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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 10-23-2016, 11:50 PM
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Default Playing devil's advocate on the 10-day wait...

We may want to slow down and think about how the libtards will react if the 10-day waiting period is struck down. Right now it is of some value in helping mental health professionals arrange private arrangements with their clients to convince them to temporarily give up their guns without getting bureaucrats involved.

The 10-day wait can be used as a much less restrictive arrangement that a professional has a better chance of getting a client to agree to that and, it also has a benefit that it doesn't risk any stigma from a paper trail that can come back to bite them.

If we aren't careful, we risk making an opening for even less desirable laws to take the place of the 10-day waiting period.


http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/news/2...to-new-gun-law
...Fredrick Vars, a professor at the University of Alabama School of Law, said about 46 percent of the 200 people involved in the survey said they would be interested in voluntarily participating in the program. Vars presented the patients with two options: A voluntary sign-up and removal from the list with a seven-day waiting period, and an option that requires a judicial hearing for removal. The option without a judicial hearing won the most support...
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Old 10-24-2016, 3:33 AM
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Ummm... 10 day wait period would be struck down for folks that already have firearms, etc. Not for first-timers.
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  #3  
Old 10-24-2016, 3:58 AM
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Since I am no longer a California resident, I may not be allowed an opinion, but when I did liver there I felt like it w2as ridicules to make a person sit through a "Cooling off period" if they already have guns at home. I mean seriously. When has there ever been a person who got mad and wanted to kill someone, but said to themselves "I don't want to use one of these guns. I want a new one to kill this MF"?

There could be some merit to a wait for your first gun, but after that, I see no benefit.
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Old 10-24-2016, 4:46 AM
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The National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) is the U.S. system for determining if prospective firearms or explosives buyers' name and birth year match those of a person who is not eligible to buy.

It is instant, full faith and credit logically tells you that any waiting period is a local scheme to deter firearms sales. Just one of the many in this state.
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Old 10-24-2016, 4:59 AM
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Bought my first handgun, 9mm, waited 10 days.
10 day wait for my second, a single action 22.

What good did that do?

Think of all the children that are being exposed to the extra air pollution by my having to drive a second time to pick up.
Several of my buys were 100 miles away, so 200 extra miles.
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Old 10-24-2016, 5:17 AM
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The 10 day "cooling off" period is just to discourage law abiding gun owners or prospective law abiding gun owners from buying. It's just psychological warfare. If the state of California can stop just a few weak minded people from getting a gun, then they have won.
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Old 10-24-2016, 5:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthSean View Post
http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/news/2...to-new-gun-law
...Fredrick Vars, a professor at the University of Alabama School of Law, said about 46 percent of the 200 people involved in the survey said they would be interested in voluntarily participating in the program. Vars presented the patients with two options: A voluntary sign-up and removal from the list with a seven-day waiting period, and an option that requires a judicial hearing for removal. The option without a judicial hearing won the most support...
California, of course, brings the worst of both worlds where there's always a waiting period regardless of what the person or any doctors they may have want AND there's an involuntary surrender process that involves judicial hearings for removal.
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Old 10-24-2016, 6:06 AM
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If you have a CCW, you should be able to walk out with your gun purchase following a NICS check.

You've already undertaken a relatively in-depth background check and the libs contention that the 10 day wait is a "cooling off period" becomes null because by default, a CCW holder already owns a gun.
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Old 10-24-2016, 6:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthSean View Post
We may want to slow down and think about how the libtards will react if the 10-day waiting period is struck down. Right now it is of some value in helping mental health professionals arrange private arrangements with their clients to convince them to temporarily give up their guns without getting bureaucrats involved.

The 10-day wait can be used as a much less restrictive arrangement that a professional has a better chance of getting a client to agree to that and, it also has a benefit that it doesn't risk any stigma from a paper trail that can come back to bite them.

If we aren't careful, we risk making an opening for even less desirable laws to take the place of the 10-day waiting period.


http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/news/2...to-new-gun-law
...Fredrick Vars, a professor at the University of Alabama School of Law, said about 46 percent of the 200 people involved in the survey said they would be interested in voluntarily participating in the program. Vars presented the patients with two options: A voluntary sign-up and removal from the list with a seven-day waiting period, and an option that requires a judicial hearing for removal. The option without a judicial hearing won the most support...
um NO
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  #10  
Old 10-24-2016, 8:14 AM
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It would be replaced with a 14 day waiting list because it's how things are here.
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Old 10-24-2016, 8:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diveRN View Post
If you have a CCW, you should be able to walk out with your gun purchase following a NICS check.

