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  #41  
Old 12-08-2017, 1:32 AM
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I have seen a Canadian goose put a full grown dog into retreat mode. But, if you really want a guard animal; get a Guinea Fowl or two.
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  #42  
Old 12-08-2017, 8:52 AM
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Originally Posted by squeeze View Post
I have seen a Canadian goose put a full grown dog into retreat mode. But, if you really want a guard animal; get a Guinea Fowl or two.
I had Guineas for many years and they were more allusive than aggressive. Maybe different ones have different personalities??? They sure can be good alarm systems though.
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  #43  
Old 12-08-2017, 11:50 AM
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is B&E a felony?

if so, when performing a citizen's arrest, the citizen can use up to lethal force to detain the suspect. (from what i can remember)

http://www.supremelaw.org/cc/aol2/roddy/pc.837.htm (although this page doesn't detail what kind of force can be used, but states a private citizen can do what is needed to make the arrest including breaking into a house the suspect is in for a felony.)
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Because -ohmigosh- they can add their opinions, too?
Proof we can all comment on whatever we want if it's at all related to the topic at hand!
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  #44  
Old 12-08-2017, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Scratch705 View Post
is B&E a felony?

if so, when performing a citizen's arrest, the citizen can use up to lethal force to detain the suspect. (from what i can remember)

http://www.supremelaw.org/cc/aol2/roddy/pc.837.htm (although this page doesn't detail what kind of force can be used, but states a private citizen can do what is needed to make the arrest including breaking into a house the suspect is in for a felony.)
California does not have a crime of "Breaking and Entering." The closest thing in California law is the crime of "Burglary." Burglary differs from the common law crime of Breaking and Entering in that no force is required to commit the crime.

California statutory law is kinda unusual with regard to the use of force in making an arrest. Peace officers are specifically authorized to use reasonable force to accomplish an arrest. The law allows private persons, in some cases, to use force to enter a location where an arrestee is, but not authorize the use of force against the person of the arrestee.

There is case law permitting a private person to use reasonable force in the making of an arrest. There is no source of law authorizing lethal force simply on the basis of the crime allegedly committed. For a specific repudiation of such an authority please see the U.S. Supreme Court decision in Tennessee v Garner.
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  #45  
Old 12-08-2017, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratch705 View Post
is B&E a felony?

if so, when performing a citizen's arrest, the citizen can use up to lethal force to detain the suspect. (from what i can remember)

http://www.supremelaw.org/cc/aol2/roddy/pc.837.htm (although this page doesn't detail what kind of force can be used, but states a private citizen can do what is needed to make the arrest including breaking into a house the suspect is in for a felony.)
You can only use lethal force to apprehend people guilty of violent felonies. In UT, burglary is considered a violent and life threatening felony but, in CA it isn't.
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  #46  
Old 12-08-2017, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
You can only use lethal force to apprehend people guilty of violent felonies. In UT, burglary is considered a violent and life threatening felony but, in CA it isn't.
At what point does a burglary become a home invasion? I can respect not shooting someone who is there for your stuff and doesn't know anyone is home or whatever, but if they come in knowing people are home, is that not a different thing?

Seems it should be.
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  #47  
Old 12-08-2017, 1:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post
California does not have a crime of "Breaking and Entering." The closest thing in California law is the crime of "Burglary." Burglary differs from the common law crime of Breaking and Entering in that no force is required to commit the crime.

California statutory law is kinda unusual with regard to the use of force in making an arrest. Peace officers are specifically authorized to use reasonable force to accomplish an arrest. The law allows private persons, in some cases, to use force to enter a location where an arrestee is, but not authorize the use of force against the person of the arrestee.

There is case law permitting a private person to use reasonable force in the making of an arrest. There is no source of law authorizing lethal force simply on the basis of the crime allegedly committed. For a specific repudiation of such an authority please see the U.S. Supreme Court decision in Tennessee v Garner.
To be clear, Tenn v Garner authirizes an officer to use deadly force if but not, as you say, simply on the basis of the crime committed, but if ithe officer is threatened OR there is probable cause that a crime involving the infliction or threat of serious physical harm has been committed.

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(I)f the suspect threatens the officer with a weapon or there is probable cause to believe that he has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm, deadly force may be used if necessary to prevent escape, and if, where feasible, some warning has been given.
My quick read of the decision is that what the court is saying is even if a statute in not unconstitutional if it authorizes the police to use deadly force if a particular crime is committed, unthreatened officer may not resort to deadly force unless they have PC to believe such force was applied.
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  #48  
Old 12-08-2017, 1:59 PM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Guard geese work better because, not many lowlifes know anything about geese and it throws them a new curve that they can't easily process.
Washing down goose poop will make you wish you had a dog.
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  #49  
Old 12-08-2017, 2:37 PM
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Originally Posted by cvigue View Post
At what point does a burglary become a home invasion? I can respect not shooting someone who is there for your stuff and doesn't know anyone is home or whatever, but if they come in knowing people are home, is that not a different thing?

