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  #1  
Old 05-15-2019, 12:23 PM
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kemasa kemasa is offline
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Default At what point do you decide to not accept firearms from non-FFLs?

Ok, this is a bit of a rant, but at what point do you decide to no longer accept firearm shipments from non-FFLs?

My rule is that I don't give out my information until I get a copy of the ID of the person shipping the firearm to increase the chances of getting the information. This tends to make it harder for the person to ship a firearm to me without providing the ID to document where the firearm came from. But I just recently received a firearm without a copy of the ID in the box, in fact there was no paperwork in the box at all to show who the firearm was for or from. There was the return address on the box, which, as it turns out was accurate, but the firearm was a Frankenstein and due to this isn't on the certified list. One response was that all the parts were from certified handguns, so it should be considered to be certified even though it was from different firearms. I would hope that if it was shipped from a FFL, then they might notice this and flag it before it is shipped. It was from a CA resident.

Then there are those non-FFLs who demand a copy of my FFL, due in part to the stupid false information on the gunbroker web site. I talked to gunbroker about removing it, but thet refused saying that the BATF newsletter wasn't enough to convince them that their information was false and they demanded a personal letter from the BATF in order to remove it, which is never going to happen, so they keep providing false information.

When I send email to a non-FFL, I include the following:

Quote:
There is no requirement for FFLs to give a copy of their FFL to non-licensees,
please see the end of Page 2, beginning of Page 3:

http://www.atf.gov/files/publication...er-2008-11.pdf

In addition, the BATF tells FFLs to not give a copy of their FFL to
non-licensees.
This provides the information from a trusted source, not just my saying it, but it doesn't seem to always work.

The relevant section from the BATF newsletter:

Quote:
PROVIDING COPIES OF FEDERAL LICENSEES TO UNLICENSED PERSONS

A person not licensed under the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), and not
prohibited from acquiring firearms, may purchase a firearm from an
out-of-State source and obtain the firearm, in-state, if an arrangement is
made with a Federal firearms licensee in the purchaser’s State of residence.
A firearm may be transferred to the in-state licensee, who then completes the
transfer to the unlicensed person, also completing the ATF Form 4473 and
Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) national Instant Criminal Background
Check System (NICS) requirements.
Section 27 CFR 478.94 requires licensees to verify the identity and licensed
status prior to transferring a firearm to a person who states they are
licensed to receive it. “Verification shall be established by the
transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified copy of the transferee’s
license and by such other means as the transferor deems necessary…” This
section does not apply to transfers between a licensee and an unlicensed
person.
Yet this isn't enough to convince some people, which causes a waste of time trying to deal with them and educating them.

The referenced section:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.94

Quote:
478.94 Sales or deliveries between licensees.

A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer selling or
otherwise disposing of firearms, and a licensed collector selling or
otherwise disposing of curios or relics, to another licensee shall verify the
identity and licensed status of the transferee prior to making the
transaction. Verification shall be established by the transferee furnishing
to the transferor a certified copy of the transferee's license and by such
other means as the transferor deems necessary: Provided, That it shall not be
required (a) for a transferee who has furnished a certified copy of its
license to a transferor to again furnish such certified copy to that
transferor during the term of the transferee's current license, (b) for a
licensee to furnish a certified copy of its license to another licensee if a
firearm is being returned either directly or through another licensee to such
licensee and (c) for licensees of multilicensed business organizations to
furnish certified copies of their licenses to other licensed locations
operated by such organization: Provided further, That a multilicensed
business organization may furnish to a transferor, in lieu of a certified
copy of each license, a list, certified to be true, correct and complete,
containing the name, address, license number, and the date of license
expiration of each licensed location operated by such organization, and the
transferor may sell or otherwise dispose of firearms as provided by this
section to any licensee appearing on such list without requiring a certified
copy of a license therefrom. A transferor licensee who has the certified
information required by this section may sell or dispose of firearms to a
licensee for not more than 45 days following the expiration date of the
transferee's license.
I try to save people money by not forcing them to ship through a FFL, although for handguns it can be cheaper to do so, but it seems like it is taking more and more time to deal with shipments from non-FFLs. It bothers me to even consider making a change, but it is getting closer to the point where it would just be a lot easier and take a lot less time to deal with it. And people say that transfer fees are too high because it takes absolutely no time to do a transfer. Maybe charging an additional fee to accept a firearm from a non-FFL would be in order, but people would just complain about that and claim it was to just give money to other FFLs.
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Last edited by kemasa; 05-15-2019 at 12:36 PM..
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  #2  
Old 05-15-2019, 12:44 PM
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I have been successful using this for the past few years:
Quote:
Please make sure firearms are unloaded and any inserted magazine has no live rounds in it.