You've already undertaken a relatively in-depth background check and the libs contention that the 10 day wait is a "cooling off period" becomes null because by default, a CCW holder already owns a gun.
I hold a security clearance for the Fed Govt. Should I wait 10day too?
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Old 10-24-2016, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilDawgJJ View Post
I hold a security clearance for the Fed Govt. Should I wait 10day too?
Do you have a card you can take to a gun vendor to show them your clearance? And just having a security clearance doesn't necessarily mean you own a gun. I know several folks with TS clearances who work in defense that don't own any guns... even here in Texas.
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Old 10-24-2016, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AregularGuy View Post
Ummm... 10 day wait period would be struck down for folks that already have firearms, etc. Not for first-timers.
^^This totally negates OP's point.
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  #14  
Old 10-24-2016, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthSean View Post
We may want to slow down and think about how the libtards will react if the 10-day waiting period is struck down. Right now it is of some value in helping mental health professionals arrange private arrangements with their clients to convince them to temporarily give up their guns without getting bureaucrats involved.

The 10-day wait can be used as a much less restrictive arrangement that a professional has a better chance of getting a client to agree to that and, it also has a benefit that it doesn't risk any stigma from a paper trail that can come back to bite them.

If we aren't careful, we risk making an opening for even less desirable laws to take the place of the 10-day waiting period.


http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/news/2...to-new-gun-law
...Fredrick Vars, a professor at the University of Alabama School of Law, said about 46 percent of the 200 people involved in the survey said they would be interested in voluntarily participating in the program. Vars presented the patients with two options: A voluntary sign-up and removal from the list with a seven-day waiting period, and an option that requires a judicial hearing for removal. The option without a judicial hearing won the most support...
You have me totally confused.

How exactly do you see it helping Mental Health Workers??

Mental Health Workers have no way of knowing if a client has attempted to purchase a handgun so I don't see how having a 10 day wait helps them one bit. What exactly do you see them getting their client to agree to?

Please explain.
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Old 10-24-2016, 11:22 AM
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Yeah the OP didn't make sense to me either...
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Old 10-24-2016, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthSean View Post
We may want to slow down and think about how the libtards will react if the 10-day waiting period is struck down. Right now it is of some value in helping mental health professionals arrange private arrangements with their clients to convince them to temporarily give up their guns without getting bureaucrats involved.

The 10-day wait can be used as a much less restrictive arrangement that a professional has a better chance of getting a client to agree to that and, it also has a benefit that it doesn't risk any stigma from a paper trail that can come back to bite them.

If we aren't careful, we risk making an opening for even less desirable laws to take the place of the 10-day waiting period.


http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/news/2...to-new-gun-law
...Fredrick Vars, a professor at the University of Alabama School of Law, said about 46 percent of the 200 people involved in the survey said they would be interested in voluntarily participating in the program. Vars presented the patients with two options: A voluntary sign-up and removal from the list with a seven-day waiting period, and an option that requires a judicial hearing for removal. The option without a judicial hearing won the most support...
It is of value now, how so & how do you know this? When a person buys a gun does the state notify the prospective buyer's mental health person? What if they don't have one? What if they do have one but already own guns? Getting another one puts them over the edge?

What "paper trail" comes back to bite them, that they tried to buy a gun and were denied? Who learns of that happening to a person?

BTW, the 10 day wait isn't replaced with "do nothing" - it's replaced with "do something quick" and not to hold onto the gun beyond what is required to complete a check. You're "devil's advocating" for making a person wait, after the check is done, for no reason.
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Old 10-24-2016, 11:30 AM
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There is no "devil's advocate" to be played. The 10 day wait has been proven to be a complete farce and has zero impact on "reducing crime".
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Old 10-24-2016, 12:02 PM
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I do not support waiting periods for firearm purchases, especially for those who already own one or more firearms. However, there is some evidence that firearm purchase waiting periods reduce suicide rates, both firearm related and overall suicide rates. There is no evidence it reduces homicide rates.

