Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > CONCEALED CARRY/LICENSE TO CARRY > Non-California Permits/Licenses
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Non-California Permits/Licenses For out of State License/Permit discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-10-2017, 5:31 PM
HawkMan HawkMan is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 484
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default Arizona

I'm in Tempe, Arizona right now and have already noticed some no gun signs while walking around. I went to the mall and there was a sign which included "no weapons."

What signs can be ignored and what can't? I'm just visiting, so I don't believe I can carry in bars, but can I ignore a sign as long as it isn't a gun in a red circle with a line through it?

Basically, where can I carry and where can I not?

Also, I'm visiting the ASU campus tomorrow, can I legally carry there or no?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-10-2017, 5:41 PM
Quiet's Avatar
Quiet Quiet is offline
retired Goon
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Bernardino County
Posts: 21,304
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

No firearm signs have some force of law in AZ.

If you do not have a valid carry permit and are carrying via constitutional carry, then you can not legally carry within an establishment that sells alcohol for consumption (restaurant, bar, club, etc).

If you do have a valid carry permit and the establishment that sells alcohol for consumption (restaurant, bar, club, etc) has a posted no weapons sign, then you can not legally carry within that establishment.

It is not legal to carry or possess a firearm on school/college property.
^Does not matter if you have a valid carry permit or not.
__________________


"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.” - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).

Last edited by Quiet; 08-10-2017 at 5:47 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-10-2017, 5:44 PM
monk's Avatar
monk monk is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 4,617
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
No firearm signs have some force of law in AZ.

If you do not have a valid carry permit and are carrying via constitutional carry, then you can not legally carry within an establishment that sells alcohol for consumption (restaurant, bar, club, etc).

If you do have a valid carry permit and the establishment that sells alcohol for consumption (restaurant, bar, club, etc) has a posted no weapons sign, then you can not legally carry within that establishment.

It is not legal to carry or possess a firearm on school/college property.
^Does not matter if you have a valid carry permit or not.
My CCW instructor said that they mean nothing. The only thing is if they ask you to leave and you don't, you are trespassing. If they never ask you though... No problem. They also have to ask you first to leave before claiming trespassing.

If you do end up using it for self-defense... Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.
__________________


NRA Member
SAF Member


Quote:
A tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-10-2017, 5:45 PM
HawkMan HawkMan is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 484
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
No firearm signs have some force of law in AZ.

If you do not have a valid carry permit and are carrying via constitutional carry, then you can not legally carry within an establishment that sells alcohol for consumption (restaurant, bar, club, etc).

If you do have a valid carry permit and the establishment that sells alcohol for consumption (restaurant, bar, club, etc) has a posted no weapons sign, then you can not legally carry within that establishment.

It is not legal to carry or possess a firearm on school/college property.
^Does not matter if you have a valid carry permit or not.
Some people said that the no gun signs of businesses have to follow certain requirements such as being obvious and not hidden and posted with a picture of a gun in a red circle with a red line through it. Is this true?

Obviously if I get asked to leave I will, but if there are any signs I can legally ignore then I'd love to know.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-10-2017, 5:47 PM
Quiet's Avatar
Quiet Quiet is offline
retired Goon
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Bernardino County
Posts: 21,304
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkMan View Post
Some people said that the no gun signs of businesses have to follow certain requirements such as being obvious and not hidden and posted with a picture of a gun in a red circle with a red line through it. Is this true?

Obviously if I get asked to leave I will, but if there are any signs I can legally ignore then I'd love to know.
If the establishment does not sell alcohol for consumption and it is not a Gov owned/operate building, then the no weapons sign can be ignored (there is no legal enforcement of it).
__________________


"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.” - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-10-2017, 5:48 PM
HawkMan HawkMan is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 484
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
If the establishment does not sell alcohol for consumption and it is not a Gov owned/operate building, then the no weapons sign can be ignored.
And what's the deal with places having to provide storage if they don't allow guns? Is this just government buildings or all businesses?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-10-2017, 5:58 PM
Quiet's Avatar
Quiet Quiet is offline
retired Goon
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Bernardino County
Posts: 21,304
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by monk View Post
My CCW instructor said that they mean nothing. The only thing is if they ask you to leave and you don't, you are trespassing. If they never ask you though... No problem. They also have to ask you first to leave before claiming trespassing.