We do not provide copies of our FFL to non-licensed individuals as per the FFL Newsletter (http://ugimports.com/docs/FFL_Newsletter_Snippet.pdf) - see last section of page 2 and https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/...lspdf/download. The FFL EzCheck site (https://fflezcheck.atf.gov/fflezchec...&licsSeq=00560) will validate our FFL status.

A snippet of our license is provided here for reference: http://ugimports.com/docs/FFL-Snip-Private-Seller.png

Please ship to our Premises Address:
UG Imports, LLC
39275 State Street
Fremont, CA 94538

Also, to properly log in this firearm please include a copy of your Drivers License and a copy of our personal sales statement: http://www.ugimports.com/docs/UGI_Personal_Sale.pdf. The UGI Order Number for this transaction is: ####

If you are a FFL (01/07) holder please let us know the first 3 digits and last 5 digits of your license and we'll send you the correct documents.

If you have an C&R FFL please provide us a copy of that and we'll send you the correct documents if this is for a C&R firearm..

If you decide to ship through your local FFL please provide us their contact info. Another shipping option for individuals is http://shipmygun.com/. We should show up listed with that service.

Thanks,
--
Anthony Mendoza
t: (510) 371-4867(GUNS) / f: (510) 740-4443 / w: www.ugimports.com
Facebook: http://facebook.com/ugimports
Office Closure Schedule: http://ugimports.com/closed
I CC my customer on it when I send to shipper. If I don't receive what I need I tell my customer what I need and leave it on them to get the info. Additionally, I don't send out this until my customer tells me what they are transferring. If they say something like "Glock 19 from a private party" I ask them if it's in OEM configuration, etc.. that gives me the opportunity to weed out non-roster stuff or possible AWs. When they put in a transfer order with me I ask for auction details if it's from an auction so I have a chance to view that and catch possible no-gos as well.

This doesn't catch 100% of the issues but 99.5% of them so it makes it a non-issue for us. Sadly, I've had to add the first line as a reminder due to some recent issues from a dealer :|.
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  #3  
Old 05-15-2019, 12:56 PM
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Kemasa
I feel your pain. I think it all boils down to; can you make it worth your while to put up with what you put up with? If not, then why bother. Eliminate the frustration. An over simplification, perhaps, but there comes a point in time when one outweighs the other. Sounds like you may already know the answer.
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  #4  
Old 05-15-2019, 1:19 PM
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First of I'm going to start with that it can be a pain. But here's a rebuttal. At what point do you stop accepting firearms FROM FFLS?

I get about 33% of the firearms shipped to be that are either missing the CFLC (that was asked for when I sent my FFL to them) missing the invoice (again asked for up front), missing their FFL, (again asked for) or missing the customer name and contact info (again asked for)

So its not just a non-FFL shipping firearms issue. Its just people are dumb issue.
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  #5  
Old 05-15-2019, 1:32 PM
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Unfortunately, acespawnshop is correct.

In the past, it hasn't been as much of an issue, but a couple of problem cases at the same time can make one wonder.

There is really no legal solution to the actual problem. The other solution is to find a cave somewhere.
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Old 05-15-2019, 2:45 PM
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What's a real pain is when customers don't understand that the firearm that arrived 5 days ago cant be DROS'd because we are still waiting on the dealer they bought it from to provide us with the CFLC or whatever. No matter what we tell them they don't understand completely, to no fault of their own. Its a real pain. We've had to hold a firearm for a month because some dingbat FFL in South Carolina who maybe sells 2 firearms a year out of his garage didn't provide the CFLC and nobody could get ahold of him since he only checked his FFL email when he had active gunbroker auctions and since he didn't have anything never checked. We even google earthed his address and it was some dumpy place that looked like it was straight from Deliverance. Finally homeboy got around to checking his million emails and voicemails and MAILED us a CFLC.
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Email acesjewelryandloan@hotmail.com if you need us to do a transfer!
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Old 05-15-2019, 3:33 PM
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We have them scan and email their information prior to allowing them to send.

Along with any other information.
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Old 05-15-2019, 3:55 PM
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You never get virus's from their POS computers when they send attachments? We have. Also how do you manage all the incoming emails and such to correlate with what particular firearm it goes with?
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Email acesjewelryandloan@hotmail.com if you need us to do a transfer!
Or call 626-968-5900
Gun transfers 10am-5pm 7 days a week!
We are an NFA firearms dealer!

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Old 05-15-2019, 3:59 PM
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Another question for Tape: How do you handle the random phone calls where people (just happened) call and say "hey I ordered from XYZ FFL and I bought a firearm...yada yada yada. Do you still have them email you everything?
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Email acesjewelryandloan@hotmail.com if you need us to do a transfer!
Or call 626-968-5900
Gun transfers 10am-5pm 7 days a week!
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  #10  
Old 05-15-2019, 5:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
We have them scan and email their information prior to allowing them to send.
That is what I try to do, but if a customer knows you address, then they can give it to the seller and when the package shows up. it is a bit hard to tell them that they can't send what they already did.
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Old 05-15-2019, 5:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acespawnshop View Post
You never get virus's from their POS computers when they send attachments? We have. Also how do you manage all the incoming emails and such to correlate with what particular firearm it goes with?
Well, that is really your fault for using a bad so-called OS called Windoze. Linux is much more secure and faster.