Quote:
The effects of policies aimed to restrict firearm ownership and usage is a heavily debated topic in modern social science research. While much of the debate has focused on right-to-carry laws, less research has focused on other policies which affect firearm ownership and use, in particular wait periods between the purchase and delivery of a firearm. In particular, the 1994 Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act effectively placed a mandatory five day wait period between the purchase and delivery of a firearm, [which expired in 1998] and many states place mandatory wait periods on firearm purchases as well. We exploit within-state variation across time in both the existence of a wait period and the wait period length to examine the effect of wait periods of firearm-related homicides and suicides. We find that the existence of a wait period reduces firearm related suicides by around 3 percent, with no evidence of a substitution towards non-firearm suicides. We do not find that wait periods are associated with changes in homicide rates.

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...de_and_Suicide
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Old 10-24-2016, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AregularGuy View Post
Ummm... 10 day wait period would be struck down for folks that already have firearms, etc. Not for first-timers.
This^

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bert Gamble View Post
Since I am no longer a California resident, I may not be allowed an opinion, but when I did liver there I felt like it w2as ridicules to make a person sit through a "Cooling off period" if they already have guns at home. I mean seriously. When has there ever been a person who got mad and wanted to kill someone, but said to themselves "I don't want to use one of these guns. I want a new one to kill this MF"?

There could be some merit to a wait for your first gun, but after that, I see no benefit.
^This

Quote:
Originally Posted by TKM View Post
The National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) is the U.S. system for determining if prospective firearms or explosives buyers' name and birth year match those of a person who is not eligible to buy.

It is instant, full faith and credit logically tells you that any waiting period is a local scheme to deter firearms sales. Just one of the many in this state.
Definitely this^

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garv View Post
Bought my first handgun, 9mm, waited 10 days.
10 day wait for my second, a single action 22.

What good did that do?

Think of all the children that are being exposed to the extra air pollution by my having to drive a second time to pick up.
Several of my buys were 100 miles away, so 200 extra miles.
And this^

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ford8N View Post
The 10 day "cooling off" period is just to discourage law abiding gun owners or prospective law abiding gun owners from buying. It's just psychological warfare. If the state of California can stop just a few weak minded people from getting a gun, then they have won.
And all of this^^

It's all about control . . . has nothing to do with reason or safety.
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Old 10-24-2016, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diveRN View Post
Do you have a card you can take to a gun vendor to show them your clearance? And just having a security clearance doesn't necessarily mean you own a gun. I know several folks with TS clearances who work in defense that don't own any guns... even here in Texas.
JPAS?
Even if I did, I don't know of any laws on the books (Fed or State) that would exempt any waiting period for a clearance.

My point was that a background check for a CCW is nothing compared to what transpires for a security clearance. Therefore, in my opinion: Clearance>CCW> = no waiting.
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Old 10-24-2016, 1:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilDawgJJ View Post
JPAS?
..Therefore, in my opinion: Clearance>CCW> = no waiting.
Ah, I misunderstood. We agree 100%.
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  #22  
Old 10-24-2016, 1:19 PM
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A NICS background check can be done in minutes. If you already own a gun, what's the point of a "cooling off" period for a subsequent gun purchase? What's next? A "cooling off" period for ammo purchases?
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Old 10-24-2016, 3:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Milsurp Collector View Post
I do not support waiting periods for firearm purchases, especially for those who already own one or more firearms. However, there is some evidence that firearm purchase waiting periods reduce suicide rates, both firearm related and overall suicide rates. There is no evidence it reduces homicide rates.
Quote:
The effects of policies aimed to restrict firearm ownership and usage is a heavily debated topic in modern social science research. While much of the debate has focused on right-to-carry laws, less research has focused on other policies which affect firearm ownership and use, in particular wait periods between the purchase and delivery of a firearm. In particular, the 1994 Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act effectively placed a mandatory five day wait period between the purchase and delivery of a firearm, [which expired in 1998] and many states place mandatory wait periods on firearm purchases as well. We exploit within-state variation across time in both the existence of a wait period and the wait period length to examine the effect of wait periods of firearm-related homicides and suicides. We find that the existence of a wait period reduces firearm related suicides by around 3 percent, with no evidence of a substitution towards non-firearm suicides. We do not find that wait periods are associated with changes in homicide rates.

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...de_and_Suicide
Interesting find, Milsurp Collector

Quote:
What we show here is that any delay policy associated with the purchase of a
handgun can help to mitigate some of the negative externalities of gun
ownership, specifically suicide.

Furthermore, our results suggest that there is
little, if any, additional benefit of a lengthy wait period.
Thus the costs of purchase delays to responsible individuals
could be minimized by not imposing excessively long delays.
Emphasis mine.