If you do end up using it for self-defense... Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.
AFAIK...
Under AZ laws [ARS 4-229], it's a misdemeanor to carry in an establishment that sells alcohol for consumption and has a posted no firearms sign.
But, under those same AZ laws, it is an affirmative defense to say you did not see the sign and that you are a non-resident of AZ. (AZ LEOs will give you a verbal warning)
__________________


"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.” - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-10-2017, 6:01 PM
Quiet's Avatar
Quiet Quiet is offline
retired Goon
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Bernardino County
Posts: 21,304
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkMan View Post
And what's the deal with places having to provide storage if they don't allow guns? Is this just government buildings or all businesses?
AFAIK...
Only Gov owned/operated buildings are required to have firearm storage capabilities.
__________________


"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.” - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-10-2017, 8:37 PM
fiddletown's Avatar
fiddletown fiddletown is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 4,320
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by monk View Post
My CCW instructor said that they mean nothing. The only thing is if they ask you to leave and you don't, you are trespassing. If they never ask you though.....
Your CCW is ignorant and doesn't understand Arizona law.

One must look at the Arizona criminal trespass law, ARS 13-1502 (emphasis added):
Quote:
13-1502. Criminal trespass in the third degree; classification
A. A person commits criminal trespass in the third degree by:
1. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on any real property after a reasonable request to leave by the owner or any other person having lawful control over such property, or reasonable notice prohibiting entry.

2. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on the right-of-way for tracks, or the storage or switching yards or rolling stock of a railroad company.
B. Criminal trespass in the third degree is a class 3 misdemeanor.
Notice that it is criminal trespass in Arizona not only when one stays after being asked to leave. It is also criminal trespass to enter if one is on notice that entry is prohibited.

The question therefore becomes whether a "no guns" sign on private property is reasonable notice prohibiting entry by one carrying a gun. If an Arizona court would say, or has said, that it is, a "no guns" sign indeed has the force of law.

Certainly on the face of things it looks like a "no gun" sign could well be considered reasonable notice that entry to the premises with a gun is prohibited.

If you still contend that a "no guns" sign doesn't have the force of law in Arizona, cite an Arizona court decision so ruling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
If the establishment does not sell alcohol for consumption and it is not a Gov owned/operate building, then the no weapons sign can be ignored (there is no legal enforcement of it).
Cite some law to that effect. I've just demonstrated that you're wrong.

Note also that Handgunlaw.us agrees with my analysis.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-11-2017, 10:01 PM
monk's Avatar
monk monk is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 4,617
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
Your CCW is ignorant and doesn't understand Arizona law.

One must look at the Arizona criminal trespass law, ARS 13-1502 (emphasis added):Notice that it is criminal trespass in Arizona not only when one stays after being asked to leave. It is also criminal trespass to enter if one is on notice that entry is prohibited.

The question therefore becomes whether a "no guns" sign on private property is reasonable notice prohibiting entry by one carrying a gun. If an Arizona court would say, or has said, that it is, a "no guns" sign indeed has the force of law.

Certainly on the face of things it looks like a "no gun" sign could well be considered reasonable notice that entry to the premises with a gun is prohibited.

If you still contend that a "no guns" sign doesn't have the force of law in Arizona, cite an Arizona court decision so ruling.

Cite some law to that effect. I've just demonstrated that you're wrong.

Note also that Handgunlaw.us agrees with my analysis.
I think you're confusing "No firearms" with "No trespassing". The simple answer is, if a business has a posted sign, and they notice that you are carrying, they have to ask you to leave before it is trespassing. If you do not leave then legally it is trespassing.
__________________


NRA Member
SAF Member


Quote:
A tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny.

