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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #41  
Old 01-23-2013, 3:16 PM
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Originally Posted by EM2 View Post
Fail
Our legal system is supposed to be assumed innocent until proven otherwise.
You do not have to (and should not even attempt to) prove that you owned the magazine prior to 2000. It is on them to prove you didn't.
Get a lawyer & shut up.
This
  #42  
Old 01-23-2013, 4:40 PM
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People have been arrested for possession of large capacity magazines in the Southern California area. We've defended them and charges get dropped when the DA realizes that simple possession is not illegal.

-Gene
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  #43  
Old 01-23-2013, 6:12 PM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
People have been arrested for possession of large capacity magazines in the Southern California area. We've defended them and charges get dropped when the DA realizes that simple possession is not illegal.

-Gene
Thanks, Gene, that's helpful. It doesn't sound like these got anywhere near arraignment/hearing, is that correct? Also, do you know if there was any consideration as to whether the mag was "legal", or was the sole focus on the lack of basis for charging possession?

Thanks, again.

JR
  #44  
Old 01-23-2013, 7:32 PM
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So in other words call Gene and he'll help us out. Yet another example of gun control legislation that makes absolutely no sense.
  #45  
Old 01-23-2013, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
Thanks, Gene, that's helpful. It doesn't sound like these got anywhere near arraignment/hearing, is that correct? Also, do you know if there was any consideration as to whether the mag was "legal", or was the sole focus on the lack of basis for charging possession?

Thanks, again.

JR
One can get arraigned, but it doesn't generally get much further if you have competent firearms counsel.

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  #46  
Old 01-24-2013, 6:30 AM
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I believe that IF you have a legal mag, then it should be legal - problem comes up when you are having to explain to an LEO and WHY did they stop you?? I really see more problems than most people would want. Iam assuiming you have gone to a lot of trouble to get your CCW - why risk loosing it over a pissing match on a mag AND if you are involved in a shooting and have to go to court - you can bet you pay check that the other side is going to make a HUGE deal out of that mag..

not worth the risk
  #47  
Old 01-25-2013, 10:59 PM
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Im concerned now with using my standard capacity magazine because I have changed the body and some have pointed out this is not legal. I wish the CA laws were more clear on this. I am trying to follow the law to a T and cannot because of this mess. I guess im not bring that magazine to the range anymore. I dont think losing my permit is worth the extra 5 rounds. Yes those rounds could save my life. But I guess that just means I need to train more on reloading quicker!
  #48  
Old 01-25-2013, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
Working strictly with the syntax of your question, if YOU legally possessed the mags, I could not use them in MY CCW weapon, unless we were at a shooting range and you temporarily, while I was in your presence, loaned them to me. (P.C. 32415)

Now, if you legally posssessed the mags prior to 2000, and used them in your CCW weapon, you would not be in violation of the law. If you then used your weapon in self defense, presuming "legal" ammunition, you have done nothing for which the DA can bust you. (P.C. 32310).

Your biggest initial problem may be with responding law enforcement. They may see the mag and take you in for further discussions. You may also be asked to show that you owned the weapon prior to Jan 1, 2000. If you didn't (and the OAG Registry records you didn't) your day will worsen.

All that aside, if you empty your mag into and around the perp, I would expect you to be sued by the survivors, indicted by the DA for reckless endangerment and have your IA pull your LTC due to lack of gun control.

Mitigate the issue--carry 10.

Cheers,

JR

Don't the police usually "empty their mag" When they fire? Why would a civilian who does the same thing need to worry about reckless endangerment?
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  #49  
Old 01-27-2013, 8:48 AM
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You should keep shooting until the threat has ceased. If the person is no longer a threat and you keep shooting then you will run into trouble.
  #50  
Old 01-28-2013, 7:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Ninety View Post
Don't the police usually "empty their mag" When they fire? Why would a civilian who does the same thing need to worry about reckless endangerment?
"Don't police empty their mag..."? Not in California. We have environmental laws prohibiting excessive lead in the air.