48hrs was the shortest delay they studied, and the observation that many
suicides are decided within hours, rather than days, would indicate
the delay could be reduced to 1 day or even less to interrupt suicidal impulses:


Quote:
Our shortest wait period was 48 hours, and the time between a decision to
commit suicide and an attempt is usually less than a day
(Peterson, Peterson, O'Shanick, & Swann, 1985). Indeed, one study found
that 70% of survivors of near-lethal suicide attempts deliberated less than
one hour (M. Miller et al., 2012).
The flip side of the argument to me is, how many people were harmed
because they couldn't adequately defend themselves during the various
waiting periods. Waiting 5 to 10 days can seem like an eternity when
you perceive a violent threat to yourself or family.

Also, this is a concern, listed in their references:

Shooting Down the More Guns, Less Crime Hypothesis
Full-text · Article · Dec 2002
Ian Ayres, John J. Donohue III


I agree with others that people like Donohue are biased Anti Gun "researchers"

If I remember correctly, I think it was David Kopel who did an excellent job
eviscerating Donohue's challenge to his court submission,
but I just cannot recall the case atm.

And for the record, I do not agree with waiting periods, either.


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  #24  
Old 10-24-2016, 3:58 PM
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Elliott Rodger underwent 3 background checks and waited 10 days for each of his firearms.

The argument that a wait of any duration will prevent a gun crime is without basis, irrespective of whether or not one is already a gun owner.

Next?
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Old 10-24-2016, 4:08 PM
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You can argue the California 10 day wait ad nauseam. The bottom line is this:
1) Stupid people elect ignorant politicians.
2) Ignorant politicians create senseless, illogical laws.
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Old 10-24-2016, 4:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ford8N View Post
The 10 day "cooling off" period is just to discourage law abiding gun owners or prospective law abiding gun owners from buying. It's just psychological warfare. If the state of California can stop just a few weak minded people from getting a gun, then they have won.
it's always been about burdening and increasing the cost of gun ownership that only the rich and connected can afford a firearm. so far in California its working.
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Old 10-24-2016, 5:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bert Gamble View Post
Since I am no longer a California resident, I may not be allowed an opinion, but when I did liver there I felt like it w2as ridicules to make a person sit through a "Cooling off period" if they already have guns at home. I mean seriously. When has there ever been a person who got mad and wanted to kill someone, but said to themselves "I don't want to use one of these guns. I want a new one to kill this MF"?

There could be some merit to a wait for your first gun, but after that, I see no benefit.
I tend to agree about the ten day wait, but IMO most gun laws have nothing to do with lowering crime or public safety but are just used as a harassment of the gun community.

Last edited by R Dale; 10-24-2016 at 9:55 PM..
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Old 10-24-2016, 7:04 PM
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Default How About

We get some LibTurd Commyfornia Anti2A legislators to pass a law the requires all criminals to submit to a voluntary 10 day "cooling off" period. Before they steal a law abiding citizens gun?

Sounds like another perfectly "REASONABLE COMMON SENSE COMPROMISE" to me.


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Old 10-24-2016, 9:02 PM
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I'm still waiting to learn what safety goal, whether public or private for that matter, is realized or even merely advanced by requiring a person who already possesses guns to wait to get another. The "we're OK with checks" support offered by some gunowners seems to be a by rote reaction, something we're supposed to say to appear reasonable.

With respect to suicide, a waiting period of any duration supposes that person will not, at a later time, reaffirm a decision to commit suicide. A proclivity toward suicide is a reason to not possess a gun, not to possess it after a certain wait.
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Old 10-24-2016, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by AregularGuy
Ummm... 10 day wait period would be struck down for folks that already have firearms, etc. Not for first-timers.
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Originally Posted by 71MUSTY
You have me totally confused.

How exactly do you see it helping Mental Health Workers??

Mental Health Workers have no way of knowing if a client has attempted to purchase a handgun so I don't see how having a 10 day wait helps them one bit. What exactly do you see them getting their client to agree to?

Please explain.
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Originally Posted by dfletcher
What "paper trail" comes back to bite them, that they tried to buy a gun and were denied? Who learns of that happening to a person?
I am talking about people that are already gun owners who are going through a mental health crisis. And what I am suggesting is that leaving the 10 day wait alone for the moment may reduce the need for mental health professionals to get the state involved if they can get their client to give someone their guns for safe keeping temporarily.