Last edited by monk; 08-11-2017 at 10:04 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-11-2017, 10:11 PM
fiddletown's Avatar
fiddletown fiddletown is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 4,320
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by monk View Post
I think you're confusing "No firearms" with "No trespassing". The simple answer is, if a business has a posted sign, and they notice that you are carrying, they have to ask you to leave before it is trespassing. If you do not leave then legally it is trespassing.
No. If one is not permitted to enter on to property while carrying a firearm, and if he enters on to that property, he is trespassing. He has entered the property without permission because permission to enter onto the property is conditioned on not being in possession of a firearm.

That is how the law of trespassing works.

So if a business has posted "no guns", and if you enter in possession of a gun, you are committing criminal trespass at that point. The crime is complete once you enter the premises while in possession of a gun.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-11-2017, 10:14 PM
HawkMan HawkMan is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 484
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
No. If one is not permitted to enter on to property while carrying a firearm, and if he enters on to that property, he is trespassing. He has entered the property without permission because permission to enter onto the property is conditioned on not being in possession of a firearm.

That is how the law of trespassing works.

So if a business has posted "no guns", and if you enter in possession of a gun, you are committing criminal trespass at that point. The crime is complete once you enter the premises while in possession of a gun.
Is there anything in Arizona at the moment to work on these sign laws? The only thing keeping it from being the perfect gun state is the signs having force of law. I'd love the law to be you have to be asked to leave, that way you could most likely at least conceal carry.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-11-2017, 10:16 PM
fiddletown's Avatar
fiddletown fiddletown is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 4,320
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkMan View Post
Is there anything in Arizona at the moment to work on these sign laws? .....
I have no idea.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-11-2017, 10:17 PM
monk's Avatar
monk monk is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 4,617
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
No. If one is not permitted to enter on to property while carrying a firearm, and if he enters on to that property, he is trespassing. He has entered the property without permission because permission to enter onto the property is conditioned on not being in possession of a firearm.

That is how the law of trespassing works.

So if a business has posted "no guns", and if you enter in possession of a gun, you are committing criminal trespass at that point. The crime is complete once you enter the premises while in possession of a gun.
I'm going to set up a meeting with a criminal defense lawyer some point this month and am going to ask him this, among other, questions.
__________________


NRA Member
SAF Member


Quote:
A tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-11-2017, 10:26 PM
fiddletown's Avatar
fiddletown fiddletown is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 4,320
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by monk View Post
I'm going to set up a meeting with a criminal defense lawyer some point this month and am going to ask him this, among other, questions.
Good idea.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-11-2017, 10:50 PM
M1NM's Avatar
M1NM M1NM is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: West Covina
Posts: 5,449
iTrader: 44 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkMan View Post
Is there anything in Arizona at the moment to work on these sign laws? .
Private property = their rules
Don't like it = don't enter
Don't enter = they get no money
They get no money = your rules
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-11-2017, 11:16 PM
HawkMan HawkMan is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 484
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M1NM View Post
Private property = their rules
Don't like it = don't enter
Don't enter = they get no money
They get no money = your rules
People keep saying this like it's nothing, but to be honest, there are some places family and friends want to go and they don't allow guns. My mom got kinda pissed when I told her I couldn't go into a certain restaurant because I was carrying.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-12-2017, 10:53 AM
GlockUnCut's Avatar
GlockUnCut GlockUnCut is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: █████████
Posts: 36
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

I do understand the logic and respect the right to choose who they serve.

Just like a restaurant with this sign:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg No Service.jpg (20.7 KB, 54 views)
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09-29-2017, 11:06 PM
Twiki357 Twiki357 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: The Constitutional Carry State of Arizona.
Posts: 287
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkMan View Post
Is there anything in Arizona at the moment to work on these sign laws? The only thing keeping it from being the perfect gun state is the signs having force of law. I'd love the law to be you have to be asked to leave, that way you could most likely at least conceal carry.
We’ve tried a couple of times but the proposed changes end up with other crap added in that makes it worse than what it currently is, so it gets voted down.

