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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel. |
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Why NRA failed with national address, per Alan Gura
Alan really breaks it down. They blew their chance to make gun rights a civil rights issue after listening to Alan in this video.
Which makes me wonder, why can't the NRA figure this **** out. http://youtu.be/P9rsVL-M5Jw (adding, I'm still a member and still urge people to be members) BUT WHAT THE HECK NRA, New messenger and knowledge of how pop culture reacts to scary things is needed.
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just happy to be here. I like talking about better ways to protect ourselves. Shop at AMAZON to help Calguns Foundation CRPA Life Member. Click here to Join. NRA Member JOIN HERE/ |
#2
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Dude the NRA has just begun the fight, they have been fighting for gun rights for 100 years I am sure they know what they are doing
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If you Are not behind us, then take your place in front of us" Devil Doc, Corpsman Up! Love My country and My fellow Vets R.I.P my brothers HM3 John D. House, HN Aaron A. Kent, HM2 Cesar O. Baez, HM3 Travis Youngblood, HM3 Christopher W. Thompson, HM2 Allan M. Cundanga Espiritu (True Heros) |
#3
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Why doesn't the NRA HIRE Mr. Gura?
Love the ending. God bless Mr. Gura.
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NO ISSUE / MAY ISSUE / SHALL ISSUE - LTC progress over time since 1986 |
#4
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I am an NRA member since 1976, a contributor and support them whole heatedly but let's not engage in any historical revisionism.
The NRA has been fighting for gun rights for around 35 years if I counted correctly. The NRA helped write the National Firearms Act of 1934 (and to give them credit they kept handguns from becoming NFA weapons as was originally envisioned). The NRA also helped write the Gun Control Act of 1968. There was always a part of the NRA that is kind of like the elite RINO's of the Republican Party. The "I'm a gunowner because I own a shotgun and I support gun control" pap that we hear today from the likes of Andrew Cuomo and that contemptible Mike Thompson. It makes me want to support a ban on shotguns and/or duck hunting just to shut them up. Anyway, I digress. In the mid-70's there were discussions at the highest levels of the NRA about moving out of DC (to CO as I recall) and becoming primarily a promoter of gun safety and an organizer of marksmanship competitions. "Saturday Night Specials" were the equivalent of "assault rifles" today and the "Old Guard" elites tried to get the NRA to support the ban on them proposed by Birch Bayh (D - Indiana). The NRA as we know it today was pretty much created by Harlan Carter who was disgusted by the appeasers who ran the NRA at the time and helped instigate what came to be known as the Cincinnati Revolt that saved the NRA from being run by duck hunters and target shooters and helped it become the Second Amendment defender it is today. In fact, pick up an pre-1977 copy of the NRA Fact Book on Firearms Control and see what they thought of the Second Amendment at the time; it wasn't good. The proof is left as an exercise for the reader.
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#5
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After the shenanigans the NRA pulled to be involved with Heller and almost managed to screw up Heller, I don't share your confidence. For a large fraction of its history, the NRA has represented the interests of elmer fud hunters and almost nobody else. The NRA tries to be on the forefront of gun rights defense, but I'll put my money with Gura and SAF on actually getting RKBA stuff done every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
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"Ecuador offers the United States $23 million a year in economic aid, an amount similar to what we were receiving under the tariff benefits, with the purpose of providing human rights training that will contribute to avoid violations of people's privacy, that degrade humanity," --Fernando Alvarado |
#6
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NRA member Gun Facts PDF | Gun Safety Laws "You can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." -Robert Heinlein "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but through me." - Jesus in John 14:6 |
#7
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Oh please ...
As the often restated statement goes, "hindsight is 20/20". That's all Alan Gura is doing, giving hindsight. The truth is, and we all know this, the NRA is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. You can't have expected the NRA to come out and say anything that the anti's are going to accept during the emotional time after the CT shooting. |
#8
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Without the NRA we would probably be all shooting singleshots or worse yet, slingshots. So many Calgunners are such whiners and forget what was done for them 5 mins ago...depressing on here sometimes...i want to believe, but ugh.... Ok, whining can proceed now.... |
#9
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just happy to be here. I like talking about better ways to protect ourselves. Shop at AMAZON to help Calguns Foundation CRPA Life Member. Click here to Join. NRA Member JOIN HERE/ |
#10
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Oh God,
Its the Conservatives vs Libertarians - again.
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"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez |
#11
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WHAT? It's 2016 already? Elections? We lost again because we keep dividing the vote?