Even in New York City, two officers recently fired only 16 rounds to stop a gunman...9 of the 16 hit bystanders. When stopping a knife-wielder in August, they fired only 12 times. They had hi-cap mags and could have emptied them.....but I digress.

"Why would a civilian who does the same thing need to worry about reckless endangerment?"

If a law enforcement officer is involved in a shooting, the shooting will be reviewed for line-of-duty and in-policy determination. Usually, they are found acceptable; if not, they can be turned over to the DA for prosecution.

When the survivors of the shot individuals sue for wrongful death or violation of civil rights, the law enforcement officer is then covered and indemnified by the agency. This means lawyers and judgement payments come from the agency, not the individual.

If you, as John Q. Public, caps somebody on your CCW, you are on your own.

First, the local police investigate to determine if your shooting was within policy and "justified". They either arrest you or let you walk. Then the DA of the jurisdiction can review the case and leave it alone or have you arrested and prosecuted. If you empty the mag and spray the locals, you can be tagged with reckless endangerment and a bunch of other stuff. All defense is on your dime.

If the local cops and DA let you walk, then the survivors can sue in civil court for "wrongful death". (Can you spell "O.J."?). This is also on your dime. Any findings and penalty assessments (they can't send you to jail) will be decided by a jury of your peers. At this point, it is probably important to be able to show restraint in your use of deadly force. Emptying the mag should be a tort attorney's best friend. But the really BFF is emptying an evil, high-capacity, BANNED magazine, which is no longer available for purchase in this state! (Please, no diatribes about the fairness of the law. It exists and attorneys will use it.)

Oh, and why are you on your own?

Section 4 of the Standard Application you signed says, in pertinent part:

"The licensee is responsible for all liability for, injury to, or death of any
person, or damage to any property which may result through any act or
omission of either the licensee or the agency that issued the license.
In the event any claim, suit, or action is brought against the agency that
issued the license, its chief officer or any of its employees, by reason of,
or in connection with any such act or omission, the licensee shall defend,
indemnify, and hold harmless the agency that issued the license, its chief
officer or any of its employees from such claim, suit, or action."


So. You are alone out there. Worse, you will be alone when you come back.

From a non-attorney who is not dispensing legal advice, I believe it is your right to carry whatever is legal. I also believe it is in your best interests to carry only those things which are readily available to your peers (members of the jury) and to use them sparingly and judiciously "in the defense of yourself and your family."

Cheers.
  #51  
Old 01-29-2013, 5:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foreppin916 View Post
Im concerned now with using my standard capacity magazine because I have changed the body and some have pointed out this is not legal. I wish the CA laws were more clear on this. I am trying to follow the law to a T and cannot because of this mess. I guess im not bring that magazine to the range anymore. I dont think losing my permit is worth the extra 5 rounds. Yes those rounds could save my life. But I guess that just means I need to train more on reloading quicker!
I have yet to see any statute cited which makes replacement of a large-capacity magazine body illegal.

The statutes anticipate that parts wear out and these magazines may require maintenance and repair. Clearly, sections 32425(a) and (b) allow the transfer of large-capacity magazines to and from gunsmiths for the purpose of maintenance, repair and modification. The type of work is not constrained or limited by statute. If a magazine can only be repaired by replacement of the body, then that is what the gunsmith would do. If the gunsmith can make that modification, then so can you. You are not manufacturing a magazine.

To ensure future success, I would advise the following (would the "innocent until guilty" crowd please look away). It will be to your advantage to keep ready any and all records which show that you repaired the magazine by changing out the body. Keeping the old broken body, or showing that it was destroyed may also be helpful. Retain these documents until such time that your attorney may need them.