And as for legally prohibited places, in addition to government facilities, large events like concerts and sporting events are also prohibited by law.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 09-29-2017, 11:24 PM
Cokebottle's Avatar
Cokebottle Cokebottle is offline
Guitar: The Deplorables
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Chino, CA
Posts: 29,085
iTrader: 14 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
AFAIK...
Under AZ laws [ARS 4-229], it's a misdemeanor to carry in an establishment that sells alcohol for consumption and has a posted no firearms sign.
But, under those same AZ laws, it is an affirmative defense to say you did not see the sign and that you are a non-resident of AZ. (AZ LEOs will give you a verbal warning)
Last trip through, Roadkill Cafe did not have a sign on the door over on the west side of the building (main entrance).
As I walked back to the restroom, a sign was visible on the outside of the window of the eastern door by the kitchen.
__________________
- Rich

Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 09-29-2017, 11:29 PM
Cokebottle's Avatar
Cokebottle Cokebottle is offline
Guitar: The Deplorables
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Chino, CA
Posts: 29,085
iTrader: 14 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkMan View Post
Is there anything in Arizona at the moment to work on these sign laws?
Unlikely.

States that have liberal gun laws, are CC, or shall-issue, frequently have laws that are more restrictive than California when it comes to a business owner's right to determine who will be allowed on his property, or where you may or may not carry.

In New Mexico, you may not carry into an establishment that sells alcohol other than wine and low-point beer.
No Chili's, Applebee's, or Black Angus.
__________________
- Rich

Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 09-29-2017, 11:33 PM
Ron-Solo's Avatar
Ron-Solo Ron-Solo is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hangin in the AZ
Posts: 8,218
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Default

My son in law is a police officer in Arizona. He said a posted “No Firearms” sign has the force of law if you enter the premises armed. Someone else posted the ARS section previously.

He said it usually results in a warning, but it is arrestable. No further warning or a request to leave is required. The act of trespassing is committed when you enter when the premises is properly posted.

Don’t mess around in Arizona.
__________________
LASD Retired
1978-2011

NRA Life Member
CRPA Life Member
NRA Certified Instructor
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 09-30-2017, 10:19 AM
GlockN'Roll's Avatar
GlockN'Roll GlockN'Roll is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: SOUTHERN CAL
Posts: 2,377
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
My son in law is a police officer in Arizona. He said a posted “No Firearms” sign has the force of law if you enter the premises armed. Someone else posted the ARS section previously.

He said it usually results in a warning, but it is arrestable. No further warning or a request to leave is required. The act of trespassing is committed when you enter when the premises is properly posted.

Don’t mess around in Arizona.
The signage must meet the state's requirements to be valid...

https://www.azleg.gov/ars/4/00229.htm
__________________
Carry Daily, Safely, Discreetly
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 09-30-2017, 10:43 AM
fiddletown's Avatar
fiddletown fiddletown is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 4,320
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlockN'Roll View Post
The signage must meet the state's requirements to be valid...

https://www.azleg.gov/ars/4/00229.htm
Wrong!

That applies only to an establishment that sells alcoholic beverages by the drink.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 09-30-2017, 10:51 AM
71MUSTY's Avatar
71MUSTY 71MUSTY is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 5,477
iTrader: 15 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
My son in law is a police officer in Arizona. He said a posted “No Firearms” sign has the force of law if you enter the premises armed. Someone else posted the ARS section previously.

He said it usually results in a warning, but it is arrestable. No further warning or a request to leave is required. The act of trespassing is committed when you enter when the premises is properly posted.

Don’t mess around in Arizona.
IANAL Many free states I've visited are like this, because while you have your rights so do the property owners. Texas and Missouri are similar examples.
__________________
We stand for the Anthem, we kneel for the cross


We already have the only reasonable Gun Control we need, It's called the Second Amendment and it's the government it controls.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 09-30-2017, 11:04 AM
Cokebottle's Avatar
Cokebottle Cokebottle is offline
Guitar: The Deplorables
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Chino, CA
Posts: 29,085
iTrader: 14 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
IANAL Many free states I've visited are like this, because while you have your rights so do the property owners. Texas and Missouri are similar examples.
OTOH, my last trip to see my parents, I did not have to disarm once.
There was ONE gas station south of Ft. Worth that had a 30.07 sign (no open carry). I did not see any 30.06 signs.
We didn't spend much time in NM or OK.

