|
2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel. |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
#1
|
||||
|
||||
Nichols Vs. Newsom (was Brown) update...
https://www.supremecourt.gov/search....ic/23a274.html
https://www.supremecourt.gov/search....ic/23-526.html // // Case info -- Librarian // 12 - 07 - 2022 Pre-trial motions must be in by Aug 31 2023; looks like trial September 2023? His (Nichols') website has updates if you scroll down, last update being 11/14/2020 talking about the case's 10th year: https://californiaopencarry.com/stat...carry-lawsuit/ He's planning on getting a lawyer for SCOTUS (and/or en banc) last I checked. Apparently Michel & Associates are maintaining a document page for this case: http://michellawyers.com/nichols-v-harris/ Last substantive filing seems to be from the court on 2/27/18. Seems to be on hold for Young vs Hawaii. Case seems to have begun 11/30/2011 ===================================== I saw on the opencarry blog that Nichols brief to the 9th was due yesterday, but didn't see a link.. Also, I'm noticing that there isn't a lot of talk on here about this case.. It seems to me a win for Nichols would virtually force CA to embrace Shall Issue, so why no excitement about this case? ============================ Last edited by Kestryll; 11-28-2023 at 9:36 PM.. |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Maybe because it's being heard in the 9th circuit and everyone pretty much knows how it will end?
__________________
"Did I say "republic?" By God, yes, I said "republic!" Long live the glorious republic of the United States of America. Damn democracy. It is a fraudulent term used, often by ignorant persons but no less often by intellectual fakers, to describe an infamous mixture of socialism, miscegenation, graft, confiscation of property and denial of personal rights to individuals whose virtuous principles make them offensive." - Westbrook Pegler |
#3
|
||||
|
||||
Don't know if this page is still current: http://michellawyers.com/nichols-v-harris/
__________________
ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
The Liberal Pols and the Judges on the Ninth that serve them have an agenda of "divide and conquer". They have divided OC and CC as two serperate things under the Keep and Bear Clause of the 2A. Supplementing their ongoing, "Death of A Thousand Cuts" program. So an OC win will likely mean death to Shall Issue as far as the Ninth and the state of Commyfornia is concerned. JM2c |
#5
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
That's why we won't get OC. We either get the "two step analysis" where "carry is not the core of the right, therefore
__________________
NRA Benefactor Member |
#6
|
||||
|
||||
I still blame Charles Nichols for the Peruta decision. If he hadn't gone all history major in his brief, I think we'd have shall issue statewide.
__________________
God may have made men, but Samuel Colt made them equal. Send me pics of your: Colt Detective Special, AMT Hardballer, pre-64 Winchester Model 70. I'm looking for them. |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Mr. Nichols is not very likeable, and Im not convinced he knows what he is doing or why, but Peruta is absolutely not his fault in any way. One thing that makes no sense is Mr. Nichols asking for his case to be stayed. He should be seeking a full decision asap. He seeks very specific relief that the Peruta panel purposefully (and in my view improperly) ignored. He wants only loaded open carry which is flatly banned, no real exceptions. I quicky scanned his latest motion for a stay and he is arguing that the contents of his opening brief depend upon the final outcome of Peruta. Maybe I am just too thick to understand, but I thought Nichols entire argument was basically "that Peruta case was wrong because concealed carry can never be the right." If I understand Mr. Nichols arguments correctly, then it would appearthe outcome of Peruta is totally irrelevant to his demand for loaded open carry. Why he wants a stay is hard to fathom. But the Peruta decision is not in any way his fault or his doing in my opinion, and I dont see what the Peruta decision has to do with his loaded open carry claim? Last edited by Elgatodeacero; 07-21-2016 at 5:23 PM.. |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