Cheers,

JR

And let's not worry too much about whether a "replacement" is technically a "repair", as the entire automotive support industry will crumple.
  #52  
Old 02-17-2013, 8:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
In 2005, the CA AG provided the informal guidance in the letter located here:
http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/DOJ...2005-11-10.pdf
That link is well worth reading, thanks Dvrjon.
  #53  
Old 02-19-2013, 9:15 PM
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one of my 3 carries in sac county is a pre barbaric laws and has many 15 rounders .not illegal . although i could understand many police being misinformed and jumping up and down if there was ever a day they had to count past 10 on my mags . if the extremely hopefully never chance i had to use 15 + rounds thats going to be a real nasty day for all involved. Maybe i should carry the 30rounders in glove box now . Im sure the law would have vapors with that
  #54  
Old 02-21-2013, 11:03 PM
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My recent experience with G 19 and yes a high capacity magazine in it .
Just outside of Imperial sand dunes I get pulled over by CHP ..No lights on my small utility trailer hauling some motorcycles back to Sac .

Rather then dig through my fanny back I hand it to him with pistol and ccw/id in it .
Comes back hands me a fix it ticket and fanny back . Go's on to tell me if I'm going to carry that pistol to at least have a round in the chamber ....

Last edited by becxltoo984; 02-21-2013 at 11:06 PM..
  #55  
Old 02-22-2013, 4:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by becxltoo984 View Post
My recent experience with G 19 and yes a high capacity magazine in it .
Just outside of Imperial sand dunes I get pulled over by CHP ..No lights on my small utility trailer hauling some motorcycles back to Sac .

Rather then dig through my fanny back I hand it to him with pistol and ccw/id in it .
Comes back hands me a fix it ticket and fanny back . Go's on to tell me if I'm going to carry that pistol to at least have a round in the chamber ....
Nice CHP'r!

I'm willing to bet he was an older mature officer, not a wet behind the ears, gung-ho, rookie!
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  #56  
Old 02-22-2013, 9:00 AM
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Im not an attorney...

With that being said, Here's my playbook

If God forbid you or I have to use our Firearm for self defense...When the cavalry arrives, Speak slowly, move even slower, Offer your Identification, CCW permit, and state, " I was in fear for my life" and watch the officer write that down in his little notebook. Then say, " I would like to speak to an attorney before I make any further statements. The end.

This includes the shooting of an intruder in my home. Rule #1 DON'T VOLUNTEER INFORMATION TO THE PD WHEN YOU ARE A INVOLVED IN A SHOOTING PRIOR TO CONSULTING WITH AN ATTORNEY.
If the PD try's to intimidate you and threaten you with arrest...so be it, keep your mouth shut!


oops, a little off topic, but relevant if found to have + 10 round mags in gun you own.
Aside from saying good morning to an officer in a coffee shop, speaking to them with out counsel present when the subject of an investigation of any kind is foolish.

Edit, I am not implying you remain a total mute, just keep explanation of possession of a + 10 mag succinct and polite. Know the laws regarding such to be able to speak intelligently about it.

Last edited by sjb269; 02-22-2013 at 9:12 AM.. Reason: add info
  #57  
Old 02-22-2013, 5:40 PM
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First - for two of my CCW guns I own and have only ever owned standard capacity magazines. They were purchased legally and continue to be legal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
Your biggest initial problem may be with responding law enforcement. They may see the mag and take you in for further discussions. You may also be asked to show that you owned the weapon prior to Jan 1, 2000. If you didn't (and the OAG Registry records you didn't) your day will worsen.
Second: In the 1990s I purchased a fair number of mags for guns I did not yet own (and in most cases still do not own) - those mags were purchased here in California legally and continue to be legal.
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  #58  
Old 02-22-2013, 6:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Ninety View Post
Don't the police usually "empty their mag" When they fire?

Um, NO. I investigated several officer involved shootings as a field supervisor and watch commander, somewhere between 10-12 over the years. Not once did the officers "empty the mag" and the average was 3-4 rounds fired. That doesn't include the shootings I was in, where the least fired was a double tap, and the most was 8 rounds, 5 from a shotgun and 3 from my handgun against 3 armed suspects. One had an AK, one had a 9mm, and the other had a .32 auto. The guys with the AK and 9mm fired first.

