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Old 04-06-2021, 7:14 PM
Xerxes Xerxes is offline
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Default DROS QUESTION (Transfer of AR lowers as single-shot pistols)

For the FFL's out there.

Does California DOJ allow AR15 receivers to be transferred as single shot pistols?

If not is it by codified law, case law, circular letter, Horned Devil preaching to the FFL choir, just not an option made by DOJ on the computer drop down so they made it illegal by the computer options thus circumventing public scrutiny, other?

My google fu is not working well for me tonight, so sorry if there are 100 prior threads on this topic, just link to one of the better ones if you do not have the energy to type (to many beers?).

Just trying to figure out why one has to pay $1600+ maybe now a days $2500...... for a Franklin single shot if there is another legal option.
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Old 04-06-2021, 7:29 PM
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u need single shot setup
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Old 04-06-2021, 8:49 PM
Bullets&Whitewalls Bullets&Whitewalls is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xerxes View Post
For the FFL's out there.

Does California DOJ allow AR15 receivers to be transferred as single shot pistols?

If not is it by codified law, case law, circular letter, Horned Devil preaching to the FFL choir, just not an option made by DOJ on the computer drop down so they made it illegal by the computer options thus circumventing public scrutiny, other?

My google fu is not working well for me tonight, so sorry if there are 100 prior threads on this topic, just link to one of the better ones if you do not have the energy to type (to many beers?).

Just trying to figure out why one has to pay $1600+ maybe now a days $2500...... for a Franklin single shot if there is another legal option.
The reason people are paying those prices is because the gun you mentioned is not single shot. It is a bolt action repeater. Or they are semi auto. Single shot would mean the ability to only load a single round and fire it. Converting to semi after purchase is a whole nother topic that will undoubtedly de rail this thread.no I am not an FFL

Last edited by Bullets&Whitewalls; 04-06-2021 at 8:51 PM..
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Old 04-06-2021, 9:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xerxes View Post
For the FFL's out there.

Does California DOJ allow AR15 receivers to be transferred as single shot pistols?
The short answer is no. An AR receiver cannot be transferred as a single shot pistol.

An AR receiver is not, by definition, an exempted single shot pistol.

"Existing law provides for the testing of handguns and requires the Department of Justice to maintain a roster listing all handguns that are determined not to be unsafe handguns. Existing law makes it a crime, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, to manufacture, import into the state for sale, keep for sale, offer or expose for sale, give, or lend an unsafe handgun. Existing law makes the provisions defining and governing unsafe handguns inapplicable to a single-shot pistol, as specified." AB 1964 (2014)

"(b) Article 4 (commencing with Section 31900) and Article 5 (commencing with Section 32000) shall not apply to a single-shot pistol with a break top or bolt action and a barrel length of not less than six inches and that has an overall length of at least 10˝ inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled. However, Article 4 (commencing with Section 31900) and Article 5 (commencing with Section 32000) shall apply to a semiautomatic pistol that has been temporarily or permanently altered so that it will not fire in a semiautomatic mode." Cal. Penal Code Sec. 32100 (2021).

Without a barrel and bolt, there is no exemption. If there is no exemption, Section 31900, et. seq. apply. If those sections apply, the handgun must meet the requirements of a safe handgun, including, drop safe, chamber indicator and, of course, micro stamping. Again, a bare receiver will not pass these tests and is therefore would be an "unsafe" handgun.

Now, if the transferee is exempt from the safe handgun requirements, i.e., a LEO, the receiver could be transferred as a pistol. The same goes for other exempt transactions, such as importation and registration of a receiver acquired from out of state and imported by a new California resident. Otherwise, no.

The other legal option is to find a Class 7 dealer that will assemble a single shot exempt AR for you.

Now a better question is "What is the legal effect, if any, of using a virgin AR receiver that was DROSed in California as a long gun, to build an AR Pistol?" I'm not going to touch that one. Oh, I'm not an FFL either.

Last edited by AFTII; 04-06-2021 at 9:19 PM..
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Old 04-06-2021, 9:25 PM
hitdank hitdank is online now
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As i understand it, you can own short barrels with a california receiver but cannot assemble a pistol while here.
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Old 04-06-2021, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by hitdank View Post
As i understand it, you can own short barrels with a california receiver but cannot assemble a pistol while here.
You should not possess short barrel uppers near rifle lowers unless you have pistol lowers. That goes for every state in the country.

See United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Company, 504 U.S. 505 (1992),
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ru...stols/download

And there is no such thing as a 'California receiver'

And yes, you can legally build a single shot or bolt action AR pistol here, for instance using a 80% lower.
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Old 04-06-2021, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
You should not possess short barrel uppers near rifle lowers unless you have pistol lowers. That goes for every state in the country.