Likewise, in AZ, we spent time in Flag, Phoenix, Tucson, Sedona, and Kingman. The only sign I saw was the one I mentioned above on the back door of the Roadkill Cafe.
__________________
- Rich

Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 09-30-2017, 11:31 AM
71MUSTY's Avatar
71MUSTY 71MUSTY is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 5,477
iTrader: 15 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
OTOH, my last trip to see my parents, I did not have to disarm once.
There was ONE gas station south of Ft. Worth that had a 30.07 sign (no open carry). I did not see any 30.06 signs.
We didn't spend much time in NM or OK.

Likewise, in AZ, we spent time in Flag, Phoenix, Tucson, Sedona, and Kingman. The only sign I saw was the one I mentioned above on the back door of the Roadkill Cafe.
Also true, while some property owners express their right by posting a sign many many others express their rights by not posting a sign.

I find signs are much more common in populated areas
__________________
We stand for the Anthem, we kneel for the cross


We already have the only reasonable Gun Control we need, It's called the Second Amendment and it's the government it controls.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 09-30-2017, 11:44 AM
GlockN'Roll's Avatar
GlockN'Roll GlockN'Roll is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: SOUTHERN CAL
Posts: 2,377
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
Wrong!

That applies only to an establishment that sells alcoholic beverages by the drink.


"A. A person may carry a concealed handgun on the premises of a licensee who is an on-sale retailer
unless the licensee posts a sign that clearly prohibits the possession of weapons on the licensed premises.
The sign shall conform to the following requirements:"
Yes, did I say otherwise?
__________________
Carry Daily, Safely, Discreetly
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 09-30-2017, 12:32 PM
fiddletown's Avatar
fiddletown fiddletown is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 4,320
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlockN'Roll View Post


"A. A person may carry a concealed handgun on the premises of a licensee who is an on-sale retailer
unless the licensee posts a sign that clearly prohibits the possession of weapons on the licensed premises.
The sign shall conform to the following requirements:"
Yes, did I say otherwise?
You’re still wrong. In the context of the statute “retailer” is only a seller of alcoholic drinks.

I’m out right now. I posted the applicable statutes in another thread and will re-post the backup for my comments when I get home later.

To clarify: except for a bar or restaurant there are no special requirements in order for a “no gun” sign to be effective.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper

Last edited by fiddletown; 09-30-2017 at 11:59 PM.. Reason: correct typo
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 09-30-2017, 8:24 PM
Cokebottle's Avatar
Cokebottle Cokebottle is offline
Guitar: The Deplorables
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Chino, CA
Posts: 29,085
iTrader: 14 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
I find signs are much more common in populated areas
That's why I was VERY surprised not to see any in Sedona.

Granted, it was 120 degrees and we didn't walk the whole town... just the shops next to the church below the hotel.
__________________
- Rich

Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 10-01-2017, 12:17 AM
fiddletown's Avatar
fiddletown fiddletown is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 4,320
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
...I’m out right now. I posted the applicable statutes in another thread and will re-post the backup for my comments when I get home later.

To clarify: except for a bar or restaurant there are no special requirements in order for a “no gun” sign to be effective.
I'm back.

Under Arizona law a bar or restaurant serving alcohol that wants to exclude guns must post a sign meeting certain statutory requirements. Any other type of business that wants to exclude guns need only provide reasonable notice that guns aren't allowed. Here's how we reach that conclusion:

The ARS 4-229 sign requirement applies only to premises which sell alcoholic beverages by the drink. Note that Title 4 of the Arizona Revised Statutes relates to the alcoholic beverages.

Note that in Title 4, including ARS 4-244 and ARS 4-229 the term "on-sale retailer" means (ARS 4-101, subparagraph 25):
Quote:
25. "On-sale retailer" means any person operating an establishment where spirituous liquors are sold in the original container for consumption on or off the premises or in individual portions for consumption on the premises.
And "licensed premises" means ((ARS 4-101, subparagraph 28):
Quote:
28. "Premises" or "licensed premises" means the area from which the licensee is authorized to sell, dispense or serve spirituous liquors under the provision of the license....
And under ARS 4-244 (emphasis added) --
Quote:
It is unlawful:
.....