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NO ISSUE / MAY ISSUE / SHALL ISSUE - LTC progress over time since 1986 |
#12
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Whether or not they did a poor job defending the 2A, the fact is, they did something. Do you think the press even listened or cared to listen to what the NRA had to say, let alone the fact that they already said they would not be entertaining questions? Last edited by NytWolf; 01-11-2013 at 2:39 PM.. |
#13
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Obama's task force led by Biden is an even bigger joke. After 100's of years considering and implementing regulations aiming at reducing violence, suddenly a task force meets for a week or two, takes a couple of days of testimony and ouila! suddenly the solution is discovered and ready for implementation (starting next Tuesday). And I agree with Kes above. People don't think all of this carnage up on their own, the more examples one sees in the external world the more likely that scenario will pop into your mind. Look at Holmes "I am the Joker" and it is clear he intended to emulate the character and took actions that the character is portrayed as taking. |
#14
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It's a mixed bag.
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Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. Last edited by bwiese; 01-11-2013 at 2:43 PM.. |
#15
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The other thing that's changed is that we emptied the contents of hundreds of insane asylums on to the streets and I'm not sure what we can do about that without opening a new civil rights can of worms. Quote:
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"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." --FREDERIC BASTIAT-- Proud Life Member: National Rifle Association, the Second Amendment Foundation, and the California Rifle & Pistol Association |
#16
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There are at least 40 million gun owning households in the US. NRA membership stands at a little over 4 million. Those two numbers are an indicator that what we have been doing is not working. If we can't pick up the active support of people who should be a slam dunk, we need to re-examine our strategy. I know a fair number gun owners who are not members of the NRA. The overwhelming feedback I get is that the NRA is not an organization for people like them. The perception is that the NRA is only for old white Republican men. This simple fact hurts us a lot. The myopic world view and siloed thinking of the NRA leadership was evident in La Pierre's speech. The out of date cultural references were painful and painted an image of an out of touch, irrelevant organization. Instead of structuring a response that allowed future flexibility and appeared well reasoned, the NRA lashed itself to the school shield program, which anyone with a brain should have known was a non-starter. In talking to non-gun friends and many gun owning friends, I believe the NRA's response may well have done more damage to our cause than Sandyhook itself. I had let my NRA membership lapse for several years. Like many gun owners I know, I concluded the NRA didn't want and was actively hostile to people like me. I realize now, that was a mistake. My response should have been to get more involved and advocate for change. |
#17
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#18
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-Gene
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Gene Hoffman Chairman, California Gun Rights Foundation DONATE NOW to support the rights of California gun owners. Follow @cgfgunrights on Twitter. Opinions posted in this account are my own and not the approved position of any organization. I read PMs. But, if you need a response, include an email address or email me directly! "The problem with being a gun rights supporter is that the left hates guns and the right hates rights." -Anon
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#19
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"...That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government..." - Thomas Jefferson "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people." - John Adams "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." - Alexis de Tocqueville Proud Contributing Member: |
#20
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Go Alan.
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"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez |
#21
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[CENTER]CALIFORNIA: Love it, leave it /CENTER] The right to keep and bear arms comes not from the generosity of the state but from the hand of God.
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#22
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#23
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I would, however, like to see the SAF and NRA both sharing Mr. Gura's abilities. He does seem to be a generational talent.
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"What is a moderate interpretation of the text? Halfway between what it really means and what you'd like it to mean?" -Antonin Scalia, Supreme Court Justice "Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety. I like my guns like the left likes their voters-"undocumented". |
#24
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The NRA leadership has done well for a very long time, and has been very effective since the Cincinnati revolt. I am not convinced that their leadership is prepared to operate effectively in a post Heller world.
This does not mean that we should abandon the NRA, but rather we should change the leadership to reflect today's challenges and opportunities. Regards, SwissFluCase
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"We don't discuss the governor's arsenal in detail" - Brown spokeswoman Elizabeth Ashford |
#25
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Gura is absolutely right that the attack on video games and movies was stupid and little more than an "old guy" response. He's also right that the better approach would have been a rousing flag waving a civil rights and personal freedom speech. Where I partly disagree with Gura is that we need to empower teachers by allowing them to carry a concealed weapon.
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"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." --FREDERIC BASTIAT-- Proud Life Member: National Rifle Association, the Second Amendment Foundation, and the California Rifle & Pistol Association |
#26
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That means accepting certain risks—risks that can be partially mitigated by a functional civil right to bear arms.
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Matthew D. Van Norman Dancing Giant Sales | Licensed Firearms Dealer | Rainier, WA |
#27
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We need a big ****ing tent. |
#28
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Gura is absolutely correct in that trying to attack violent video games is seen by the anti gun crowd as "look, over there, someone else doing bad things".
Alan didnt give in at all and say "we need to ban assault weapons and magazines". You can have a firm position, and not give one inch without acting like Wayne did. It's almost as if the media knew wayne would do that, so they gave him this HUGE stage (EVERY single network I switched to that morning had his address) to let him come off like a loon on.
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just happy to be here. I like talking about better ways to protect ourselves. Shop at AMAZON to help Calguns Foundation CRPA Life Member. Click here to Join. NRA Member JOIN HERE/ |
#29
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Bull-Puckey!
