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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #41  
Old 08-17-2009, 1:16 PM
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Anyone else bothered that he mounted his EOTech to the handguard? I figured mounting in that way would not be as secure as mounting it directly to the upper receiver. If the handguard rotates or shifts, there could be some error between point-of-aim and point-of-impact.


I have tremendous admiration for anyone who is more offended by poor design and possible decreased effectiveness than by any of the social ramifications of OCing an EBR at a political function.

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  #42  
Old 08-17-2009, 1:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Maestro Pistolero View Post
I love that an African American is demonstrating his 2A rights at an Obama rally. I got goose bumps.
And interesting to note that the article posted in this thread made no mention of that. You can bet if the guy was white....they woulda mentioned it for sure!
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  #43  
Old 08-17-2009, 1:30 PM
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People have to make up their own minds about what is appropriate behaviour.

This guy obviously thought is was appropriate.

I support his right to choose.
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  #44  
Old 08-17-2009, 1:39 PM
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I haven't seen the CNN footage; I've just seen that one screenshot, and the comment that "he seems to be a health care supporter". That was enough to get me thinking a little bit. What follows is half-formed thought at best; I'm presenting it in hope of stimulating some interesting and creative conversation and debate.

Ok, whenever the topic of open carry comes up here on CGN, there's a high chance that the famous picture of Black Panthers carrying guns will be posted as a reminder that open carry can be, and certainly has been in the past, detrimental to our cause. I think that's quite true, and something to be particularly aware of in places like California. I do agree with the recommendation from Those Guys that we hold off on UOC here for a while for strategic purposes, with the end goal of maximizing the chance of having some viable statewide carry option in California as soon as possible.

Now, that being said, I also recognize that a guy carrying a rifle isn't nearly as fudge-making a situation in other states. I haven't lived outside of California enough to have a good feel for what that's like. Still, I understand the concern (that I share) that seeing stuff like this on national news may trigger undesired effects.

It occurred to me, though, that something significant has changed since that famous picture of the Black Panthers was taken. As I understand it, that event frightened lawmakers not because of men carrying guns, but because they were black men carrying guns. However, the civil rights movement has changed our society a lot since then. While we have not eliminated the scourge of racism (and we may never succeed in doing so), things have still changed dramatically. I'd say that in many ways, the pendulum has overshot the center, and we're now in a society where it's distinctively unpopular in many circles to be a straight white male. As an example, I'll present Sotomayor's comment regarding her rich experience as a latina compared to the experiences of white males; while I consider that comment to be disgustingly racist, I can't help but recognize the undercurrent that it represents.

With that in mind, is there any way that we could put a positive spin on non-white-males openly, safely and peacefully carrying firearms while supporting popular causes and vocally thinking of the children? It seems that much of the anti-gun sentiment is fueled (often deliberately) by fears of crazy rednecks, ganbangers, etc. Many of us here see somebody openly carrying, whether to make a statement or to protect themselves within the limited boundaries that are available to them, and then we naturally anticipate the public outcry against crazy people carrying guns in public. But what if the carriers are sympathetic to their audience? What if they are anything but straight white males supporting conservative agendas, but instead are minorities supporting liberal agendas? Might the message be perceived differently in that case?

I'm certainly no fan of the socialist agenda put forth by the left wing here, but then I'm no fan of the conservative agenda, either. I consider myself to be a little-L libertarian, and I don't think that either major party here has a platform which supports the U.S. ideal of ordered liberty. Still, I can't help but wonder whether we might actually be able to take a page from our opponent's playbook in order to sway public sentiment in a way which furthers our cause, and helps unwind the decades of vilification that second amendment supporters have endured.

Might there be an upside to seeing a black guy peacefully and safely carrying a gun over on the "pro" side at an Obama rally in 2009?

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  #45  
Old 08-17-2009, 1:40 PM
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What I think is interesting is that it was at a VFW convention. Not saying the man with the rifle is a Vet.....but think about that for a moment.

You have a convention of people who are war veterans, people who carried those same rifles in the service of their country. Are some trying to say that they should be trusted to carry those rifles on foreign soil but not their home ground?

Of anyone who has EARNED the right to OC a rifle.....it would be a war veteran.

But....that's just my opinion.

