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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #121  
Old 05-10-2018, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Not exactly.
There are three separate internal safeties that prevent the trigger from "pulling itself" or the firing pin from moving forward due to impact.
Short story, the Glock, and most striker-fired guns, will NOT discharge unless the trigger is pulled.
A 1911 with the safety off does not have these same protections.
Yes, the grip safety being depressed and the trigger pull are in opposite directions... but that is assuming that your grip safety works. My RIA grip safety was not functional after an upgrade to a curved MSH. The only trigger safety it had was the manual safety.
Most current designs do have a firing pin safety that requires the trigger to be pulled, so an impact to the muzzle will not result in discharge, but older models do not.

This.
Whatever is carried, practice AND training is paramount.
Practicing incorrectly is worse than not practicing at all. We ALL need to be taught proper shooting techniques before we can practice properly.

I think most people's primary concern and the reason they want a safety on their gun is to stop it from going off IF THE TRIGGER IS pulled accidentally.

In that regard a Glock essentially doesn't have a safety. I haven't heard anyone express a major concern with the gun going off if dropped. Sure that happens occasionally but far more often it's an issue with the trigger being pulled accidentally.
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  #122  
Old 05-10-2018, 11:53 AM
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This is a common question with new carriers. It is usually due to a lack of knowledge and or confidence in a weapon designs safety.

I personally would never carry a weapon I have not loaded and chamber checked before trusting it with my life.

Striker fired weapons are designed to be carried with a chambered round. As stated by others, ND's are usually caused by careless holstering. Clear your garment and look it back into the holster obnoxiously slow.

Look on YouTube at videos by Active Self Protection. They have many examples of the difficulty you can experience in a stressful situation trying to chamber a round...
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  #123  
Old 05-10-2018, 1:19 PM
Dribear Dribear is offline
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Other than what others have already stated. If you really want to carry a Glock. Maybe you shoud start with an XD that has a grip safety, then move up to a Glock.
Or train and learn to carry a DA/SA, or SAO with safety.
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  #124  
Old 05-10-2018, 1:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I take shots View Post
I think most people's primary concern and the reason they want a safety on their gun is to stop it from going off IF THE TRIGGER IS pulled accidentally.

In that regard a Glock essentially doesn't have a safety. I haven't heard anyone express a major concern with the gun going off if dropped. Sure that happens occasionally but far more often it's an issue with the trigger being pulled accidentally.
That's why there is such a thing as a Glock 'New York Trigger' (another link)- the conversion of NYPD from revolvers to Glocks surfaced the trigger-control problems.

If I could get a CCW in Contra Costa, I would carry one of my Glocks with a round in the chamber.
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Last edited by Librarian; 05-10-2018 at 1:31 PM..
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  #125  
Old 05-10-2018, 6:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I take shots View Post
I think most people's primary concern and the reason they want a safety on their gun is to stop it from going off IF THE TRIGGER IS pulled accidentally negligently.

In that regard a Glock essentially doesn't have a safety. I haven't heard anyone express a major concern with the gun going off if dropped. Sure that happens occasionally but far more often it's an issue with the trigger being pulled accidentally negligently.
Please call it what it is.


Snagging the trigger on clothing or a drawstring is negligence.
Pulling the trigger while drawing because you did not index properly is negligence.
Snagging the trigger on the edge of a cheap or improperly supporting holster is negligence.


Holsters require regular inspection and maintenance just as guns do.
Training and practice can prevent all of the above.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #126  
Old 05-10-2018, 7:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Please call it what it is.


Snagging the trigger on clothing or a drawstring is negligence.
Pulling the trigger while drawing because you did not index properly is negligence.
Snagging the trigger on the edge of a cheap or improperly supporting holster is negligence.


Holsters require regular inspection and maintenance just as guns do.
Training and practice can prevent all of the above.
How do you train and practice staring down the barrel surrounded by 4 thugs? There's a reason why combat handguns are DAO or DA/SA. Leave the Mickey Mouse triggers to target shooters at the local range.
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  #127  
Old 05-10-2018, 7:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igs View Post
How do you train and practice staring down the barrel surrounded by 4 thugs? There's a reason why combat handguns are DAO or DA/SA. Leave the Mickey Mouse triggers to target shooters at the local range.
DAO or DA/SA beats the hell out of Condition-3 when you're surrounded by 4 thugs.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #128  
Old 05-11-2018, 7:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Please call it what it is.


Snagging the trigger on clothing or a drawstring is negligence.
Pulling the trigger while drawing because you did not index properly is negligence.
Snagging the trigger on the edge of a cheap or improperly supporting holster is negligence.

