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  #1441  
Old 04-21-2018, 1:16 PM
blahblah blahblah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ers1978 View Post
That’s good news! Now, on the forward grip issue, are these allowed if we register our guns as “assault weapons”? I thought, before all this RAW stuff started, that forward grips were a NO-NO. If we register without a forward grip and add one later are we ok? Is this our chance to legally have a forward grip?
If you are talking about **rifles** then it doesn't matter. You can add or remove ANY "evil" feature after registering, as already stated. The only thing you cannot do after modifying is muck with the bullet button.

Last edited by blahblah; 04-21-2018 at 1:26 PM..
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  #1442  
Old 04-21-2018, 1:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
You can remove and replace any BB for any BB at any time.
I would not be so quick to provide that advice to people!!!

What the regulations actually say is:

Quote:
11 CCR § 5477
§ 5477. Registration of Assault Weapons Pursuant to Penal Code Section 30900(b)(1); Post-Registration Modification of Registered Assault Weapons, Prohibition.
(a) The release mechanism for an ammunition feeding device on an assault weapon registered pursuant to Penal Code section 30900, subdivision (b)(1) shall not be changed after the assault weapon is registered. A weapon's eligibility for registration pursuant to Penal Code section 30900, subdivision (b)(1) depends, in part, on its release mechanism. Any alteration to the release mechanism converts the assault weapon into a different weapon from the one that was registered.
(b) The prohibition in subdivision (a) does not extend to the repair or like-kind replacement of the mechanism.
(c) This prohibition in subdivision (a) does not extend to a firearm that is undergoing the deregistration process pursuant to section 5478. Written confirmation from the Department that acknowledges the owner's intent to deregister his or her assault weapon pursuant to section 5478 shall be proof the deregistration process has been initiated.
Now, don't argue with me that that is crap and regulatory overreach. Amen, brother!

But the fact remains we have no idea what "like-kind replacement" means.

I really wonder if anyone has any insights or experience about perhaps resubmitting registration with a different release mechanism after getting approval once already?
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  #1443  
Old 04-21-2018, 7:11 PM
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
I would not be so quick to provide that advice to people!!!



What the regulations actually say is:







Now, don't argue with me that that is crap and regulatory overreach. Amen, brother!



But the fact remains we have no idea what "like-kind replacement" means.



I really wonder if anyone has any insights or experience about perhaps resubmitting registration with a different release mechanism after getting approval once already?


I mean technically speaking they defined a bullet button to be *like* a standard magazine release themselves in redefining what “fixed magazine” means. They are both release mechanisms in which you do not need to separate the action of a firearm to release the magazine. They are like each other, in fact they are the exact same, as a bullet button is really just a shroud that surrounds the release mechanism itself.

Who wants to be the test case?

Or you can just grow out your fingernails and file them down, if anyone questions you just say you play the guitar?


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  #1444  
Old 04-21-2018, 7:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blahblah View Post

But the fact remains we have no idea what "like-kind replacement" means.
Yes we do:

(f) “Bullet-button” means a product requiring a tool to remove an ammunition feeding device or magazine by depressing a recessed button or lever shielded by a magazine lock. A bullet-button equipped fully functional semiautomatic firearm does not meet the fixed magazine definition under Penal Code section 30515(b).

Notice how the definition does not specify mechanisms, color, or anything other than it's basic function (depressing a recessed button or lever shielded by a magazine lock). It doesn't say anything about having one shaped like a banana or any specific brand.

By my count, towards the end, there were literally two dozen companies making BB's including cheap Chinese knockoffs. There is no way to tell where any of these generic BB's came from and they were all the same legally.

They continue to be the same legally, except now they do not meet the fixed mag definition.

The question about Raddlock or any of the toggle on and toggle off variety is a separate question- are they considered BB's legally? Fabio said no, a few others questioned it. I don't know the answer other than when it's ON it's a BB and when it's OFF it definitely isn't.

The truth is if you take ANY AR-15 BB and slightly screw out the retaining nut and make it very loose and sloppy you can get it to function as a standard mag release. It's ghetto but it works, and I can't find the difference between doing that and switching a raddlock.

I reg'd over 15 rifles and many had BB's I had made myself. Many where very different and unique. They all met the basic definition of a "depressing a recessed button or lever shielded by a magazine lock". No one ever questioned what brand they were or specifically how they functioned beyond that.