Also.....was this convention held JUST for the purpose of having Obama speak.....or did Obama basically invite himself to a private function to do his sales pitch?
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  #46  
Old 08-17-2009, 1:41 PM
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Here is a report with a long video, and astonishingly the reporters do *not* hyperventilate about it. This is probably honest reporting--they're bewildered at why anyone would want to do it, and that's surely genuine ("I'd never seen one up close before"), but the greatly reduced spin over the guy in New Hampshire is quite startling.

Probably the "Protected Class" effect--they're not allowed to criticize a black man. It just doesn't usually work in our favor. I'd also say the "he's on our side" effect, except the reporters don't seem to know whose side he is on so probably not.

Fans of "rowdy" gun owners note that the man is well-dressed and very calm, with non-threatening body language. He's doing a pretty good job of disrupting the worldview.

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  #47  
Old 08-17-2009, 1:41 PM
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Originally Posted by jdberger View Post
Stupid.

It's normal to OC a pistol. It's abberant to OC a long gun unless it's hunting season.

It's also intentionally threatening.
It's stupid and aberrant to you because you are brainwashed into believing it is. I dare say that to most American's it's completely normal.
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  #48  
Old 08-17-2009, 1:46 PM
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Originally Posted by razorx View Post
The AR he is OC'ng is just a tool/prop for his demonstration. No different than carrying a sign or anything else, so "need" is not applicable in this context.

And I would say that it's a fair bet that the gentleman in question purposely dressed nicely to support the statement he was making.
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  #49  
Old 08-17-2009, 1:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Theseus View Post
It seems he is a health care supporter.

As for being an attention whore, how is that bad thing? AR-15, when carried in the manner it was is a method of speech and protest similar to a sign. Failure to see that is scary.
So this guy was for healthcare reform? Interesting..

I wonder if he was motivated to bring out his guns to a rally cause of the guy who did it at the other rally. What happens if both sides start showing up to these things with rifles? Emotions run pretty high at these things and there could be blood.
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  #50  
Old 08-17-2009, 1:50 PM
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When you use the term aberrant this usually indicates behavior that is wrong. The first definition is the most commonly used, and it says "departing from the right".

While it may indeed be unusual, it is being done to make a particular statement, "This is AMERICA, we have freedoms and we have rights!"

These people were making political statements, not just walking by with ARs over their shoulders. If it were a normal common everyday occurance, who would even notice the underlying political speech?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jdberger View Post
I resent the implication.

It is aberrant to OC a rifle. Not necessarily "threatening", but

What's the point of OCing a rifle?

With a pistol you claim that you always carry one. I did when I lived in AZ (this was pre-ccw). It's pretty difficult to claim that you always tote around a rifle, isn't it?
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aberrant - 10 dictionary results
ab⋅er⋅rant  /əˈbɛrənt, ˈæbər-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [uh-ber-uhnt, ab-er-]

–adjective 1. departing from the right, normal, or usual course.
2. deviating from the ordinary, usual, or normal type; exceptional; abnormal.

–noun 3. an aberrant person, thing, group, etc.

Origin:
1820–30; < L aberrant- (s. of aberrāns, prp. of aberrāre to deviate). See ab-, errant

Related forms:

ab⋅er⋅rance, ab⋅er⋅ran⋅cy, noun
ab⋅er⋅rant⋅ly, adverb

Synonyms:
1. wandering. 2. divergent, unusual.
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  #51  
Old 08-17-2009, 1:51 PM
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Originally Posted by 7x57 View Post
"I'd never seen one up close before"
Could this be an opportunity to reach out to this reporter, and give them an opportunity to learn first-hand that picking up an EBR (at the range, in a comfortable environment, under the tutelage of a calm and well-spoken instructor) will neither cause them to run amok nor soil their trousers? He/she sounds more curious than frightened based on your description.
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  #52  
Old 08-17-2009, 1:52 PM
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Where did you guys see that the guy carrying the AR is pro Obama-care? I haven't been able to find anything that spelled that out specifically.
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  #53  
Old 08-17-2009, 1:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Maestro Pistolero View Post
I love that an African American is demonstrating his 2A rights at an Obama rally. I got goose bumps.
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  #54  
Old 08-17-2009, 1:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Crazed_SS View Post
What happens if both sides start showing up to these things with rifles? Emotions run pretty high at these things and there could be blood.
Right, because everybody knows that allowing civilians to carry guns will result in gunfights over parking spaces.
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Old 08-17-2009, 1:57 PM
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Just watched the video and I saw several people OC'ing. Good for them.
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  #56  
Old 08-17-2009, 1:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Maestro Pistolero View Post
... I got goose bumps.
Same here. What he did made me all gushy inside. I'm glad that he has the right and the ability to exercise those rights. It saddens me that in CA such behavior is called aberrent and his actions would be closely looked at causing shock and dismay.