Seems it should be.
Not all burglaries happen when the home is occupied. So, many times a burglary can not turn into a home invasion. An occupied home is a different matter, then PC 198.5 may come into play. Of course, regular self defense laws may come into play to. It will come down to the individual scenario and, in the end, what a jury ends up deciding.
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  #50  
Old 12-08-2017, 2:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
Washing down goose poop will make you wish you had a dog.
We've got geese and 9 dogs. I don't wash down any poop. It magically disappears in the brush.
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  #51  
Old 12-08-2017, 3:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvigue View Post
At what point does a burglary become a home invasion? I can respect not shooting someone who is there for your stuff and doesn't know anyone is home or whatever, but if they come in knowing people are home, is that not a different thing?

Seems it should be.
Home invasions are classified as a robbery, requiring force or fear to be used. The use of force would have to be against a person since robbery is a crime against a person not a property crime, as burglary is.
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  #52  
Old 12-08-2017, 3:17 PM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Not all burglaries happen when the home is occupied. So, many times a burglary can not turn into a home invasion. An occupied home is a different matter, then PC 198.5 may come into play. Of course, regular self defense laws may come into play to. It will come down to the individual scenario and, in the end, what a jury ends up deciding.
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Originally Posted by P5Ret View Post
Home invasions are classified as a robbery, requiring force or fear to be used. The use of force would have to be against a person since robbery is a crime against a person not a property crime, as burglary is.
That's my question; is a burglary with people home a home invasion or not? Does it really revolve around something as nebulous as "I was afraid", because no sh*t, any normal person would be instantly afraid in that situation. Shouldn't even be a discussion IMO.

Having said that, nothing I own is worth killing someone over, that's just my life choice. The only thing I'm conflicted about on that stance are thieves who are or might take weapons that they might then cause further harm with. I wouldn't want to be in that situation, it's a hard call.

On the other hand if there's any reasonable chance they are endangering me or my family, the gloves come off immediately; I cannot tolerate that risk.
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  #53  
Old 12-08-2017, 6:28 PM
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Originally Posted by cvigue View Post
That's my question; is a burglary with people home a home invasion or not? Does it really revolve around something as nebulous as "I was afraid", because no sh*t, any normal person would be instantly afraid in that situation. Shouldn't even be a discussion IMO.
Not necessarily. For example someone removes property from a garage while the home owner is in the house, and never knew that someone was in the garage.

Just saying I was afraid may not cut it either. Someone walks in on a burglary, burglar bolts out the back. I think we can all agree could be a fearful situation. Does it change the burglary to a home invasion robbery? Probably not. Burglar uses force or threatens force to escape and we get a whole new ball game.

And yeah I'm with you none of the things I own are worth shooting someone for.
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  #54  
Old 12-09-2017, 8:43 AM
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California civil law makes any retaliation risky here.
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  #55  
Old 12-09-2017, 8:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Jimi Jah View Post
California civil law makes any retaliation risky here.
yup i think so too.

what i can't seem to understand is as a home owner (correct and educate me if i'm wrong)... i never invited the perp to break into my house, never wanted him or her to be in my house in the first place, so if i or my family, kids, felt threatened, we can't fight back without first calling 911, then on a recorded line, giving the perp a warning to get F out and warning we have firearm to defend ourselves as needed, then if SHTF we can then shoot only to stop them... and if they get injured due to breaking into my house, they can come back and sue me later.. is that correct?
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  #56  
Old 12-09-2017, 10:08 AM
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I do not understand your question to be about what you must do to avoid criminal liability. I believe you are asking if you can be sued even if you do everything possible to avoid resorting to force. Yes, they can always sue. The trick is finding an attorney to take the case and that usually means selling it to a contingency attorney. Contingency attorneys generally won't touch a case unless there is a good balance of three factors. The certainty of winning, the certainty of collecting if you win, and the costs and difficulty of handling the case. There are rare exceptions, such as when the case is a loss leader for the attorney. They know it isn't worth taking and expect to lose or recover little, but they take the case because it's good PR and may generate more clients. Hence they sue a unpopular defendant (say a police department) realizing that they can't win. The lose but win big, especially if there is a collateral advantage to be gained by the law firm, in addition to clients, such as if someone had political ambitions.