Case and point: if your BB breaks tomorrow what do you do? I would have to make another one on some rarer rifles, and it would probably be slightly different. No big deal, it DOESN'T matter. I have a few spares for the AR's and they all are slightly different in different colors.
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  #1445  
Old 04-22-2018, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
By my count, towards the end, there were literally two dozen companies making BB's including cheap Chinese knockoffs. There is no way to tell where any of these generic BB's came from and they were all the same legally.
This is a very AR-15-centric argument though.

Look at the diversity of designs and configurations for AK's below...
This is not theoretical for me. I have a shytty Raddlock that isn't working well and want to replace it. But I've already registered and not sure if I could have problems by changing it to a more simple device.









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Last edited by blahblah; 04-22-2018 at 10:57 AM..
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  #1446  
Old 04-22-2018, 7:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
This is a very AR-15-centric argument though.

Look at the diversity of designs and configurations for AK's below...
This is not theoretical for me. I have a shytty Raddlock that isn't working well and want to replace it. But I've already registered and not sure if I could have problems by changing it to a more simple device.
It's not at all a AR centric argument, as I stated most of my BB's are custom made and bear no resemblance to one another. I'm still not understanding what you think the law and regulations state when they clearly do not call for anything other than a "depressing a recessed button or lever shielded by a magazine lock".

They are all the same considering the definition. People are imagining things that are not explicitly or implicitly stated anywhere in the law or regulation. We have every possible idea what they mean by "like kind" when the clearly define what a BB is. The shape, size, color, etc. means NOTHING.

These bizarre arguments that seem to eliminate from nowhere cause lots of misunderstandings. It's similar to those insisting that the "DOJ wants us to keep the rifle in the pictured configuration" when they have not stated that anywhere or even implied it anywhere. They have actually done the EXACT opposite and said in their FAQ that the only things we can't do are to go shorter than 26".

Why continue to insist that there is doubt when there is none?


What changes can I make to my assault weapon after I register it?

The AB 1135/SB 880 assault weapons regulations created by DOJ state that the bullet button style release must remain on the firearm. The owner should not shorten a rifle barrel below 16” or the overall length under 26” (Penal Code 33210 and Penal Code 17170). The owner should not shorten a shotgun barrel below 18” or the overall length under 26” (Penal Code § 33210 and Penal Code § 17180). See the “key terms” section of the AB 1135/SB 880 assault weapons regulations.
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  #1447  
Old 04-22-2018, 7:37 PM
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you can post the "facts" and the next day state DOJ will change them again.
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  #1448  
Old 04-23-2018, 8:42 AM
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Quick question, can you register an assault weapon (AR) without a butt stock?
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  #1449  
Old 04-23-2018, 8:44 AM
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Originally Posted by sirsloth View Post
Quick question, can you register an assault weapon (AR) without a butt stock?
Sure but why? Throw one on there just to avoid any confusion.
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  #1450  
Old 04-23-2018, 8:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirsloth View Post
Quick question, can you register an assault weapon (AR) without a butt stock?
As long as overall length is greater than 30".
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  #1451  
Old 04-23-2018, 9:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
What changes can I make to my assault weapon after I register it?

The AB 1135/SB 880 assault weapons regulations created by DOJ state that the bullet button style release must remain on the firearm. The owner should not shorten a rifle barrel below 16” or the overall length under 26” (Penal Code 33210 and Penal Code 17170). The owner should not shorten a shotgun barrel below 18” or the overall length under 26” (Penal Code § 33210 and Penal Code § 17180). See the “key terms” section of the AB 1135/SB 880 assault weapons regulations.
So....in order to register an AW, it has to be 30" OAL or greater but after registration we can legally shorten to a minimum of 26" OAL? Is that actually in the text???
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  #1452  
Old 04-23-2018, 9:03 AM
FelixEstrella FelixEstrella is offline
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It's in the DOJ FAQ. Search the thread(s). It's been discussed.
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  #1453  
Old 04-23-2018, 9:16 AM
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Originally Posted by FelixEstrella View Post
It's in the DOJ FAQ. Search the thread(s). It's been discussed.
Found it, thanks.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...2#post21460952
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  #1454  
Old 04-23-2018, 9:41 AM
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Originally Posted by shaocaholica View Post
So....in order to register an AW, it has to be 30" OAL or greater but after registration we can legally shorten to a minimum of 26" OAL? Is that actually in the text???
The basics of it (and yes it's supported by the penal code, the AW regulations, and the DOJ AW faq as you found) is that you cannot register something that was not legal to own during 2001-2016, which means you cannot register something that is less than 30" overall length.