I think Nichols is actually fairly clever for asking for his case to be held pending Peruta. If not, then the courts could craft, in one fell swoop, an explanation to deny ALL carry cases, open or concealed, without telegraphing HOW ahead of time. That gives the courts the advantage. By forcing them to do it piecemeal, they can't craft a grand strategy, but rather a piecemeal one, including increasing the chances of errors on the court's side. There's only a marginal time gain to be had by not staying pending Peruta; and further, if courts really want to drag things out, there's nothing we can do. So if you don't stay Nichols... the case can be delayed indefinitely, all dependent on if the courts want to. If you DO stay it, Nichols will wait for a long-winded case that courts can delay indefinitely, all dependent on if the courts want to, THEN, it can be delayed indefinitely, all dependent on if the courts want to. Honestly, there's not much of a difference- it all depends on the courts. All Nichols is doing is taking their ability to silence us in one fell swoop, with a grand overarching legal strategy to frustrate us, and make them fight us in a less organized way, which makes it look a lot worse. Think about it: if Nichols had been decided along with Peruta, and the courts said, "NO CARRY IS A RIGHT"- How much better off would we be? As is, the ruling is "CONCEALED IS NOT A RIGHT; WHO KNOWS ABOUT OPEN CARRY" If they THEN decide, "WE SAID CONCEALED IS NOT A RIGHT AND WHO KNOWS ABOUT OPEN CARRY, BUT NOW THAT WE'RE ASKED- NO CARRY IS THE RIGHT" It looks much, much worse. No benefit.
__________________
|
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
|
#10
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
The court supposedly has "rules" about the dates by which various paperwork must be filed, but they can apparently violate the enforcement of those deadline rules whenever they wish, and they seemingly always do so for the anti-rights side and against the rights side...
From Mr. Nichols' website this afternoon: January 18, 2017 – The 9th circuit court of appeals Appellate Commissioner granted the state’s time-barred motion for a sixty day extension of time to file its Answering Brief (now due February 17th) and denied my request for sanctions. And so the 9th circuit court of appeals is going to let the state’s attorney violate the rules of the court of appeals just as the district court judge allowed the state’s attorney to violate the Federal district court rules. 34 – Nichols v. Brown – ORDER [http://blog.californiarighttocarry.o...own-ORDER.pdf] Notice of Docket Activity The following transaction was entered on 01/18/2017 at 10: 57: 27 AM PST and filed on 01/18/2017 Case Name: Charles Nichols v. Edmund Brown, Jr., et al Case Number: 14-55873 Document(s): Document(s) Docket Text: Filed order (Appellate Commissioner): Before: Peter L. Shaw, Appellate Commissioner Appellees’ opposed late motion (Docket Entry No. [32]) for an extension of time to file the answering brief is granted. The answering brief is due February 17, 2017. The optional reply brief is due within 14 days after service of the answering brief. Appellant’s request (Docket Entry No. [33]) for sanctions is denied. Appellant’s petition for rehearing en banc (Docket Entry No. [31]) will be addressed in a separate order. (Pro Mo) [10269637] (LL) Last edited by surfgeorge; 01-18-2017 at 4:42 PM.. |
#12
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
__________________
If you find yourself in a fair fight, you're doing it all wrong. |
#13
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Could you explain this for me, please? History is history is history. And the history of "and bear," especially the legal history, is actually pretty clear. Mr Nichols didn't tell them anything that they didn't already know. In my humble opinion, Nichols made a VERY good decision to wait until Peruta was over. The 9th Circus Ruled that CCW is NOT the Protected Right. Which anyone who has read Nunn and Heller could have predicted (and which, BTW, I did predict). But they went full-bore on saying that. Much further than was necessary to kick our asses. But not far enough to have the actual words of Nunn and Heller register on the lawyers representing Mr Peruta. By making CCW Munchkinland dead, the 9th has actually eased the burden Mr Nichols bears (basically, what dekul34 said). The 2nd does say "Keep AND Bear arms." And there really are only two ways to go when it comes to "and bear." Now that CCW is so thoroughly dead in the 9th., the only remaining, logical option is LOC. Which