When I send out an email, I put the buyer's name, firearm and order information (auction number or order number). It makes it much easier to match up with who it belongs to, as well as easier to search the subject for the email message.
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Old 05-15-2019, 5:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acespawnshop View Post
Another question for Tape: How do you handle the random phone calls where people (just happened) call and say "hey I ordered from XYZ FFL and I bought a firearm...yada yada yada. Do you still have them email you everything?
Yep. I say that if they want to be notified when it arrives, they need to send email so that I can reply to it. I don't call and leave messages due to a buyer not telling their spouse what they are doing and then it all coming out with a voice message left, causing everyone to be mad at everyone else.

If the orders all had their email address, it would be MUCH easier, but Bud's says that it is a privacy issue for some odd reason.
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Old 05-15-2019, 5:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acespawnshop View Post
What's a real pain is when customers don't understand that the firearm that arrived 5 days ago cant be DROS'd because we are still waiting on the dealer they bought it from to provide us with the CFLC or whatever. No matter what we tell them they don't understand completely, to no fault of their own. Its a real pain. We've had to hold a firearm for a month because some dingbat FFL in South Carolina who maybe sells 2 firearms a year out of his garage didn't provide the CFLC and nobody could get ahold of him since he only checked his FFL email when he had active gunbroker auctions and since he didn't have anything never checked. We even google earthed his address and it was some dumpy place that looked like it was straight from Deliverance. Finally homeboy got around to checking his million emails and voicemails and MAILED us a CFLC.
Yep, but remember what you said, so it really isn't unexpected, is it?
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Old 05-15-2019, 5:20 PM
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Oh, then there is the firearm that you can't transfer since it isn't on the certified list and the seller thinks that you can just directly send it back to them, no FFL required.

No concept of all the laws and requirements.
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Old 05-15-2019, 10:16 PM
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I'm not an FFL, but deal with shipping and cutomer returns. When dealing with non-FFLs shipping guns in, Make a check list or a form that the person needs to fillout that has everything you need (name, email, documents, etc.) and submit it to you. Once you have that, give that order a number, call it an ASN= Authorized Shipping Number or something. Have the non-ffl place that number on the shipment one all 6 sides of the box with a sharpie. Any boxes from non-ffls without ASN that show up, refuse them. Problem solved.
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Old 05-16-2019, 9:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acespawnshop View Post
Another question for Tape: How do you handle the random phone calls where people (just happened) call and say "hey I ordered from XYZ FFL and I bought a firearm...yada yada yada. Do you still have them email you everything?

If its from an FFL, we call/emalil the FFL and ask questions about the firearm and if they are familiar with the CFLC system.

We do a lot more proactive work prior to delivery to ensure our end will be covered at delivery in our stores. We don't take delivery from unlicensed people either.
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Old 05-16-2019, 9:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Yep. I say that if they want to be notified when it arrives, they need to send email so that I can reply to it. I don't call and leave messages due to a buyer not telling their spouse what they are doing and then it all coming out with a voice message left, causing everyone to be mad at everyone else.

If the orders all had their email address, it would be MUCH easier, but Bud's says that it is a privacy issue for some odd reason.
Buds can go to H E double hockey sticks. I don't and won't deal with them.

In 2016, on the 31st of December, I had to sit and wait for an emergency pick up by ups on a RAS 47 that would not be compliant on the 1st of January. The only reason they sent UPS was because i told them the gun was going to be surrendered to the PD if they didn't. They were notified on the 21st of December but never issued a call tag. There was no time to DROS it to get it delivered since the Deputy Sheriff who ordered it late was claiming he was going to get a 10 day waiver letter from the Sheriff but was DENIED.

Buds partially ruined my Christmas Eve since i'm the cook at home. Never again.
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Old 05-16-2019, 9:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-forceJunkie View Post
I'm not an FFL, but deal with shipping and cutomer returns. When dealing with non-FFLs shipping guns in, Make a check list or a form that the person needs to fillout that has everything you need (name, email, documents, etc.) and submit it to you. Once you have that, give that order a number, call it an ASN= Authorized Shipping Number or something. Have the non-ffl place that number on the shipment one all 6 sides of the box with a sharpie. Any boxes from non-ffls without ASN that show up, refuse them. Problem solved.
That assumes no other boxes coming in, as well, that you have time to look over all the incoming boxes. It isn't always easy to determine who exactly sent the box.
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Old 05-16-2019, 9:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
Buds can go to H E double hockey sticks. I don't and won't deal with them.