I've played video games for a few decades now and I'll tell you for a FACT as each new generation of game comes out they are more violent, more graphic, the game play rewards more and more amoral actions and the people who say it has no influence are full of crap up to their brown eyes. The industry responds to what the market wants and as kids grow up 'stabbing the hooker to death so I don't have to pay her', and getting bonus points for it, they start looking for something 'edgier' because stabbing the hooker is just the norm. The original Texas Chainsaw Massacre was the most shocking, grotesque and graphically violent movie in history at the time of it's release. Now with all the slasher/torture/mutilation flicks kids are seeing Texas Chainsaw Massacre can be shown on public TV uncut! How much do Super Bowl commercials cost? Do you really think that people will pay tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars for 15-30 seconds of air time if it didn't affect and influence people? How many of the lying hypocrites telling us that their movies, TV shows or songs don't affect anyone have gone on to tell us as they win some award how proud they are that their art and talent has influenced so many people? The NRA didn't 'fail' and Wayne LaPierre didn't misspeak, he told the truth and even gun owners have hobby horses they are willing to blind themselves over.
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NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA Life Member / SAF Life Member Calguns.net an incorported entity - President. The Calguns Shooting Sports Assoc. - Vice President. The California Rifle & Pistol Assoc. - Director. DONATE TO NRA-ILA, CGSSA, AND CRPAF NOW! Opinions posted in this account are my own and unless specifically stated as such are not the approved position of Calguns.net, CGSSA or CRPA. |
#30
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To my knowledge, there has yet to be a study that's cited any real kind of correlation between violent games or movies and more aggressive behavior in people. It hasn't been my personal experience, either. As a slightly off topic aside, "Killing a hooker so you don't have to pay her AND YOU GET BONUS POINTS" demonstrates a pretty clear disconnect in understanding from how modern games even work compared to older ones. |
#31
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"So, the brutal, merciless, savage mass murderer of first-graders in Connecticut was another in a long line of avid video game players who turned their sick fantasy into our tragic reality. Surprised? I train military and law enforcement nation-wide, on the road almost 300 days a year for 15 years. I was an Army Ranger and a West Point Psych Professor. An author of many very successful books on this subject. This is the perspective that I come from... Bottom line: From a military and law enforcement perspective, violent video games are "murder simulators" that train kids to kill. They act just like police and military simulators, providing conditioned responses, killing skills, and desensitization, except they are inflicted on children without the discipline of military and police training. Research on the background of our juvenile mass murderers show they have one thing in common: they ALL dropped out of life and filled their lives with nothing but violent movies and violent video games. The sickest video games and the sickest movies are very very sick indeed. And the sick sick kids who immerse themselves in this "entertainment" are very sick indeed. Jonesboro in the middle school, Columbine in the high school, Virginia Tech in the college, and now this generation gives us Sandy Hook as adults… The Sandy Hook massacre has been building for years. And there is much, much worse yet to come. (They are NOT "shootings" they are massacres ... five died in the "Boston Massacre" which touched off the American Revolution … six murdered in the "St. Valentines Day Massacre" … many times more were murdered in Sandy Hook and we hide the reality from ourselves by calling it a "shooting" … "shooting" is what happens on the range … a "shooter" is the guy who got lucky during deer season! These are brutal mass murderers, committing savage massacres unlike anything seen in human history.) This has all been building up for years. Consider the stats on officers murdered in the line of duty in the US: '08: 42 '09: 48 '10: 56 '11: 72 Anyone see a pattern here? Medical technology is holding DOWN the murder rate. The number of murdered cops should be going down every year. These are criminals who practiced killing cops since they were six years old, every day of their lives, playing Grand Theft Auto, and now they are primed to kill cops as adults. If we intentionally tried to raise a generation cocked and primed to kill, we could not have done a better job. The answer? Parents MUST enforce the rating system. They MUST understand the danger. To do that, they must be informed by our media! And the schools must begin to educate their kids! Go to www.TakeTheChallengeNow.net to learn about a school TV-turnoff curriculum pioneered by Stanford Med School and demonstrated to cut school violence and bullying in half! An "M" (mature, 17 and above ONLY) rated game is the same as an "X" rated movie! The people who manufacture the game say so. Their own industry says so! A "T" (teen) rating means no child under 13 should play the game. Period. It is a very tragic, horrendous situation when adults let their children immerse themselves in M rated games! Just like, sex, gambling, porn, alcohol, tobacco, drugs, guns, and automobiles: these are all things that adults must not give to kids! Not all of the kids who play these sick games will become killers, but they will all be desensitized to human death and suffering, intentionally and realistically inflicted by themselves, for their own entertainment… If YOUR child is one who commits a brutal crime, and YOU let them play these sick games, then the blood is on your hands too… (And YOU may well be the first one to die, as with this most recent incident.) This is NOT business as usual in America. Never lose your sense of outrage that every kid in America has to do lock-down drills, practicing "hunkering down and hiding" for when kids come to kill them. Never lose your sense of outrage that all of our cops practice going in our schools and shooting our kids with "active shooter response plans." These things are necessary, they work, they deter violent acts and they can save lives and hold down the body count when it does happen, but they are not normal. This is NOT just another day in America. This is NOT "business as usual" in America… Something is very, very wrong. And it is a world-wide phenomenon! Germany has had two mass murders in their high schools with body counts that beat Columbine. England had a massacre in the kindergarden class in Dunblain Scotland, tragically forecasting Sandy Hook. Canada had the Taber, Alberta school massacre. Finland has had three school massacres. In Norway the killer got on an island and killed all their kids. In China killers are going in the classrooms with knives and gutting and hacking the kids. In Belgium a sicko got in the day care center and hacked 12 babies in the cribs, dressed as the Joker form the Batman movie. (All those European gun laws made THEM real safe, eh?) And we though it wouldn't happen here!? And you think it's over now? The worst is yet to come. We will reap what we sow for a generation to come…. Until we stop teaching our kids to kill."