is nice because that's just what Nunn and Heller state is the Protected Right anyway. Now, could the 9th find a way to Rule that LOC isn't the Right either? I suppose. I tried sticking my head up my own *** (to replicate the thinking position that most of the "judges" in the 9th MUST use on the job), but even that didn't allow me to see how they could do so. Still, evil, dishonest, agenda-driven people can find a way to all sorts of things. So, I can't rule it out. The other thing to keep in mind is that Nichols v Brown isn't the only LOC case in the country. There is still Norman v State (AKA Norman v Florida). The lawyers representing Mr Norma have been bright enough to stick to the actual words of Nunn and Heller. They are helped a lot by the Fla Constitution. In addition, the NRA (to my AMAZEMENT) filed an amici Brief that was actually helpful. The timeline is maybe shorter than Nichols v Brown as well. True, it's not in the Federal courts yet, but it's possible that it could go from the Fla Supremes (a court that doesn't take forever to Rule) straight to SCOTUS. The Raisuli
__________________
"Ignorance is a steep hill with perilous rocks at the bottom" WTB: 9mm cylinder for Taurus Mod. 85 |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
|
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
CA9 (assuming a bad panel, which is likely) will have to somehow prove that a law which only allows carry if the person is in imminent danger is somehow a world apart from the IL law struck down in Moore. The easiest route is CA9 laying out a blueprint of may issue for OC permits statewide, a wink to the state that they can continue to smother public carry. The dissent in Moore did the same thing, basically laying out that forests and other clearly non-sensitive places could be made off limits. |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Quote:
UOC got banned, by name, because the APPEARANCE of a gun is what terrifies people. There IS no way to know without visual inspection whether a gun is loaded or unloaded, so functionally, for the sheeple, it's the same as LOC- people carrying guns on their hips like the wild west! No, you think too small. They'll say that UOC is banned because of compelling state interest in keeping people safe from terror, making cops jobs easier in mass shootings by having no one else be legally armed, and keeping guns from being stolen (citing examples of LOC having guns taken from them). They'll ignore the "bear", or worse, define "bear" as only involving the militia, which is satisfied by the California Guard or National guard, and transport laws, as well as exercising out and about in the wilderness. Perhaps throw in lines about mustering soldiers far from cities and bans on weapons in cities to demonstrate that bear does not mean carrying arms in cities.
__________________
|
#17
|
||||
|
||||
There is no way to read the en banc peruta ruling and have any expectation that an honest ruling will happen here.
They will say "CC is available" you lose. History, constitution, BOR all have nothing to do with it. |
#18
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Quote:
It's a sad state of affairs. (IVC, I presume you mean shall issue CCW)
__________________
|
#19
|
|||
|
|||
You're right. Justice has nothing to do with justice. It has everything to do with political.
|
#20
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Even if full court en banc is denied and cert is denied, we're talking ~1 more year until anything moves in Nichols. IOW, Nichols is on the "sandwich and nap" track.
__________________
240+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives. Last edited by Paladin; 07-21-2016 at 4:37 PM.. |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
If you're going to continue to post "sandwich and a nap", you need to post Sandwich and a Nap
__________________
|
#23
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
So, if Peruta is finalized (as a loss) in 3 years, we may have another 5.5 - 7.5 years until we win Nichols... We're talking about between New Years Days 2025 and 2027 before we win ANY kind of carry (assuming we'd even win Nichols)! That calls for a Rip van Winkel-type of a nap. (Wake up looking like: ) Hopefully, the OP now understands why we're not all excited about Nichols. Best to move to a CA county that readily issues CCWs now, rather than wait (unarmed) years for Peruta or Nichols (which we're not guaranteed to win).