But after it becomes a Registered Assault Weapon, it can be reconfigured to add or remove any number of AW "features" - you can put whatever legally owned magazines in it that you want, you can put any grips/stocks on it you want, you can make the OAL as short as 26"...

The only things you can't change are:
  1. Changing the magazine release mechanism to a different kind of magazine release mechanism
  2. Changing anything that would violate other laws, such as the laws regarding SBRs, suppressors, machineguns, etc.
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Last edited by cockedandglocked; 04-23-2018 at 9:45 AM..
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  #1455  
Old 04-23-2018, 1:36 PM
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I'm about to joint register two firearms. So, I could not figure out if I can add more than one firearm at a time. Is that possible? Does that mean $15 x 2 firearm $30 x 2 applicants = $60.00 total?

TIA
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  #1456  
Old 04-23-2018, 2:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post

The only things you can't change are:
  1. Changing the magazine release mechanism to a different kind of magazine release mechanism
Not understanding where this appears anywhere. Different kind of magazine release? You mean different in the sense of a fixed mag or a standard mag release, then I get it.

But people are confused, and they seem to think or would read that statement that it means you can't change the BB you have on the rifle. Meaning if it breaks and you have no exact same model from the exact same manufacturer in the same color and you replace a Prince 50 with another brand then the swat team comes crashing in.

I am making the argument that it doesn't matter. You can:

1) Change the brand / make / model of any BB at any time. No, it dosen't have to the same one in the reg picture. It could be different size, shape, mechanism, brand, model, etc. You could take a machined aluminum AK-47 style BB and replace it with a stamped steel version from Solar.

2) You can do #1 IF it continues to meet their definition of a BB:
“Bullet-button” means a product requiring a tool to remove an ammunition feeding device or magazine by depressing a recessed button or lever shielded by a magazine lock."

So if I had a BB that was a recessed button style and somehow there was a lever style available, I could switch to that. They clearly say "button or lever" is fine. In fact, I registered an HK with a button AND a lever mag release, both shrouded.

3) A Raddlock is a gray area, or any style that can switch ON and OFF. No one knows if they are, or ever were, legal. For me to own and use one I would NEVER switch to OFF inside of CA.


This is the Reg text that makes me come to this conclusion:

§ 5471

“Bullet-button” means a product requiring a tool to remove an ammunition feeding device or magazine by depressing a recessed button or lever shielded by a magazine lock.


§ 5477

(a) The release mechanism for an ammunition feeding device on an assault weapon registered pursuant to Penal Code section 30900, subdivision (b)(1) shall not be changed after the assault weapon is registered. A weapon's eligibility for registration pursuant to Penal Code section 30900, subdivision (b)(1) depends, in part, on its release mechanism. Any alteration to the release mechanism converts the assault weapon into a different weapon from the one that was registered.
(b) The prohibition in subdivision (a) does not extend to the repair or like-kind replacement of the mechanism.


So, a BB is classified as "depressing a recessed button or lever shielded by a magazine lock". "It shall not be changed" after registration. "Any alteration" to the BB converts it into a magical new assault weapon. By alteration, they mean FROM THE DEFINITION THEY STATED. So as long as it still requires "depressing a recessed button or lever shielded by a magazine lock", then it HAS NOT BEEN ALTERED. If it still functions in their definition, then it's a BB and has not been altered.

This is reinforced by the FAQ text:

What changes can I make to my assault weapon after I register it?

The AB 1135/SB 880 assault weapons regulations created by DOJ state that the bullet button style release must remain on the firearm. The owner should not shorten a rifle barrel below 16” or the overall length under 26” (Penal Code 33210 and Penal Code 17170). The owner should not shorten a shotgun barrel below 18” or the overall length under 26” (Penal Code § 33210 and Penal Code § 17180). See the “key terms” section of the AB 1135/SB 880 assault weapons regulations.


So the BB "must remain" on the firearm. In fact, notice how it it says the "bullet button style release". It does not say that we can never remove or replace the BB and must adhere to the design pictured in the photo. It simply needs to be a "like kind" replacement that functions as "depressing a recessed button or lever shielded by a magazine lock". Any alteration to that functional definition is illegal, including switching something over to make it no longer function like their definition while in the state of CA.