In 2016, on the 31st of December, I had to sit and wait for an emergency pick up by ups on a RAS 47 that would not be compliant on the 1st of January. The only reason they sent UPS was because i told them the gun was going to be surrendered to the PD if they didn't. They were notified on the 21st of December but never issued a call tag. There was no time to DROS it to get it delivered since the Deputy Sheriff who ordered it late was claiming he was going to get a 10 day waiver letter from the Sheriff but was DENIED.

Buds partially ruined my Christmas Eve since i'm the cook at home. Never again.
I get that, but they do provide a lot of business and people will go elsewhere.

I would have thought that they ruined your New Year's Eve based on the date, but ...

You should have just turned it over to the police and let them deal with it since they didn't do the right thing. I am sure that they wouldn't pay for your time.
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Old 05-16-2019, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
I get that, but they do provide a lot of business and people will go elsewhere.

I would have thought that they ruined your New Year's Eve based on the date, but ...

You should have just turned it over to the police and let them deal with it since they didn't do the right thing. I am sure that they wouldn't pay for your time.
Yes correction New Years. Our customer base knows we will order anything for them we don't do a large transfer business since we have a lot of inventory.

Last edited by taperxz; 05-16-2019 at 10:05 AM..
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Old 05-16-2019, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
If its from an FFL, we call/emalil the FFL and ask questions about the firearm and if they are familiar with the CFLC system.

We do a lot more proactive work prior to delivery to ensure our end will be covered at delivery in our stores. We don't take delivery from unlicensed people either.
So do we. We provide about 3 paragraphs in the email when we send our FFL telling everyone what we need and why and how to do it.

It still only happens 66% of the time.
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Interstate Transfers $25 plus $25 DROS and tax. ammo transfers $15 plus tax
Email acesjewelryandloan@hotmail.com if you need us to do a transfer!
Or call 626-968-5900
Gun transfers 10am-5pm 7 days a week!
We are an NFA firearms dealer!

Follow us on Facebook @acesjewelryandloan Need Cash Fast? Get a loan on your firearms here!
Tons of new handguns! New Aero Receivers in stock soon!
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Old 05-16-2019, 10:20 AM
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My thought was trying to implement some sort of “go to our website” thing where is it generates some sort of email to us telling us name phone address type of gun who it’s coming from etc. have the customer go there fill out the questions have the website email it to us and tell customers. We won’t call you until you fill this out sort of thing.

My biggest complaint currently is not gettting a damn invoice from the shipper. They don’t understand that a damn invoice shows an amount paid. We get what I would consider to be a packing slip in lieu of an invoice all the damn time. Palmetto state armory is the WORST.
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  #23  
Old 05-16-2019, 10:27 AM
kemasa's Avatar
kemasa kemasa is offline
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If people would read, it would make life easier, but they don't. They also don't care.

I have a transfer request form, but often people won't fill it out or they do strange things, such as instead of copy & paste, they create strange documents to sent it to me.

Ask for more than you need and hope you get something.

Quote:
Buyer

Name:
Address:
City:
Zip Code:
Phone number:
Email address:

Firearm

Did you check to make sure it is legal for a CA transfer? Yes/No
Type: Pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle
Make:
Model:
Caliber:
Serial number (if known):
Auction Site/Business bought from:
Auction Number/Invoice Number:

Seller (if not a FFL)

Name:
Address:
City:
Zip Code:
Phone number:
Email address:

FFL (if applicable)

Name:
Address:
City:
Zip Code:
Phone number:
Email address:
FFL number (if known):
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  #24  
Old 05-16-2019, 10:32 AM
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kemasa kemasa is offline
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As an example of people not reading, I recently sent in an item for repair (non-firearm) and marked on the box in red to save the box, marked on the letter in bold to save the box, but they didn't. It was a regional box, which is much cheaper and they don't have them.

They did order the boxes and are supposed to ship it back today, but I have to send them a PDF with the shipping label or else they charge me a lot more for shipping.

I am not sure of how to get them to save the box unless I were to have a super glue device to make it much harder to let go of the box, but then they would likely destroy the box. They just don't seem to care as it doesn't cost them anything.
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  #25  
Old 05-19-2019, 6:39 AM
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kendog4570 kendog4570 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Oh, then there is the firearm that you can't transfer since it isn't on the certified list and the seller thinks that you can just directly send it back to them, no FFL required.

No concept of all the laws and requirements.

If no transfer takes place, can it be returned to its owner, similar to a repair or service?
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  #26  
Old 05-19-2019, 8:50 AM
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kemasa kemasa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kendog4570 View Post
If no transfer takes place, can it be returned to its owner, similar to a repair or service?
No. There is an exception for gunsmith work, but not for transfers which don't take place. It can be transferred back, 4473 & DROS.
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