Why would a civilian who does the same thing need to worry about reckless endangerment?

There in no crime of "reckless endangerment" in California. It is a term reserved for TV and movies. You will be required to account for, and justify every round you fire, just like I was. That's the way it should be.
I investigated a lot of citizen/homeowner shootings over the years. Only once was the homeowner arrested, and that was because he basically executed a prowler. He tampered with the crime scene and there was zero justification to shoot. A neighbor saw him put the finishing shot into him after he was down.

Back to the OP's question....if you legally own the magazines, and your permit doesn't specifically restrict their use, you can use them.
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Last edited by Ron-Solo; 02-22-2013 at 7:33 PM..
  #59  
Old 02-22-2013, 7:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by becxltoo984 View Post
My recent experience with G 19 and yes a high capacity magazine in it .
Just outside of Imperial sand dunes I get pulled over by CHP ..No lights on my small utility trailer hauling some motorcycles back to Sac .

Rather then dig through my fanny back I hand it to him with pistol and ccw/id in it .
Comes back hands me a fix it ticket and fanny back . Go's on to tell me if I'm going to carry that pistol to at least have a round in the chamber ....
Yes!! Always carry one in the chamber. Otherwise...it's an expensive hammer.
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Old 02-23-2013, 7:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by becxltoo984 View Post
My recent experience with G 19 and yes a high capacity magazine in it .
Just outside of Imperial sand dunes I get pulled over by CHP ..No lights on my small utility trailer hauling some motorcycles back to Sac .

Rather then dig through my fanny back I hand it to him with pistol and ccw/id in it .
Comes back hands me a fix it ticket and fanny back . Go's on to tell me if I'm going to carry that pistol to at least have a round in the chamber ....
Good advice, always keep a round in the chamber when carrying. If you keep it in a fanny pack and decide to leave it somewhere with kids, then you might unchamber the round. Preferably you keep the gun on your persons at all times, so you won't have to unchamber. Lastly, the only guys I know who still wear fanny packs are those with guns in them I'd recommend a holster for two reasons. Much faster to get too when you need it and not as obvious that you're carrying.
  #61  
Old 02-23-2013, 7:36 AM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
If you legally own the magazines you should use them. I do.

-Gene
This. +1
  #62  
Old 02-23-2013, 1:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Ninety View Post
Don't the police usually "empty their mag" When they fire? Why would a civilian who does the same thing need to worry about reckless endangerment?
Because the Praetorian Guard are held to a different set of laws than the one us mere plebians have to deal with.
  #63  
Old 02-23-2013, 4:29 PM
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Originally Posted by becxltoo984 View Post
Surely your joking right ? " Black Talon Ammo" from the 90's is somehow illegal ?
I hope not I've got at least 5 boxes each of 9mm 45acp 44mag. Bought em cheap when they were declared cop killers
  #64  
Old 02-24-2013, 3:49 PM
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What if I found one or two on the ground at the range? Any questions asked there?
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Old 02-24-2013, 6:58 PM
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Originally Posted by medicdude View Post
What if I found one or two on the ground at the range? Any questions asked there?
The guy who lost them will call the range and ask if they had been found.

'I found them' is one of the 'OMG, did you really say that and expect anyone to believe it?' lines. That reaction does not refute that it happens sometimes, but that narrative is simply not needed. See the Magazine Qs link in my .sig, below.
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Old 06-09-2013, 8:31 PM
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I have removed my info until I've hired an attorney. I'll reposted it after they ok my info. I'll keep you posted

Last edited by Call Me Karen; 06-09-2013 at 10:12 PM..
  #67  
Old 07-16-2013, 10:21 PM
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It seems that you can possess and use >10 round mags if you owned them in California prior to 01/01/2000. If you did not, you can neither possess or use them. You cannot, for example, buy, import, or manufacture in California any >10 round mags after 01/01/2000. Doing any of that is a felony.