Last edited by Chewy65; 12-09-2017 at 10:35 AM..
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  #57  
Old 12-09-2017, 2:06 PM
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Originally Posted by cusco19 View Post
yup i think so too.

what i can't seem to understand is as a home owner (correct and educate me if i'm wrong)... i never invited the perp to break into my house, never wanted him or her to be in my house in the first place, so if i or my family, kids, felt threatened, we can't fight back without first calling 911, then on a recorded line, giving the perp a warning to get F out and warning we have firearm to defend ourselves as needed, then if SHTF we can then shoot only to stop them... and if they get injured due to breaking into my house, they can come back and sue me later.. is that correct?
You can be sued for almost ANYTHING. However, that doesn't mean you'll loose the suit. It will cost you time and effort at the very least though.
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  #58  
Old 12-09-2017, 4:43 PM
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Originally Posted by P5Ret View Post
Not necessarily. For example someone removes property from a garage while the home owner is in the house, and never knew that someone was in the garage.
If I hear something out there and open the door, it then becomes a robbery unless they immediately flee with their hands full? This coddling of criminals is goofy. I'm not in favor of just shooting people up but it's sad that it's actually criminal to defend property with force. It's a matter of morality vs legality.
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  #59  
Old 12-09-2017, 4:59 PM
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Letís see, someone breaks into a home. Homeowner is in fear for their life. They shoot the invader and he dies before police arrive.
Two shots to the chest.
I canít see the homeowner guilty of any crime. Yet there is evidence of an armed or unarmed intruder. You shot because the intruder continued toward you after being confronted. The homeowner was in fear for their safety and life.
The only crime I see is trespassing, Burgulary, and attempted assault by the intruder he approaches the homeowner instead of fleeing.
Intruder Guilty of breaking the law. Homeowner guilty of exercising his California Inalienable Rights in Article 1 Section 1 of the California constitution.
Confronting anyone outside the Home may be unlawful depending on circumstances.
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  #60  
Old 12-09-2017, 5:48 PM
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Two shots to the chest.
wouldn't and couldn't they say you could've stopped at 1 shot, since once they stop, you shouldn't continue to shoot again as that's murder?

overall i think the law is weird; but could be i don't know or haven't learned enough about it yet... but imo, it's weird as in too many gray areas. seems even if you follow protocol down to the dotted I and cross the T.. it may still be a toss up in court to prove your actions defending your home; which no one asked the perp to enter in the first place.
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  #61  
Old 12-09-2017, 6:07 PM
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Originally Posted by cusco19 View Post
wouldn't and couldn't they say you could've stopped at 1 shot, since once they stop, you shouldn't continue to shoot again as that's murder?

overall i think the law is weird; but could be i don't know or haven't learned enough about it yet... but imo, it's weird as in too many gray areas. seems even if you follow protocol down to the dotted I and cross the T.. it may still be a toss up in court to prove your actions defending your home; which no one asked the perp to enter in the first place.
You assume that they stop with one shot. At least one CCW qualification instructor teaches 2 shots to center mass. I believe that some teach one to the body and one to the head. All teach that you fire until the threat ceases. If the threat is almost on top of you there may not be time to verify that the threat is stopped. If the threat is down and not reaching, that is one thing. If he is moving and may be reaching for a weapon that is another. It all boils down to the individual facts. You are absolutely correct that if mean that if you follow all the rules things may come down to a question for a jury.
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  #62  
Old 12-11-2017, 9:10 AM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
You can be sued for almost ANYTHING. However, that doesn't mean you'll loose the suit. It will cost you time and effort at the very least though.
Even if you win, you loose. The USA doesn't have "looser pays" civil protections like in the EU.

When you spend your life savings defending yourself getting a civil case dismissed, you won't feel like you won anything but the poor house.
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Old 12-11-2017, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Jimi Jah View Post
Even if you win, you loose. The USA doesn't have "looser pays" civil protections like in the EU.

When you spend your life savings defending yourself getting a civil case dismissed, you won't feel like you won anything but the poor house.
What is the point of the input? The fundamental issue here is self-defense. You believe that you are going to be killed, so you shoot.

If you worry about possible lawsuits, you may delay the shot or miss...then you're dead.

Ah, got it, no Poor House to worry about.
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Old 12-11-2017, 2:27 PM
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In practicality it makes little difference who pays attorney fees (costs of court are awarded in certain circumstances to the winner but the greatest part of litigant costs are the attorney fees). There are always exceptions, but in most cases plaintiffs are judgment proof in cases brought by the person you shoot or their survivors. The exceptions most often being when the shootings are bad and the families of victims of the opioid epidemic. Some of them come from good families.
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  #65  
Old 12-11-2017, 3:58 PM
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This is a wonderful discussion that I always hoped I would be able to read on here. There's one contradiction that puts home invasion/burglary into a life-threatening situation under most circumstances: They would need tools to break in, be it a crowbar, knife, etc. Those same tools can be used to kill somebody, which leads to reasonable assumption that your life is in danger. If I stick my gun in their direction from 20' and yell drop the crowbar/knife/screwdriver and they don't do it, they are destined for a different world because they are brandishing a weapon and walking towards me.
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