29. For any person other than a peace officer or a member of a sheriff's volunteer posse while on duty who has received firearms training that is approved by the Arizona peace officer standards and training board, the licensee or an employee of the licensee acting with the permission of the licensee to be in possession of a firearm while on the licensed premises of an on-sale retailer. This paragraph shall not be construed to include a situation in which a person is on licensed premises for a limited time in order to seek emergency aid and such person does not buy, receive, consume or possess spirituous liquor. This paragraph shall not apply to:

(a) Hotel or motel guest room accommodations.

(b) The exhibition or display of a firearm in conjunction with a meeting, show, class or similar event.

(c) A person with a permit issued pursuant to section 13-3112 who carries a concealed handgun on the licensed premises of any on-sale retailer that has not posted a notice pursuant to section 4-229.

30. For a licensee or employee to knowingly permit a person in possession of a firearm other than a peace officer or a member of a sheriff's volunteer posse while on duty who has received firearms training that is approved by the Arizona peace officer standards and training board, the licensee or an employee of the licensee acting with the permission of the licensee to remain on the licensed premises or to serve, sell or furnish spirituous liquor to a person in possession of a firearm while on the licensed premises of an on-sale retailer. It shall be a defense to action under this paragraph if the licensee or employee requested assistance of a peace officer to remove such person. This paragraph shall not apply to:

(a) Hotel or motel guest room accommodations.

(b) The exhibition or display of a firearm in conjunction with a meeting, show, class or similar event.

(c) A person with a permit issued pursuant to section 13-3112 who carries a concealed handgun on the licensed premises of any on-sale retailer that has not posted a notice pursuant to section 4-229....
And see ARS 4-229:
Quote:
4-229. Licenses; handguns; posting of notice

A. A person may carry a concealed handgun on the premises of a licensee who is an on-sale retailer unless the licensee posts a sign that clearly prohibits the possession of weapons on the licensed premises. The sign shall conform to the following requirements:

1. Be posted in a conspicuous location accessible to the general public and immediately adjacent to the liquor license posted on the licensed premises.

2. Contain a pictogram that shows a firearm within a red circle and a diagonal red line across the firearm.

3. Contain the words, "no firearms allowed pursuant to A.R.S. section 4-229".

B. A person shall not carry a firearm on the licensed premises of an on-sale retailer if the licensee has posted the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section.

C. It is an affirmative defense to a violation of subsection B of this section if:

1. The person was not informed of the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section before the violation.

2. Any one or more of the following apply:

(a) At the time of the violation the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section had fallen down.

(b) At the time of the violation the person was not a resident of this state.

(c) The licensee had posted the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section not more than thirty days before the violation.

D. The department of liquor licenses and control shall prepare the signs required by this section and make them available at no cost to licensees.

E. The signs required by this section shall be composed of block, capital letters printed in black on white laminated paper at a minimum weight of one hundred ten pound index. The lettering and pictogram shall consume a space at least six inches by nine inches. The letters constituting the words "no firearms allowed" shall be at least three-fourths of a vertical inch and all other letters shall be at least one-half of a vertical inch. Nothing shall prohibit a licensee from posting additional signs at one or more locations on the premises.

F. This section does not prohibit a person who possesses a handgun from entering the licensed premises for a limited time for the specific purpose of either:

1. Seeking emergency aid.

2. Determining whether a sign has been posted pursuant to subsection A of this section.
However, in Arizona if the premises isn't a bar or restaurant serving alcoholic drink, the operative law is the Arizona criminal trespass statute, ARS 13-1502 (emphasis added):
Quote:
13-1502. Criminal trespass in the third degree; classification
A. A person commits criminal trespass in the third degree by:
1. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on any real property after a reasonable request to leave by the owner or any other person having lawful control over such property, or reasonable notice prohibiting entry.

2. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on the right-of-way for tracks, or the storage or switching yards or rolling stock of a railroad company.
B. Criminal trespass in the third degree is a class 3 misdemeanor.
Notice that it is criminal trespass in Arizona not only when one stays after being asked to leave. It is also criminal trespass to enter if one is on notice that entry is prohibited.

The question therefore becomes whether a "no guns" sign on private property is reasonable notice prohibiting entry by one carrying a gun. That will be up to the court, if you're unlucky.

Certainly on the face of things it looks like a "no gun" sign could well be considered reasonable notice that entry to the premises with a gun is prohibited.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper

Last edited by fiddletown; 10-01-2017 at 1:30 AM.. Reason: Correct typo
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 10-01-2017, 8:46 AM
SVT-40's Avatar
SVT-40 SVT-40 is online now
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Az
Posts: 8,227
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkMan View Post
Is there anything in Arizona at the moment to work on these sign laws? The only thing keeping it from being the perfect gun state is the signs having force of law. I'd love the law to be you have to be asked to leave, that way you could most likely at least conceal carry.
No... Because most in AZ believe it's up to each person or business owner to decide what happens inside their own property.

We don't want the "state" making those decisions.

You can carry anywhere you like, just don't expect that your "rights" will supersede the rights of another. Especially inside their business.

Their property their rules. Don't like it... Don't go in...

The state should not decide who's rights are more important than another's.
__________________
Poke'm with a stick!


Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
What you believe and what is true in real life in the real world aren't necessarily the same thing. And what you believe doesn't change what is true in real life in the real world.


Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 10-01-2017, 9:39 PM
R Dale R Dale is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 1,263
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVT-40 View Post
No... Because most in AZ believe it's up to each person or business owner to decide what happens inside their own property.

We don't want the "state" making those decisions.

You can carry anywhere you like, just don't expect that your "rights" will supersede the rights of another. Especially inside their business.

Their property their rules. Don't like it... Don't go in...

The state should not decide who's rights are more important than another's.
I think the state is wrong to allow signs that display no guns to have the force of law and make it a offense that you can be arrested for. I do think if you are asked to leave a place for a reason that was fairly disclosed before you entered and you refuse then it would be right to have LE remove you.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 10-02-2017, 2:28 AM
I Swan's Avatar
I Swan I Swan is online now
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,852
iTrader: 56 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVT-40 View Post
No... Because most in AZ believe it's up to each person or business owner to decide what happens inside their own property.

We don't want the "state" making those decisions.

You can carry anywhere you like, just don't expect that your "rights" will supersede the rights of another. Especially inside their business.

Their property their rules. Don't like it... Don't go in...

The state should not decide who's rights are more important than another's.
I agree up to a point. A business open to the public is not the same as someone's private home. A weird comparison but businesses open to general public are forced to serve Black people even if they don't want to so is that 100% different from them being allowed to not allow someone to carry?
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 10-02-2017, 9:30 AM
R Dale R Dale is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 1,263
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

I think anytime the gov allows a business to stop someone from doing something that is legal we are on a slippery slope towards more loss of rights. I can understand the occasional bar against some things such as you can't smoke in a restaurant or parts of the restaurant, but we don't wont people being arrested because they lit up in the no smoking section of a restaurant unless they refused to leave when asked.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 10-02-2017, 10:30 AM
SVT-40's Avatar
SVT-40 SVT-40 is online now
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Az
Posts: 8,227
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by R Dale View Post
I think the state is wrong to allow signs that display no guns to have the force of law and make it a offense that you can be arrested for. I do think if you are asked to leave a place for a reason that was fairly disclosed before you entered and you refuse then it would be right to have LE remove you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Dale View Post
I think anytime the gov allows a business to stop someone from doing something that is legal we are on a slippery slope towards more loss of rights. I can understand the occasional bar against some things such as you can't smoke in a restaurant or parts of the restaurant, but we don't wont people being arrested because they lit up in the no smoking section of a restaurant unless they refused to leave when asked.
So your "rights" are supreme to the rights of a property owner to control what happens inside their property?

You want the state to tell a property owner that your "rights" are supreme to his?