__________________
240+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives. Last edited by Paladin; 08-15-2016 at 10:11 PM.. |
#24
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
__________________
"Let me guess... This isn't about the alcohol or tobacco?" |
#25
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
I wasn't predicting that, but just providing a reality check. Actually, things could end up much worse. Remember Nordyke??? Well, let Nichols go up to, say, full court en banc, and for some reason they say "Retrial! Start over again." Then the whole process starts over again back at square one. Assume 2 years for each step and that adds ANOTHER DECADE to our being legally disarmed in public! Want it even worse? Nichols is a middle aged overweight (obese?) male with an obvious attitude problem (stress -> high blood pressure?). He's representing himself and if he ever gets to SCOTUS he'll probably REFUSE any help from anyone. Imagine he's granted cert., but keels over before orals and before even submitting briefs. What then? There's no longer an aggrieved party seeking judicial relief (or their legal representative). Hopefully, if Trump wins and the GOP hold the House & Senate (filibuster proof majority), and they pass National Reciprocity, and then The Donald packs the fed cts with good justices, things will go well and we may win SD = GC in a few years. But why count on the fed courts? Why "put all our (Carry) eggs" in the federal courts basket? We need more CGNers to do what folks in LA, SD and CoCoCo are: organizing (on FB) to make their individual city PD's CoPs issue CCWs and accept SD = GC. ETA: I think part of the reason we're so disappointed in why Peruta and "carry" is taking so long is because we've focused on how McDonald went from filing in district court to winning in SCOTUS in 2 years. We've forgotten that Heller took 5 1/2 years to win.
__________________
240+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives. Last edited by Paladin; 08-15-2016 at 10:08 PM.. |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
Im sorry, but I do not see the difference in those two outcomes.
Your theory does not make sense to me. The goal is to get the 9th or any court to agree that carrying a loaded gun in some manner is a constitutional right. If they are going to deny us the "bear arms" then I say make them do so now. I dont think they have the guts, so call the bluff and force them to take a position. |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
They totally do. If the actions of courts seem to still be motivated by good faith in laws, and not a jihad against guns, then I don't know what to tell you, except I'm going to tell "told you so" when I'm proven right. If you really think they'll give us bear in any useful, liberated form, then congrats on the Alaskan thunderfu(k, or similar strain you must be smoking. This makes them work harder, and at least gives Nichols some control of the situation, as opposed to everything being the court's timeline and sweeping decision. Think of it this way. Either you think Nichols is crazy/bad case, which means there's no need to rush a crazy before the courts to get unforced errors and make us lose. If he's crazy, then Peruta/Richards/baker/young is our best hope; and having Nichols stay out is the best possible outcome, so he doesn't screw up the competent lawyers who have much more experience. If you think that Nichols is right when everyone else is wrong, and his pro-se case is way stronger and the ACTUAL right, then the fact that Nichols is right when literally everyone else is WRONG means that he should be granted deference on this matter because he has been consistently right in everything else despite all odds. So... If he's an idiot, it's good he's asking his case to be held. If he's a genius, he should be given the benefit of the doubt. I only understand you thinking he shouldn't stay his case for two reasons: 1. Nichols is a genius who's been right every step of the way despite all odds, but NOW he's broken his track record and is completely wrong Or 2. You're impatient.
__________________
|
#28
|
|||
|
|||
I understand your views, but there are additional possibilities beyond what you offered. Patience is not always a virtue, and too mich patience becomes apathy.