They clearly wrote things poorly as usual, which leads people to believe they are "locked in" to all kinds of crazy stuff. But I can't imagine any other logically reading of these underground regs and public statements of how their unconstitutional system works.
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Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

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  #1457  
Old 04-23-2018, 2:14 PM
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I need help.

I click the box for my one item, click the Checkout button and I get an error. Trying to resubmit. Never goes to my pending cart or do I have pending invoices. I can't get to the billing page.

I even called them and no one picks up.
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  #1458  
Old 04-23-2018, 2:19 PM
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Originally Posted by lone shooter View Post
I'm about to joint register two firearms. So, I could not figure out if I can add more than one firearm at a time. Is that possible? Does that mean $15 x 2 firearm $30 x 2 applicants = $60.00 total?

TIA
$30 total, in your scenario.

Each $15 application can have unlimited firearms, and you'd have to submit 1 application for each registrant.
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  #1459  
Old 04-23-2018, 2:22 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
$30 total, in your scenario.

Each $15 application can have unlimited firearms, and you'd have to submit 1 application for each registrant.
That's the least of my worries. I cannot figure out how to add another firearm nor even get to the pay page for one firearm.

I'm about to give up!
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  #1460  
Old 04-23-2018, 2:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
Not understanding where this appears anywhere. Different kind of magazine release? You mean different in the sense of a fixed mag or a standard mag release, then I get it.
Yes that is what I meant, as in changing from BB to regular, or vice versa
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Last edited by cockedandglocked; 04-23-2018 at 2:25 PM..
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  #1461  
Old 04-23-2018, 2:24 PM
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Originally Posted by lone shooter View Post
That's the least of my worries. I cannot figure out how to add another firearm nor even get to the pay page for one firearm.

I'm about to give up!
Try a different web browser and/or device. People have been reporting that certain devices (iPads, etc.) and certain web browsers have been having issues on their website.

I used Firefox on a Windows 10 PC, had no issues.


Make sure you re-check the "I agree" box at the top of the application before you click "submit". Even if you checked the box in the beginning, it gets unchecked when you upload your photos. Maybe that's the error you're getting?
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2018 CA Legislation Quick-Reference & Statuses

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  #1462  
Old 04-23-2018, 2:31 PM
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Using WIN10 PC with IE11. I'll try edge.

Thanks.
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  #1463  
Old 04-23-2018, 2:31 PM
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Lone shooter, I am also receiving malfunctions. I have tried internet explorer 11 and Microsoft Edge, so I’ll try Firefox next
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  #1464  
Old 04-23-2018, 2:35 PM
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I have had no issues with the CFARS website submitting applications using safari on a MacBook pro laptop. No issues at all.
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  #1465  
Old 04-23-2018, 3:04 PM
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Lone shooter, I am also receiving malfunctions. I have tried internet explorer 11 and Microsoft Edge, so I’ll try Firefox next
Geez. Edge worked a tad better but not by much. Please let me know about FF.
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  #1466  
Old 04-23-2018, 3:42 PM
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Geez. Edge worked a tad better but not by much. Please let me know about FF.
I had zero issues with Chrome.
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  #1467  
Old 04-23-2018, 3:59 PM
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Yeah, jumped on an iPad with chrome and finished up.

Thanks
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  #1468  
Old 04-23-2018, 6:53 PM
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Ok my time waiting for my registration letter is finished. Submitted 7 rifles on 3/6/2018 and got a letter dated 4/19/2018 that was sent on 4/20/2018. Received today 4/23/2018
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Old 04-23-2018, 9:31 PM
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Ok my time waiting for my registration letter is finished. Submitted 7 rifles on 3/6/2018 and got a letter dated 4/19/2018 that was sent on 4/20/2018. Received today 4/23/2018
Submitted 2 rifles on 1/8/18 and I’m still waiting. Called 2 weeks ago and said I had to wait for 120 days to pass before they will look into the progress. No corrections pending and shows in progress. Same for my wife who is a co registrant.