See United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Company, 504 U.S. 505 (1992),
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ru...stols/download

And there is no such thing as a 'California receiver'

And yes, you can legally build a single shot or bolt action AR pistol here, for instance using a 80% lower.
what is close proximity? i understand keeping the two next to one another could be considered "intent to construct'' but how close are we talking about? same house same room? or same gun case? whats the limiting factor here

let's say you have 5 AR lowers and 5 pistol lowers in the same house and you have short-barreled uppers..Do you need to keep them in separate rooms?
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Old 04-07-2021, 6:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Betfair39 View Post
what is close proximity? i understand keeping the two next to one another could be considered "intent to construct'' but how close are we talking about? same house same room? or same gun case? whats the limiting factor here

let's say you have 5 AR lowers and 5 pistol lowers in the same house and you have short-barreled uppers..Do you need to keep them in separate rooms?
I have read that you can't keep it in the same location. Though I have also read that you can't have any control over one. That includes having control of one in another state. This is for when you don't have a pistol lower or SBR lower.

Now, for those who DO have pistol lowers or SBR lowers it's different. I've read that if you also own rifle lowers that you should own 1 to 1 for your pistols/SBR lowers. And, if you only own pistol/SBR lowers then you can have as many short barreled uppers as you want.

Now, again these are things that I've read and I don't know if they are correct but they do make sense to me.

If you have a mix collection and you have a 1 to 1 ratio for uppers and lowers it's easily defendable that you intend only to configure legal firearms. And, if you only have pistol/SBR lowers having as many different short barreled uppers is no difference than having multiple 16"+ uppers for your single/few rifle lowers.
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”Benitez 3:29 Thou shall not limit magazine capacity”
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Old 04-07-2021, 8:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Betfair39 View Post
what is close proximity? i understand keeping the two next to one another could be considered "intent to construct'' but how close are we talking about? same house same room?
If it were me I would not keep them on the same property or even within walking distance. The law does not deal with intent to construct. It deals with possession and constructive possession. If you possess the parts the court said you possess the (NFA) gun, if there is no other useful purpose for the parts.

'Possess' could cover a lot of distance, perhaps even spanning multiple properties miles or even cities apart.
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Old 04-07-2021, 9:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Bullets&Whitewalls View Post
Single shot would mean the ability to only load a single round and fire it.
My first thought was, the OP wants to block the mag well and load each round by hand??

I got tired of correcting people here on CGs about this "single shot" business. Too many gun owners need more education on guns and basic terminology.
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Old 04-07-2021, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Betfair39 View Post
what is close proximity? i understand keeping the two next to one another could be considered "intent to construct'' but how close are we talking about? same house same room? or same gun case? whats the limiting factor here
Under CA laws...
No intent is required, what's required is the person has possession of or control over or ownership of the parts.
Does not matter where the parts are located.
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Last edited by Quiet; 04-07-2021 at 10:16 AM..
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Old 04-07-2021, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Ki6vsm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullets&Whitewalls View Post
The reason people are paying those prices is because the gun you mentioned is not single shot. It is a bolt action repeater. Or they are semi auto. Single shot would mean the ability to only load a single round and fire it. Converting to semi after purchase is a whole nother topic that will undoubtedly de rail this thread.no I am not an FFL
My first thought was, the OP wants to block the mag well and load each round by hand??

I got tired of correcting people here on CGs about this "single shot" business. Too many gun owners need more education on guns and basic terminology.
single-shot = cartridge is loaded/unloaded directly into/from the chamber and firearm does not have a magazine capacity (must have a fixed 0 round capacity magazine or no ability to accept a magazine).

repeating = firearm has a fixed magazine capacity or the ability to utilize detachable magazines.
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Old 04-07-2021, 1:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
single-shot = cartridge is loaded/unloaded directly into/from the chamber and firearm does not have a magazine capacity (must have a fixed 0 round capacity magazine or no ability to accept a magazine).

repeating = firearm has a fixed magazine capacity or the ability to utilize detachable magazines.
Exactly. I didn't spell it out again because the person I'd quoted already had. It's such basic info that this shouldn't need to be explained to people thinking of putting together their own gun.
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Old 04-07-2021, 7:13 PM
Xerxes Xerxes is offline
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Thank you for all your kindly replies

During my recent pickup of some Anderson Lowers at Sportsman I was asked if I was going to build the receiver as a Center Fire Semi Automatic and he clicked on the laptop keyboard.

That got me to thinking why can't the receiver be bought to assemble a single shot pistol thus exempt from the handgun roster. (no working gas block, no gas tube, solid wedge installed in magazine well that requires opening the action to remove the screw). 5+ Years ago those 80% receivers made as single shot exempt then converted was popular-I might have even done 2 of those and CFARs them as pistols then AW's back in the day when we had that SSE stampede at the gun shops.......and then would have **** my pants if I did do 2 of these through CFARS when the four threads and one You-tub video came back with confiscations from the DOJ commandos with their short barreled M4's showed up at your door-though apparently all had years wrong on their applications.