People have a fundamental right to self defense and to carrying weapons. But when the exercise of rights has to be hidden, it's sad. As the next step is when expression of those rights, be it wearing a cross, carrying a sign, et al. causes negative reactions.
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Old 08-17-2009, 2:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Crazed_SS View Post
So this guy was for healthcare reform? Interesting..

I wonder if he was motivated to bring out his guns to a rally cause of the guy who did it at the other rally. What happens if both sides start showing up to these things with rifles? Emotions run pretty high at these things and there could be blood.
Na, the liberals won't carry guns. That would taint their superiority to gun owners.
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  #58  
Old 08-17-2009, 2:05 PM
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It's stupid and aberrant to you because you are brainwashed into believing it is. I dare say that to most American's it's completely normal.
Really? Please post pictures of yourself carrying out your everyday activities sporting a long gun.

If you do so, I'll happily retract my assertion of "aberrant".
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  #59  
Old 08-17-2009, 2:09 PM
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Hardcore. I think cause he's black he got less ish, and that's great. If he was a white guy they'd say he's a redneck kkk blah blah blah. Well done.
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Old 08-17-2009, 2:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Crazed_SS View Post
What happens if both sides start showing up to these things with rifles?
We have the most calm, sane, polite, and decent discussion yet achieved, because no one will be trying to shout in faces, grab signs, or otherwise physically intimidate the other side as happens otherwise. Aggression suddenly becomes a non-viable tactic.

Plus, we can check out each other's hardware. Who says we can't find common ground?

7x57
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  #61  
Old 08-17-2009, 2:12 PM
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Originally Posted by jdberger View Post
Really? Please post pictures of yourself carrying out your everyday activities sporting a long gun.

If you do so, I'll happily retract my assertion of "aberrant".
I was referring to people not behind the iron curtain. But I do live in rural California, so the next time I go out, I'll take my camera with me just for you.
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Old 08-17-2009, 2:27 PM
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Right, because everybody knows that allowing civilians to carry guns will result in gunfights over parking spaces.
Granted...

However, there's still quite a bit of assumption here.

Most assume that he's "against" the healthcare proposal. But what if he isn't. What if he self selected to "protect" the SEIU/union folks that were there to support the proposal?

The beauty of this country and its system of government is that there can be radical changes swings in the ruling parties, yet you never see tanks in the streets. Rhetoric becomes heated, but it rarely comes to blows. Especially given the sheer volume of weapons and testosterone in our society.

Green's tongue in cheek sarcasm above is salient because of our knowledge of these predicates. It's not the GUNS that keep us from killing each other over healthcare or dog-catcher elections, it's our culture and our trust in each other.

Which is where the rifle comes in.

If it was a handgun, like it was in NH, it wouldn't matter. Folks in AZ and NH and many other states carry handguns openly. It's no big deal. Even the antis are used to it.

But it's very rare and unusual to see someone carry an uncased rifle down the street. Sure there are (or used to be) some rural areas where little Johnny was planning on reducing the local bunny population after school, so he took his .22 with him and stood it in the corner until school was out, but no one else does. It just doesn't happen.

It's an aberration. And being aberrant, it's a threat.

It's not a handgun (which is a means to fight your way to a rifle). It's not a close range defensive tool. A rifle is for serious social work.

Y'all may hurray all you like about this guy "exercising his 2A rights" but this is an inappropriate setting.
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Old 08-17-2009, 2:32 PM
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I was referring to people not behind the iron curtain. But I do live in rural California, so the next time I go out, I'll take my camera with me just for you.
Great. Make sure you take it slung over your shoulder to the Feed and Seed store and the local Waffle House. Let us know what they think.

I lived in Arizona for decades.