Definition of accident
1 a : an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance Their meeting was an accident.
b : lack of intention or necessity : chance They met by accident rather than by design.
2 a : an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or ignorance was involved in a traffic accident


Negligence results in accidents. There is no problem with my wording.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Holsters require regular inspection and maintenance just as guns do.
Training and practice can prevent all of the above.
Nothing can prevent all accidents when humans are involved.
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  #129  
Old 05-11-2018, 11:34 AM
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I only do it with a new gun to test it out for a while before going with one in the chamber. If it passes the test, then I start carrying with one in the pipe. I trust manufacturers to produce good products on average. But only on average.
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  #130  
Old 05-11-2018, 5:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I take shots View Post
Nothing can prevent all accidents when humans are involved.
There are a lot more people who have never and will never shoot themselves with their Glock, or any gun, than there are or ever have been people who have.

And it is negligence, pure and simple.
People use the term "accidental shooting" to push the blame away from their negligence.

An "accident" is the result of an unsafe act coupled with an unsafe condition.
Frequently (as with an auto accident) they both occur at the same time. Other times, the unsafe condition exists for an extended period without there being a problem because of an unsafe act.

Texting while driving, worn holster, jacket with drawstrings at 3:00 and 9:00....

Shooting yourself is indeed 100% preventable.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.

Last edited by Cokebottle; 05-11-2018 at 5:34 PM..
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  #131  
Old 05-11-2018, 5:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I take shots View Post
I think most people's primary concern and the reason they want a safety on their gun is to stop it from going off IF THE TRIGGER IS pulled accidentally.
Pros/Cons:
-Glock safety system:
- -Con:
- - -Don’t pay attention and get stuff into the guard when holstering.
- - -Set off gun and shoot leg/foot.
- -Pro:
- - -Pull gun, pull trigger, shoot bad guy.
-External safety:
- -Con:
- - -Don’t pay attention and forget to set the safety;
- - -Get stuff into the guard when holstering.
- - -Set off gun and shoot leg/foot
- -Pro:
- -Set safety, pull gun, forget to sweep safety, die.

Oh, wait.....

The point, here, is that external safeties require significant training to lock the muscle memory. Complacency will create problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by igs View Post
How do you train and practice staring down the barrel surrounded by 4 thugs? There's a reason why combat handguns are DAO or DA/SA. Leave the Mickey Mouse triggers to target shooters at the local range.
How the Heck did you find yourself in a situation “...staring down the barrel surrounded by 4 thugs”? You can’t outdraw a drawn gun. Move to it, and it doesn’t matter if it’s DAO or DA/SA. You won’t clear your weapon before you’re dead. Paying attention to your surroundings is sort of important.
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Last edited by Dvrjon; 05-11-2018 at 6:12 PM..
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  #132  
Old 05-11-2018, 5:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I take shots View Post
Definition of accident
1 a : an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance Their meeting was an accident.
b : lack of intention or necessity : chance They met by accident rather than by design.
2 a : an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or ignorance was involved in a traffic accident


Negligence results in accidents. There is no problem with my wording.

Nothing can prevent all accidents when humans are involved.
Quote:
neg·li·gence

noun:
failure to take proper care in doing something.
"some of these accidents are due to negligence"
LAW
failure to use reasonable care, resulting in damage or injury to another.
See the difference? If you COULD have taken action to prevent the “accident”, then it wasn’t accidental.
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  #133  
Old 05-11-2018, 6:02 PM
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Im not sure why, but there is a subset of gun owners who seem to dislike the word 'negligence' and want to call everything an accident even if it was the result of negligence.
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  #134  
Old 05-14-2018, 6:33 AM
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Originally Posted by DrScorpio View Post
Im not sure why, but there is a subset of gun owners who seem to dislike the word 'negligence' and want to call everything an accident even if it was the result of negligence.
It's not that a segment of gun owners dislike the word negligent. It's that there is a (very large) segment of the population that uses the word accident to describe negative outcomes that weren't intended (which is clearly included in every dictionary definition of the word, typically the first entry).

Then there's a segment of the population that thinks there's only one proper use for every word (false) and jumps all over people when they say "I accidentally spilled my coffee".

"That spill was no accident you must have been negligently holding your cup with an improper grip and walking in a negligent manner. You should have used a cup with a lid, that spill was no accident, it was clearly preventable!!!".

Get over yourselves

The word accident has been used for longer than any of us has been alive to describe things that happen unintentionally regardless of whether they were preventable or caused by negligence.
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  #135  
Old 05-14-2018, 6:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
See the difference? If you COULD have taken action to prevent the “accident”, then it wasn’t accidental.
Your own quote uses the word accident to refer to things caused by negligence.