Nothing crazy about the rifles besides the manufacturer wasn’t on the drop down list. I provided a link to the manufacturer website of the rifles that I purchased from my local Gun store in the comment box.
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  #1470  
Old 04-23-2018, 9:52 PM
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Firefox worked for me.
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  #1471  
Old 04-24-2018, 5:43 AM
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One of the guns that I think I will have to register is one that my 12 year old and I built for him as a father son project. It’s a 11” M4 with collapsible butstock and a permed 6” flashhider. The gun was build for my son, both the upper and the lower were built from parts and it was always intended to be his. Converting it to a non AW just seems like too much work and money but could I simply remove the gas tube and avoid registration, that way it can be his on his 18th birthday?
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Old 04-24-2018, 7:16 AM
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One of the guns that I think I will have to register is one that my 12 year old and I built for him as a father son project. It’s a 11” M4 with collapsible butstock and a permed 6” flashhider. The gun was build for my son, both the upper and the lower were built from parts and it was always intended to be his. Converting it to a non AW just seems like too much work and money but could I simply remove the gas tube and avoid registration, that way it can be his on his 18th birthday?


Consensus is that just removing the gas tube is not enough to make it not semi auto.


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Old 04-24-2018, 8:02 AM
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Be aware also that when you transfer it to him when he's 18 it'll still need to be kept in non-AW configuration.

Personally, I would install a fixed magazine mechanism of your choice, so he can still use it exactly the same as it's configured now, and still be semi-auto. It'll just be a slightly bigger pain to change mags, but it was already a pain anyways with the BB.
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Last edited by cockedandglocked; 04-24-2018 at 8:13 AM..
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Old 04-24-2018, 9:34 AM
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I apologize if this has already been answered. I searched and could not find.

I bought my AR as a lower receiver only through a calguns.net group buy back in 2005 (I think). I have no idea who the seller was. I don’t even know the zip code. All I remember is that I went to a hole in the wall law office in the east bay somewhere and they were selling lowers like hot cakes.

Does anyone remember that situation?

If not, what should I put down on the registration info for business, zip code, etc. when I legitimately cannot remember?
Anyone care to comment on this? What do we put down when we don't have exact seller data? (no company name, address, etc.)
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Old 04-24-2018, 12:18 PM
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hi, not sure if this has been covered, but I tried searching and googling. since shotguns are a bit different than rifles in terms of laws, I just want to double check:

if I register a BB-equipped shotgun like a VEPR-12, after registration do I have to keep the BB on?

thanks
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Old 04-24-2018, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Xyclopx View Post
hi, not sure if this has been covered, but I tried searching and googling. since shotguns are a bit different than rifles in terms of laws, I just want to double check:

if I register a BB-equipped shotgun like a VEPR-12, after registration do I have to keep the BB on?

thanks
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Old 04-24-2018, 1:14 PM
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The latest guide as of this post says muzzle devices need to be permanently attached if they are necessary to reach 30"+ OAL but I'm pretty sure every Tavor bullpup sold in CA did not have their extended muzzle devices permanently attached. So is this just a mistake? Federal requirements do no require permanent attachment of muzzle devices that contribute to OAL.
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Old 04-24-2018, 1:26 PM
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Originally Posted by shaocaholica View Post
The latest guide as of this post says muzzle devices need to be permanently attached if they are necessary to reach 30"+ OAL but I'm pretty sure every Tavor bullpup sold in CA did not have their extended muzzle devices permanently attached. So is this just a mistake? Federal requirements do no require permanent attachment of muzzle devices that contribute to OAL.
It used to be that you only needed to permanently attach a muzzle device to reach a min barrel length of 16".

With the recent changes, I do not know whether the muzzle device needs to be permanent to count towards OAL.

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Old 04-24-2018, 1:46 PM
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Originally Posted by DrewTheBrave View Post
It used to be that you only needed to permanently attach a muzzle device to reach a min barrel length of 16".

With the recent changes, I do not know whether the muzzle device needs to be permanent to count towards OAL.

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SBR laws didn't change... still needs to be permanent to reach 16", same as before.

The AW laws don't make any mention of barrel length, just overall firearm length (which needs to be 30" pre-registration, 26" post-registration) and the muzzle device only must be permanent if the overall length would be <30" or <26" (respectively) without it.
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Last edited by cockedandglocked; 04-24-2018 at 1:48 PM..
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Old 04-24-2018, 1:48 PM
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I was asked at the beginning of last week to correct the manufacturer info. (they needed to add my mom and pop shop to the list) and I submitted again the correct manufacturer. I got my approval letter in the mail yesterday about 8 days past since they sent the email asking for corrections and the day I got the final letter.

Just an update for y'all. Oh and I followed Cockedandglocked's instructions to the letter with no major issues.

Thanks calguns and cockedandglocked for the thread and assistance.
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