The prime evidence the 9th Circuit court doesnt have the guts to explicitly erase "bear arms" from the Constitution is that the Peruta en banc panel went way, way, way out their way to avoid even addressing the issue, and instead just said "concealed carry not a right." If the court was as set on erasing the right to bear arms as you contend, then a) it makes no difference who brings these cases and no difference when they are brought, and b) they would already have said so in Peruta en banc decision. Since we have no ability to carry arms in California, we have nothing to lose by forcing the issue and making the Court take an extreme position, and this has best chance of Scotus review. |
#29
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Quote:
If Nichols hadn't asked his case to be held, they could easily resolve Peruta/Richards/Baker/Young/Nichols in one fell swoop on THEIR timeline; e.g. right after Hillary is elected, so we're completely screwed. Nichols holding his case means that likely, the final result will be 4 YEARS from now- meaning possibly ANOTHER president. That introduces uncertainty and makes THEM worry about the final resolution- as it's no longer on THEIR preferred timeline. Quote:
If THEY are bent on erasing the right- not just ruling a certain way, but ERASING it- then unless they're the court of last resort (they're not), they HAVE to worry about the upstream effects. If they SAID so in Peruta, then Nichols', or Beck's cases, WOULD become NATIONAL vehicles that the NRA AND Trump would make an ELECTION issue saying California has WIPED OUT the right to carry COMPLETELY. This would have unknown effects, and that's undesirable- especially because there'd be a QUICK avenue for redress. People are impatient. Telling them, "Trump will elect SCOTUS and it will have an impact in 4 years"- they're done listening to you. 4 years is too long. If you tell them "Trump will elect SCOTUS and Courts and have an impact on the 2nd Amendment in his first year in office"- well, you've just got yourself an issue LARGE amounts of people will vote on. Quote:
We ALSO have things to lose NATIONALLY, by serving a case of an anti-SCOTUS to gut Heller. That's EXACTLY what Ginsburg said she plans to do. Just because California is screwed doesn't mean we should selfishly take a large gamble that can screw the rest of the country. That's the exact mindset that makes Californians reviled across the country. Further, that's the impatient mindset that gave us Heller- which beforehand, there was ambiguity thus uncertainty, which gave our opponents pause and wasn't enforceable. Peruta could define carry rights as so limited that we lose our sunshine laws, and even in rural counties, it becomes a donation tool like in the rest of corrupt California. Peruta being decided against us at SCOTUS can DESTROY the right, as opposed to making it unknown. These are very important distinctions.
__________________
|
#31
|
||||
|
||||
For those who asked for clarification, I believe Nichols should have given the 9th the ultimatum in his brief. CC is not protected, but Heller (recent history) affirmed that some form of carry must be allowed.
It would have virtually forced them one way or the other. Right now they are still sitting trying to keep both forms restricted. As mrrabbit pointed out, now they can take their time and drag their feet through the mud, giving us UOC years from now. Instead, the brief and decision read like a history book focused on 17th century laws instead of recent history. Others may disagree, but just my .02. If he can get LOC back cleanly and timely, I will eat my words.
__________________
God may have made men, but Samuel Colt made them equal. Send me pics of your: Colt Detective Special, AMT Hardballer, pre-64 Winchester Model 70. I'm looking for them. |
#32
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
1st, CA9 will rule that OC specifically isn't a protected Right - No SCOTUS ruling said that it is. They didn't specify OC or CC. This should lead to SCOTUS saying to let the States decide which, or both. Then, push comes to shove in CA, and they'll acknowledge that carrying is a Right subject to 'reasonable' regulation; just like all rights are. Then the CA Legs will have to decide which one or both. Then it will be carrying with a 'Shall Issue' permit that still includes a good cause requirement or some other subjective criteria. And then that battle starts all over again. |
#33
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
|
#34
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
IOW, no change; only status quo. Last edited by danez71; 08-13-2016 at 1:33 PM.. |
#35
|
|||
|
|||
I guess I got confused because you referenced a SCOTUS case, which at this point is so iffy in terms of what they'd decide I disregarded it because that's so uncertain either good OR bad I find speculation that embraces it to be not very useful. SCOTUS or not, we're not going to be given anything willingly by the legislature. Period. Not one more inch, as we say.