There's nothing wrong with using the word accident to describe an unintended shooting even if it were the result of negligence. Unless the shooter intended to shoot themselves or someone else it's an accident.

I don't think anyone is arguing against the use of the word negligence. So why are you arguing against accident. Both are accurate. One speaks of intention (accidental) and the other speaks of the level of care taken to prevent (negligence).
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  #136  
Old 05-14-2018, 9:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I take shots View Post
Your own quote uses the word accident to refer to things caused by negligence.

There's nothing wrong with using the word accident to describe an unintended shooting even if it were the result of negligence. Unless the shooter intended to shoot themselves or someone else it's an accident.

I don't think anyone is arguing against the use of the word negligence. So why are you arguing against accident. Both are accurate. One speaks of intention (accidental) and the other speaks of the level of care taken to prevent (negligence).
You’re confusing the noun “accident” with the adjective “negligent”. The firearm discharges are due either to accidental circumstances or negligent circumstances, as opposed to willful actions (specifically intended).

And sometimes, they both apply to or are contingent upon circumstances. I’m sure the CoP who shot himself (twice) and the DEA guy who shot himself in the foot in a classroom didn’t intend to. That makes the events “accidents”, but they are all negligent discharges.

Tort/personal injury attorneys will explain the difference in court.

“It was an accident. I didn’t intend to kill him when I aimed the empty gun at him and pulled the trigger.”

Different viewpoints on the characterization of the discharge:
If spoken by a 30-something gun owner.
If spoken by a four-year old who found a loaded gun.

Best.
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Last edited by Dvrjon; 05-14-2018 at 9:50 AM..
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  #137  
Old 05-14-2018, 8:19 PM
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Per Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary, 1965...

ACCIDENT/ACCIDENTAL
"ACCIDENT" is the root word. It is a NOUN. It comes from Latin, accidere, "to happen".
"ACCIDENTAL" is its adjectival form.

NEGLIGENCE/NEGLIGENT
"NEGLIGENT" is the root word. It is an ADJECTIVE. It comes from Latin, neglegens, present participle of neglegere (no translation given).
"NEGLIGENCE" is its nominal (noun) form.

Accident/accidental is the broader definition and describes the totality of the event without regard to cause, while negligence/negligent is the narrower definition, and indicates a responsible party. "Accidental discharge" is not an improper term, regardless of whether negligence was involved or not.

In the presence of negligence, it's still an accident.
"accident: 2a: an unfortunate event resulting from carelessness,..."
"careless: 3a NEGLIGENT."
CARELESSNESS>NEGLIGENCE>ACCIDENT

An accident resulting from negligence is still an accident. We can choose to use the term "negligent discharge" and "accidental discharge" interchangeably where negligence was involved, though I understand why "negligent discharge" is preferable in such a case as it conveys more information. Still, an "accidental discharge" due to negligence is not an incorrect use of the term.

Last edited by leadchucker; 05-14-2018 at 8:21 PM..
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  #138  
Old 05-15-2018, 8:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
See the difference? If you COULD have taken action to prevent the “accident”, then it wasn’t accidental.
More than one thing can be true at the same time.
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  #139  
Old 05-15-2018, 8:07 AM
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this thread is balls deep in the weeds now.

Sent using a long string and 2 Dixie cups
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  #140  
Old 05-15-2018, 8:28 AM
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Originally Posted by FeuerFrei View Post
this thread is balls deep in the weeds now.
Almost navel deep.
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  #141  
Old 05-15-2018, 1:00 PM
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And we ought to move on from the vocabulary and usage discussion, he says, Moderator hat "on".
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  #142  
Old 05-16-2018, 8:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rorge Retson View Post
These guys have it right. You carry, you carry the way you need to carry -- for safety and comfort -- for you, and you alone. It doesn't matter how you do it, just that you practice the way you do it, over and over again, until you are proficient.

I've never understood this "My way is the only way..." stuff. If you like a certain way, then say why, and let the other person adopt your style based on its merits. No way of carrying is 100% perfect, just like no weapon is perfect. Each has its upsides and downsides.

Personally, I first carried a 1911 in the military in condition one, because that is what we were taught. Later, as a civilian, I found weapons I could carry that way, but had more than 9 rounds (e.g. CZs). Now, I am confident carrying either an XD or a CZ, but only after practicing with each.
This. Go do a four day class (all CCW holders should anyways) and probably after that you won't even remember why you were concerned about this in the first place. Maybe you'd decide to still carry without a round chambered, but it won't be because you're afraid of the weapon any more.
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