If the professional knows it would be hard for a client to run out and get another one in a hurry, it makes room for them both to consider other, less drastic measures to work out a treatment plan. It's a way to help someone keep control of their treatment to some degree, witch in turn helps motivate someone to follow through on their end of the deal. It's a way to make time for someone in crisis to stop and think without a psychiatrist or therapist having to get the police or DoJ involved.

It can't be done every time someone is in a bad place, but it would help many. It also helps leave an argument in court ready against any future mental health related gun laws meant to systematically disarm people. If there are already measures in the law in place (ie, the 10 day wait) to fill the intent of any new laws, but in a less restrictive manner than anything new that Sacramento will come up with, it will be easier to have any new laws overturned.

The less the government knows about a citizen's guns, the better. Mental health records or records of having guns confiscated sometime in the past over mental health issues in the past may not be a big deal at the moment, but we need to consider how those records could come back to haunt gun owners in the future. Even having any kind of registry is a liability to us all. Remember, gun control activists are never satisfied.

Eventually all the laws need to go, and for now it would probably be better to give priority to legal battles over the roster, standard cap mags, loaded carry, ammo permits, and the like, and then come back to the 10 day wait later.
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Old 10-25-2016, 5:01 AM
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I am talking about people that are already gun owners who are going through a mental health crisis. And what I am suggesting is that leaving the 10 day wait alone for the moment may reduce the need for mental health professionals to get the state involved if they can get their client to give someone their guns for safe keeping temporarily.

If the professional knows it would be hard for a client to run out and get another one in a hurry, it makes room for them both to consider other, less drastic measures to work out a treatment plan. It's a way to help someone keep control of their treatment to some degree, witch in turn helps motivate someone to follow through on their end of the deal. It's a way to make time for someone in crisis to stop and think without a psychiatrist or therapist having to get the police or DoJ involved.
Here is the problem with your plan. If I am in a crisis and intent on committing suicide, I just hand over my guns so I will not be reported like you have outlined. Then I drive to a remote river and tie diving weights around me and my neck and jump in so I drown. I good friend of mine did that. This was his ninth suicide attempt and he was finally successful.

Or, I voluntarily give up my guns and go buy a black power pistol. They do not require a 10-day wait or background check. I go home and use it to shoot myself in the head. They make more of a mess than modern firearms and are over 99% lethal, more lethal than all other guns combined used for suicides. My mom worked as an ER nurse and saw a few of these. My FIL was a firefighter/paramedic and saw a few of these.

A mental health worker does as you suggest and does not make the report. Their patient then goes and buys a black market gun and uses it to commit suicide. The family finds out and then sues the mental health worker because the law requires he files a report if he has any reason to suspect the patient is suicidal. He could even lose his license to practice.

The mental health professional is a mandated reporter and if he or she wants to keep their license, they will report.
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Old 10-25-2016, 6:30 AM
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Here is the problem with your plan. If I am in a crisis and intent on committing suicide, I just hand over my guns so I will not be reported like you have outlined. Then I drive to a remote river and tie diving weights around me and my neck and jump in so I drown. I good friend of mine did that. This was his ninth suicide attempt and he was finally successful.

Or, I voluntarily give up my guns and go buy a black power pistol. They do not require a 10-day wait or background check. I go home and use it to shoot myself in the head. They make more of a mess than modern firearms and are over 99% lethal, more lethal than all other guns combined used for suicides. My mom worked as an ER nurse and saw a few of these. My FIL was a firefighter/paramedic and saw a few of these.

A mental health worker does as you suggest and does not make the report. Their patient then goes and buys a black market gun and uses it to commit suicide. The family finds out and then sues the mental health worker because the law requires he files a report if he has any reason to suspect the patient is suicidal. He could even lose his license to practice.

The mental health professional is a mandated reporter and if he or she wants to keep their license, they will report.
Agreed. Beyond that, one is either a danger to themselves or others or they are not. The mental health professionals are the people who are trained and authorized to make that determination. Granted while they do not have a crystal ball to foretell the future if they cannot or will not make that determination, they need to seek another line of work where equivocation doesn't matter.
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Old 10-25-2016, 8:03 AM
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Originally Posted by jeremiah12 View Post
Here is the problem with your plan. If I am in a crisis and intent on committing suicide, I just hand over my guns so I will not be reported like you have outlined. Then I drive to a remote river and tie diving weights around me and my neck and jump in so I drown. I good friend of mine did that. This was his ninth suicide attempt and he was finally successful.