__________________
|
#36
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
The problem here is in bold. While it's technically true that Heller didn't Rule that one way or the other of "and bear" is the Protected Right, that's only because "and bear" wasn't at issue. They DID specify which is the Protected Right though: LOC. And every Circuit to Rule on the issue has correctly quoted Heller when they shot us down. That doesn't mean the Grabberz won't do all that they can to prevent any manner of "and bear." But, as I pointed out above, I just don't see how. The Raisuli
__________________
"Ignorance is a steep hill with perilous rocks at the bottom" WTB: 9mm cylinder for Taurus Mod. 85 |
#37
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
I'm drawing a blank on when/where/what case. ETA: Are you referring to Heller? If you are, I don't think Heller said OC is protected. Paraphrasing, IMO, SCOTUS said they weren't advocating or undermining Conceal Carry. SCOTUS said requiring the gun be inoperable "would fail constitutional muster". SCOTUS said that a license/permit is OK as long as its "not enforced arbitrarily and capriciously". SCOTUS noted Ginsburg comments in Muscellero of carrying/bearing' in reference to the 2A as being relevant to the Heller decision. Logic would say that California residents should be able to get some type of loaded firearm carrying, with a permit that isn't arbitrarily granted, and with the choice of being OC or CC (or both) being the States decision. Last edited by danez71; 08-16-2016 at 9:58 AM.. |
#38
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Heller was actually pretty clear on the subject. Where? When they quoted Nunn v State (AKA, Nunn v Georgia). In the 1840s, Georgia outlawed BOTH methods of "and bear." Mr Nunn was convicted and appealed, eventually reaching the GA Supreme Court. That Court Ruled, that far from what you see from lawyers on our side (who should know better), that it was NOT a matter of 'some form of carry must be allowed' that guided their Ruling. The GA Supremes stated quite clearly that ONLY LOC is the Protected Right. From Heller: Quote:
Quote:
Reading Nunn in its entirety is highly recommended. There you will see how the GA Supremes reached their Ruling. And enable you to see that our strategy of trying to make CCW the Protected Right was doomed from the start. And that maintaining that strategy after we were shot down the first time we tried it was foolish. Staying with that strategy now, when we've been shot down is inane. Mr Nichols is an egomaniac. He has 'perfected' hubris to a degree not often seen. Which ain't a good thing in a litigator. But he has the basic facts of the matter right. Which is more than can be said for Mr Gura and all the other "right people." Fortunately, We The People aren't dependent upon the ability of Mr Nichols to have the Right restored. Quote:
So, THE case to watch is covered elsewhere in this forum: Norman v State (AKA Norman v Florida). Here, the attorneys are VERY good at what they do. In that they have correctly read Heller and it's citation of Nunn. Which means that are using the Rulings from Circuits 2/3/4 and ESPECIALLY 10 (and now, Peruta) in support of their efforts. And, in a move that utterly astonished me, the NRA filed an amicus Brief that was entirely supportive. True, it's still at the state level, while Mr Nichols is about to go in front of the 9th Circuit. But state Supreme Court rulings are frequently appealed directly to SCOTUS, which would put Norman ahead in the race to SCOTUS. With a little luck, the Fla Supremes will do what their job and their oaths require, and we'll have a Ruling that restores "and bear" to its rightful place in Constitutional law. The Raisuli
__________________
"Ignorance is a steep hill with perilous rocks at the bottom" WTB: 9mm cylinder for Taurus Mod. 85 |
#39
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
|
#40
|
||||
|
||||
"This case is stayed until November 17, 2016."
Whatever the merits of this case or the strategy being used to pursue it, I agree with those who say it is irrelevant. We put much faith in the Federal Courts, a faith that seemed rewarded after the 2008 and 2010 decisions in the DC v Heller and McDonald v Chicago cases. But almost everything we have seen since 2010, with some narrow exceptions mostly regarding Illinois, shows our faith is misplaced. There is no hope for relief via the Federal Courts. If you live in the heart of Mordor, in a state like California or New York, your only hope is to get out. Flee to a Free State, escape to Free America while you still can.
__________________
Guns don't kill people, Democrats kill people |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|