I even worked for an FFL. I sold long guns. I sent them home with people on the City Bus...wrapped in butcher paper and securely taped up.

Trust me, it's aberrant to see someone walking around carrying a slung rifle.
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  #64  
Old 08-17-2009, 2:33 PM
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Maybe we should emulate Nicolas Cage and start walking around with archery equipment.

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  #65  
Old 08-17-2009, 2:35 PM
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Trust me, it's aberrant to see someone walking around carrying a slung rifle.

That may be.......but I'd sure like to see that change!
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  #66  
Old 08-17-2009, 2:38 PM
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What I find most interesting about this situation is the mainstream media's inability to understand it. They seem to be truly puzzled, not able to fathom why someone might choose to carry (what they perceive to be) an offensive weapon to a Presidential event.

The MSM is certainly invested in the success of Obama presidency, and they can't stop voicing their fears of an assassination attempt. Also, most of the MSM lives and works in NYC and DC where firearms, much less AR-15s, are never seen nor heard.

So the only rationale they can ascribe to these actions is that they are a thinly-veiled and threatening message of violence aimed directly at the President.

Also, watching CNN in the last hour, I saw an updated version of this story anchored by Wolf Blitzer. They had better audio of the African-American carrying the AR-15. He said he was from "another state" where the police hassled open carriers, and was in Phoenix to exercise his rights — and to "educate" the public about guns and open carry...

The follow-up commentary by CNN talking heads was, "Well, he may have the right, but it sure is a stupid thing to do!"

Last edited by navyinrwanda; 08-17-2009 at 3:12 PM.. Reason: typos
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Old 08-17-2009, 2:46 PM
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Originally Posted by navyinrwanda View Post
Also, watching CNN in the last hour, I saw an updated version of this story anchored by Wolf Blitzer. They had better audio of the African-American carrying the AR-15. He said he was from "another state" where the police hassled open carriers, and was in Phoenix to exercise his rights — and to "educate" the public about guns and open carry!
Whatever state could that be? It's a mystery....

7x57
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Old 08-17-2009, 2:57 PM
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Lol...I'd like to see more usage of the word "aberrant" in this thread please. And I say to the folks that exercise their rights....esp. when it isn't socially accepted.
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Old 08-17-2009, 3:05 PM
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dude you guys totally miss the point, it makes no sense but when taken with his quote "because I can" it makes perfect sense. He feels he needs to do it and I agree. I only wish he was 1/3 indian and 1/3 mexican and was gay and a democrat who doesn't support more taxes.

The biggest problem is not that he did it's that more people didn't.

When it's one guy it's a minority when its a a bunch it's a militia but when it's several hundred people on both sides it's a statement of unity.

I'm sorry but pictures of black panthers in the 60s is not comparable to this.
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Old 08-17-2009, 3:05 PM
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Lol...I'd like to see more usage of the word "aberrant" in this thread please. And I say to the folks that exercise their rights....esp. when it isn't socially accepted.
Are you interested in permutations of the word, too?

Homework for ya, have someone take pics of you carrying an uncased rifle going about your daily routine. Stopping by the grocery store, taking the kids to the zoo (that might be pretty funny), buying gas...

...and post them.

Apparently there's a whole mess of folks that carry around slung rifles all day. Personally, I'm going to hit my optometrist with a malpractice suit.
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Old 08-17-2009, 3:08 PM
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I'm sorry but pictures of black panthers in the 60s is not comparable to this.
Why?
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  #72  
Old 08-17-2009, 3:10 PM
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I wonder how many crosshairs were on him, cool to see that though.
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Old 08-17-2009, 3:11 PM
stormy_clothing stormy_clothing is offline
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Originally Posted by jdberger View Post
Why?
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The group's political goals were often overshadowed by their confrontational, militant, and sometimes violent tactics
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The group created a Ten-Point Program, a document that called for "Land, Bread, Housing, Education, Clothing, Justice and Peace", as well as exemption from military service for African-American men, among other demands.[5] With the Ten-Point program, “What we Want, What We Believe”, the Black Panther Party captured in uncompromising language the collective economic and political grievances articulated by black radical and many black liberals since the 1930s.[6]
read the wiki article on them it contains some fantastic material, you don't demand racial inequalities like military exemption when your 5% of the population.
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Old 08-17-2009, 3:22 PM
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It was amazing to read this thread... wow...