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#32
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I strongly suspect they wouldn't help Lt Col Grossman's argument.
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#33
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Anyone who calls a video game a "murder simulator" has no more credibility than someone who calls an AR owner a "baby killer".
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#34
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^ There's a list of a number of scholarly research articles. |
#35
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I'm guessing you are referencing GTA with the hooker comment, that game is rated "M" and children shouldn't be playing it anyway. It's up to their parents to ensure that they don't.
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Last edited by mosinnagantm9130; 01-11-2013 at 3:22 PM.. |
#36
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Until you have solid evidence supporting your case, assigning blame to anything with the intent of restricting liberty is an inherently anti-liberty approach. Why do you think we're now having to fight for our most fundamental right? Look in the mirror. It's because there are millions of people out there who are taking the very same approach to guns that you are, here, with respect to video games. You of all people should understand the value and, yes, the risks, of the liberty of free speech. You can't pick and choose which rights you support and which ones you don't. They're a package deal, for if you can manage to take away the rights of someone else, they can turn around and take yours away as well, which is exactly what is being attempted at this very moment. Liberty itself is a package deal as well. Either take it or leave it.
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The Constitution is not "the Supreme Law of the Land, except in the face of contradicting law which has not yet been overturned by the courts". It is THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND, PERIOD. You break your oath to uphold the Constitution if you don't refuse to enforce unadjudicated laws you believe are Unconstitutional. The real world laughs at optimism. And here's why. |
#37
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"What is a moderate interpretation of the text? Halfway between what it really means and what you'd like it to mean?" -Antonin Scalia, Supreme Court Justice "Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety. I like my guns like the left likes their voters-"undocumented". |
#38
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Yeah, the conference was badly handled and exposed the deficiencies of the public face of the NRA.
Having said that, it's more important to be an NRA member now than ever. The stakes couldn't be higher, which is one of the reasons why folks are offering critiques for the NRA. |
#39
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Listen to him very closely.
He is criticizing how out of touch the NRA seems and how archaic they appear to a popular audience. Hindsight 20/20 sure but the NRA gave themselves ample time to have a more thoughtful response like the one Gura gave in this video. We need more polished speakers like Gura to represent us in the public eye. Although I still respect the NRA as leaders in our fight, their leaders seem to present a very polarizing picture at times. Could it have hurt them to have a woman speaking for them if not Gura? It would have softened the picture of the NRA as a bunch of old men fighting from a seemingly out of touch and OLD perspective.
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"When you get the (men) to the range, you just get the men. But when you bring the (women) to the range, you get the (whole family). And that's what's going to save our 2nd Amendment."--Dianna Liedorff "Since self-preservation is the 1st law of nature, we assert the...right to self-defense. The Constitution...clearly affirms the right of every American...to bear arms. And as Americans, we will not give up a single right guaranteed under the Constitution." --Malcolm X |
#40
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Theoretically speaking, if you had replaced Wayne La Pierre's speech with Alan Gura's speech or something that he would have come up with, do you think the gun control agenda people would be swayed? Let's put this into perspective. Just for argument's sakes, let's put the gun control agenda at -10 (minus 10) on a number scale and put the NRA on +10 (plus 10). An equal compromise on both sides would bring the entire gun control argument to a 0 (zero). Now, knowing the pro gun control people is unlikely to budge, so their position stays at -10 (minus 10). Now to the million dollar question. Did La Pierre's speech move the NRA's position to any less than the +10 (plus 10) that they started? If Alan Gura had spoke in place of La Pierre, do you think the NRA's position would move to any less than +10 (plus 10)? |
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