You could expect that if you are found in possession of >10 round mags you could be suspected and charged for illegal possession. It's not clear how the authorities could prosecute you for that if you contended that you legally possess the mags prior to 01/01/2000. It would be useful to have dated receipts of purchase, but if you don't have them, the burden of proof that you didn't would be on the State. Of course, if you didn't reside in Ca prior to 01/01/2000, the State would be justified in assuming that your possession of the mags is illegal. Also, if the specific mags were clearly manufactured after 01/01/2000, you will be in trouble.

Folks have opined about mag "rebuild kits." If you legally possess a >10 round pre-ban mag, you may "rebuild" it. The problem is purchasing new components to convert a 10-round mag to >10 round capacity with these new components. That would clearly be illegal.

That's just my take on this. IANAL, but the lawyers among us may wish to comment...
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Old 07-16-2013, 10:26 PM
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Attorney hired...... No thanks to the one I talked to from this site
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Old 07-17-2013, 9:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neuron View Post
It seems that you can possess and use >10 round mags if you owned them in California prior to 01/01/2000. If you did not, you can neither possess or use them. You cannot, for example, buy, import, or manufacture in California any >10 round mags after 01/01/2000. Doing any of that is a felony.

You could expect that if you are found in possession of >10 round mags you could be suspected and charged for illegal possession. It's not clear how the authorities could prosecute you for that if you contended that you legally possess the mags prior to 01/01/2000. It would be useful to have dated receipts of purchase, but if you don't have them, the burden of proof that you didn't would be on the State. Of course, if you didn't reside in Ca prior to 01/01/2000, the State would be justified in assuming that your possession of the mags is illegal. Also, if the specific mags were clearly manufactured after 01/01/2000, you will be in trouble.

Folks have opined about mag "rebuild kits." If you legally possess a >10 round pre-ban mag, you may "rebuild" it. The problem is purchasing new components to convert a 10-round mag to >10 round capacity with these new components. That would clearly be illegal.

That's just my take on this. IANAL, but the lawyers among us may wish to comment...
Where in the penal code does it say it is illegal to buy?
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  #70  
Old 07-17-2013, 9:37 PM
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One of my carry guns is a HK P7-M13. The gun was discontinued before this silly issue of magazine capacity ever arose. Mine is on my carry permit and there are no commercially available magazines other than the original, factory 13 round magazines. These are what I have and what I carry. I legally possess them and it has not been an issue so far. . .
  #71  
Old 07-17-2013, 9:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neuron View Post
It seems that you can possess and use >10 round mags if you owned them in California prior to 01/01/2000. If you did not, you can neither possess or use them. You cannot, for example, buy, import, or manufacture in California any >10 round mags after 01/01/2000. Doing any of that is a felony.

You could expect that if you are found in possession of >10 round mags you could be suspected and charged for illegal possession. It's not clear how the authorities could prosecute you for that if you contended that you legally possess the mags prior to 01/01/2000. It would be useful to have dated receipts of purchase, but if you don't have them, the burden of proof that you didn't would be on the State. Of course, if you didn't reside in Ca prior to 01/01/2000, the State would be justified in assuming that your possession of the mags is illegal. Also, if the specific mags were clearly manufactured after 01/01/2000, you will be in trouble.

Folks have opined about mag "rebuild kits." If you legally possess a >10 round pre-ban mag, you may "rebuild" it. The problem is purchasing new components to convert a 10-round mag to >10 round capacity with these new components. That would clearly be illegal.

That's just my take on this. IANAL, but the lawyers among us may wish to comment...

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  #72  
Old 07-17-2013, 9:52 PM
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My boss has had his LTC for a long time and he's got his gen 2 g21 with his pre ban 13 rnd mags. Never has a problem when renewing his license.
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  #73  
Old 07-18-2013, 2:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumpy8 View Post
Where in the penal code does it say it is illegal to buy?
The Penal Code is silent on this, but we discussed all that in January 2013.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...9&postcount=30

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  #74  
Old 07-18-2013, 3:10 PM
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