Yes it is verboten to later convert these to semi automatic by circular letter and published opinion by the DOJ, but folks are paying high dollars for those Franklins, and adding a faux AR15 pistol that I will call an AR-1 has value to me, just not $2500 of value to me.

The question was for the FFL's out there that can speak to fact, and not opinion.
,
Can the AR15 receiver be DROS'd as a single shot pistol since the FEDS do not consider it a pistol or rifle until assembled or there is official documentation declaring it as such like a DROS.

ATFII says no you can not.
The second part of the question was why not?
ATFII used a Logic analogy to say why.
I would counter that the receiver .... though not a single shot is neither any of the other things either ....(or.... I am seeking education on how CA defines these and how -by law, by published interpretations/opinion, administration action, other???) .......so I see a raw virgin material to mold into the gun type of my choice with a stripped receiver. Because they do not specifically allow it in writing, it is therefore verboten.

The glass half full says it does not forbid it in writing (or if it does that is the education I am seeking-and how it is forbidden-by law, by published opinion...and so on), .......thus it is not forbidden.

Obviously there must be something (CA Law, DOJ circular letter of understanding sent to the FFL's, administrative action, a published opinion/response to a particular question, case law from a prosecution, or just leaving that option off the Computerized DROS drop boxes so an FFL cannot transfer as pistol). I am also wondering how all those ar15 receivers being sold by the over priced classified cowboys advertised as "DROS'd as handgun" were done if verboten.

I am asking because I was asked this question by the "OFFICIAL" FFL at the Sportsman counter who asked me what kind of firearms I would assemble it as,...I said centerfire semi-automatic..... then I watched him click the keyboard and proceed to ask me the next question (screen was not visible to see the choices that he clicked one) is why I am asking.....-I was just slow that day and did not think to ask him .....but thought when I was halfway home......what was that question about????

A metal receiver single shot pistol for the range toy to preserve the two polymer 80% registered pistol builds and AW registered THAT I DO NOT OWN (those things have a 300-3000 round design life before they break) would have value to me if it was not $2500 .....as the parts I DO NOT OWN EITHER could be multi-purposed on either the registered home rolled plastic receiver or the metal receiver and only cost whatever the metal receiver cost----though it would make sense to add the LPK and buffer/stock for easy peasy swapping of the upper.

So what make the AR15 stripped receiver DROS'd as single shot handgun verboten??????
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Old 04-07-2021, 9:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Xerxes View Post
That got me to thinking why can't the receiver be bought to assemble a single shot pistol thus exempt from the handgun roster.
Because the single shot exemption from the handgun roster specifically states a minimum overall length, a minimum barrel length, and one of two specific types of loading actions. A receiver alone has none of that during the time of transfer, therefore it is not eligible for the roster exemption and the dealer cannot process it as a roster exempt handgun. It is a catch-22.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...0.&lawCode=PEN


Quote:
(b) Article 4 (commencing with Section 31900) and Article 5 (commencing with Section 32000) shall not apply to a single-shot pistol with a break top or bolt action and a barrel length of not less than six inches and that has an overall length of at least 10˝ inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled. However, Article 4 (commencing with Section 31900) and Article 5 (commencing with Section 32000) shall apply to a semiautomatic pistol that has been temporarily or permanently altered so that it will not fire in a semiautomatic mode.
That is why it has to be DROSd as a complete(ish) gun.

You could in theory make your own from a 80% lower, after receiving DOJ approval to proceed. You would have to submit photos of the completed gun at the end of the process.
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Last edited by SkyHawk; 04-08-2021 at 11:11 AM..
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Old 04-08-2021, 1:31 PM
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SkyHawk - Correct me if I'm wrong but that's exactly how folks like 2a Zone in Rancho are able to sell receivers as SSE pistols because they sell you a complete firearm that meets those specifications. After the transaction, they "buy back" the upper from you, leaving you with a complete lower that has been transferred as an SSE pistol. Question is, do they have to block the mag well? If so, can anyone who has purchased such a firearm comment on how the mag well was temporarily blocked such that you were able to convert it to semi later on?
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Old 04-08-2021, 1:33 PM
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SkyHawk - Correct me if I'm wrong but that's exactly how folks like 2a Zone in Rancho are able to sell receivers as SSE pistols because they sell you a complete firearm that meets those specifications. After the transaction, they "buy back" the upper from you, leaving you with a complete lower that has been transferred as an SSE pistol. Question is, do they have to block the mag well? If so, can anyone who has purchased such a firearm comment on how the mag well was temporarily blocked such that you were able to convert it to semi later on?
Yes, that is a workaround. Sell a complete pistol, buy back unwanted parts. That is how they are able to sell Glock frames, among others.

I am not sure exactly what 2AZ is doing for their custom single shot P320 though.
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