You have a choice. Don't go in if you see the signs.

The "state" allows individuals to control what happens inside their property.

A sign should be sufficient enough warning.

No property owner should have to ask you to leave because you choose to ignore the properly posted sign.

It's called responsibility for your actions. If you make the choice to ignore the signs, well you make the choice to accept the responsibility for having the police called and you possibly prosecuted.

It's all about personal responsibility.

You refuse to respect a persons rights to control what happens inside their property, and expect no consequences?
__________________
Poke'm with a stick!


Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
What you believe and what is true in real life in the real world aren't necessarily the same thing. And what you believe doesn't change what is true in real life in the real world.



Last edited by SVT-40; 10-02-2017 at 10:35 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 10-02-2017, 10:40 AM
SVT-40's Avatar
SVT-40 SVT-40 is online now
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Az
Posts: 8,227
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by I Swan View Post
I agree up to a point. A business open to the public is not the same as someone's private home. A weird comparison but businesses open to general public are forced to serve Black people even if they don't want to so is that 100% different from them being allowed to not allow someone to carry?
You have a choice as to carrying a gun. You can leave it in your car when you see the signs...

A black person cannot change their skin color.

Not even close.

A business is still not public property. It's private.

It's as simple as this...

See the signs, Don't go in.....
__________________
Poke'm with a stick!


Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
What you believe and what is true in real life in the real world aren't necessarily the same thing. And what you believe doesn't change what is true in real life in the real world.


Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 10-02-2017, 4:25 PM
I Swan's Avatar
I Swan I Swan is online now
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,852
iTrader: 56 / 100%
Default

Yes but if it is private property why should they be forced allow in Blacks or women or Martians if they don't want to? There are places that rightly wouldn't refuse the business and they can just go there. Just like I'm forced to go elsewhere yes I know I can disarm but still something to think about.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 10-02-2017, 6:01 PM
fiddletown's Avatar
fiddletown fiddletown is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 4,320
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by I Swan View Post
Yes but if it is private property why should they be forced allow in Blacks or women or Martians if they don't want to? There are places that rightly wouldn't refuse the business and they can just go there. Just like I'm forced to go elsewhere yes I know I can disarm but still something to think about.
And that is ultimately a political question.

Conflicting rights often rub against each other. When they do, it's been customary in our system for a legislative body to decide priorities and enact laws to ameliorate the rubbing.

Businesses open to the public are subject to numerous regulations and requirements limiting the business' freedom to use its property and conduct business as it chooses. These various requirements, regulations and rules to which a business open to the public is subject arose through the political process in which interested parties can participate; and they therefore reflect a considered determination by a legislative body or authorized administrative agency that as a matter of public policy the public interest served by the requirement, regulation or rule was sufficient to justify impairment of the property rights of the business.

Of course there's a conflict between the rights of an honest citizen to lawfully carry a gun and the right of a business to control its property and exclude people carrying a gun, if it so chooses. So far, to the extent that state legislatures have acted on the question, they have usually recognized the business' property rights and at least have provided some mechanism by which business can require that gun carriers leave on request or be charged with criminal trespass.

We live in a pluralistic, political society, and not everyone thinks as you do. People have varying beliefs, values, needs, wants and fears. People have differing views on the proper role government. So while you may be using the tools the Constitution, our laws and our system give you to promote your vision of how things should be, others may and will be using those same tools to promote their visions.

The Constitution, our laws, and our system give us resource and remedies. We can associate with others who think as we do and exercise what political power that association gives us to influence legislation. We have the opportunity to try to join with enough other people we can elect legislators and other public officials who we consider more attuned to our interests. And we can seek redress in court. And others who believe differently have the same opportunities.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 11-06-2017, 8:09 PM
BAJ475's Avatar
BAJ475 BAJ475 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Butte County, California
Posts: 1,506
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
... And others who believe differently have the same opportunities.
Which is both a blessing and a curse at the same time. It is a blessing when I am in the minority and my rights to protest are protected and a curse when those who disagree are in the majority and they ignore my protest and objections and do the wrong thing anyway.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 5:42 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2018, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.