Guys, this is everyday life here in AZ... people walk around here / everywhere with pistols OC / CCW and slung rifles....

Reading this thread one would think you guys don't see that everyday.

.
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Old 08-17-2009, 3:23 PM
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What's the point of OCing a rifle?
Because it won't fit in my pants. I know, I tried.

"Is that a bullet button, or are you just here for the protest?"

Last edited by Maestro Pistolero; 08-17-2009 at 3:26 PM..
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Old 08-17-2009, 3:29 PM
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Originally Posted by stormy_clothing View Post
read the wiki article on them it contains some fantastic material, you don't demand racial inequalities like military exemption when your 5% of the population.
More importantly, you don't demand a military exemption if you want any citizenship rights at all. The intent of the founders was clear--the obligation to military service was fundamental to the citizenship that makes you eligible for legal protections of your rights, and most especially your rights to be armed. They would have quite blunt: if you're too much of a coward and a sociopath that you won't defend your home, you have no rights and no reasonable expectation of rights like voting, arms, and the like. You won't defend the social compact, the social compact won't defend you.

So if they asked for this, then their march on the capitol was pointless and, frankly, ignorant. That's a shame.

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I know every chance I get I'm going to accuse 7x57 of being a shill for LCAV. Because I can.
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Old 08-17-2009, 3:37 PM
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Reading this thread one would think you guys don't see that everyday.
I'm posting the pic challeng to you, too.

Pics of you or others carrying rifles in your everyday activities.

Picking out groceries at Basha's?
Brunch at the Biltmore?
Golf at Troon North?
Maybe a movie at Scottsdale Fashion Square?
Getting gas at Superpumper?
Gettin' truck parts at Desert Rat or Western Tire?

C'mon. This is an everyday occurrence, no? Everyone in AZ carries a slung rifle, you just said so.

Get some pics and post 'em.
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Old 08-17-2009, 3:45 PM
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Thank god a fellow minority is OC'ng. I'll just throw this out there very quickly, I'm black too. And while the views I'm about to mention below don't apply to myself because I know better, it's not the case for a lot of other people out there.

At any rate, my point is that when people think of a republican, they think of some 40-60 year old 80 pound overweight blowhard in a suit(Rush Limbaugh). The reverse for this tends to be true as well, and based on the same description I gave a lot of people automatically assume that old overweight white guy in a suit is a republican.

Getting back to the issue of carrying a firearm, like it or not, when people see a middle aged white guy, at an appropriate weight, wearing casual clothing, some people automatically assume that person is come crazy unabomber timothy mcvey crazy nutjob who's out to assassinate someone.

Now when a minority dressed and groomed nicely is open carrying, the same people making the types of assumptions I mentioned above have no idea wtf to think, and their idiotic train of thought just derails.

And to be honest, if it wasn't for the fact that I simply do not have the time for the hassles that WILL occur in california, I'd be tempted to put on a shirt and tie and go down to a town hall meeting myself.

If you really wanna blow peoples minds? A female minority open carrying a "large" firearm such as a fullsize pistol or a long gun.

As for what side of the healthcare debate this open carrier was on, I don't particularly give a crap, this is the 2a forum section and it certainly looks like he's properly exercising his 2a rights to me. Since he's at a townhall meeting, that probably indicates 1a also. Don't sidetrack the point by going on about what side of healthcare you assume this man is on, ALL of us here and that guy also support 2a rights, keep it to that.
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Old 08-17-2009, 3:53 PM
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LOL....

OK, I got to go to safeway later tonight, Ill get some pics!

.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jdberger View Post
I'm posting the pic challeng to you, too.

Pics of you or others carrying rifles in your everyday activities.

Picking out groceries at Basha's?
Brunch at the Biltmore?
Golf at Troon North?
Maybe a movie at Scottsdale Fashion Square?
Getting gas at Superpumper?
Gettin' truck parts at Desert Rat or Western Tire?

C'mon. This is an everyday occurrence, no? Everyone in AZ carries a slung rifle, you just said so.

Get some pics and post 'em.
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Old 08-17-2009, 4:08 PM
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Lou Dobbs just covered it with Mr. Brady and Alan Gottlieb. I agree with Alan.
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