Or, I voluntarily give up my guns and go buy a black power pistol. They do not require a 10-day wait or background check. I go home and use it to shoot myself in the head. They make more of a mess than modern firearms and are over 99% lethal, more lethal than all other guns combined used for suicides. My mom worked as an ER nurse and saw a few of these. My FIL was a firefighter/paramedic and saw a few of these.

A mental health worker does as you suggest and does not make the report. Their patient then goes and buys a black market gun and uses it to commit suicide. The family finds out and then sues the mental health worker because the law requires he files a report if he has any reason to suspect the patient is suicidal. He could even lose his license to practice.

The mental health professional is a mandated reporter and if he or she wants to keep their license, they will report.
While I don't agree with Sean or the wait, and consider a 10 day wait not particularly useful preventing suicide by gun, we should consider that doing it by gun pretty much eliminates having to try a 2nd or 9th time. And consider what jumping off a bridge entails as compared to using a gun.

A gun is efficient, quick and private. Launching one's self off the Golden Gate Bridge - you have to get dressed, travel there, might be a nice day out, perhaps a friend is seen on the way. The deed must be done in front of passers by. One of the reasons for not putting up a barricade on the bridge, believe it or not, was the supposition that those inclined to jump but didn't carry through would find easier ways to carry out the act - an apartment building for example.

Regarding swapping out a blackpowder pistol for a conventional one - heck, try finding blackpowder around here. You'll die of old age first.

Unfortunately preventing a suicide is like preventing private, momentary behavior accomplished in the blink of an eye. Everything has to line up perfectly and the person doing the deed must cooperate - forever.
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Old 10-25-2016, 11:14 PM
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OP's choice of argument is narrow and ignorant. What of all the law-abiding people that already lawfully own firearms? WHy should they be subjected to this nonsense waiting period? States with cash and carry or Instant Check are not suffering any increase in 'crimes of passion', the prima facie argument for the 10 day period. It is nothing more than a deliberate encumberance by the State.
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Old 10-26-2016, 7:19 AM
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What's with all of the anti's coming out of the woodwork recently. I mean, they've clearly WON and more or less destroyed the 2nd AMENDMENT, so shouldn't they be out in the streets dancing and celebrating and all that? Why are they wasting time heckling us in our own forums? Don't they have anything better to do?
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Old 10-26-2016, 7:42 AM
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Originally Posted by DarthSean View Post
I am talking about people that are already gun owners who are going through a mental health crisis. And what I am suggesting is that leaving the 10 day wait alone for the moment may reduce the need for mental health professionals to get the state involved if they can get their client to give someone their guns for safe keeping temporarily.

If the professional knows it would be hard for a client to run out and get another one in a hurry, it makes room for them both to consider other, less drastic measures to work out a treatment plan. It's a way to help someone keep control of their treatment to some degree, witch in turn helps motivate someone to follow through on their end of the deal. It's a way to make time for someone in crisis to stop and think without a psychiatrist or therapist having to get the police or DoJ involved.

It can't be done every time someone is in a bad place, but it would help many. It also helps leave an argument in court ready against any future mental health related gun laws meant to systematically disarm people. If there are already measures in the law in place (ie, the 10 day wait) to fill the intent of any new laws, but in a less restrictive manner than anything new that Sacramento will come up with, it will be easier to have any new laws overturned.

The less the government knows about a citizen's guns, the better. Mental health records or records of having guns confiscated sometime in the past over mental health issues in the past may not be a big deal at the moment, but we need to consider how those records could come back to haunt gun owners in the future. Even having any kind of registry is a liability to us all. Remember, gun control activists are never satisfied.

Eventually all the laws need to go, and for now it would probably be better to give priority to legal battles over the roster, standard cap mags, loaded carry, ammo permits, and the like, and then come back to the 10 day wait later.
So the basic idea is that Everyone should be punished because there is a minute chance a person in crisis might voluntarily tell the MH Professional he owns a firearm and be talked into placing it into safekeeping thus allowing the MH Professional to ignore the law and not report him.

I See.
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Old 10-26-2016, 7:56 AM
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What's with all of the anti's coming out of the woodwork recently. I mean, they've clearly WON and more or less destroyed the 2nd AMENDMENT, so shouldn't they be out in the streets dancing and celebrating and all that? Why are they wasting time heckling us in our own forums? Don't they have anything better to do?
Deep down inside, they know that they will never really win. While many vocal gun owners do give up and run away, there is a strong core of gun owners in California who will never quit, no matter what. The smart Antis understand this, so the dance continues.
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Old 10-26-2016, 7:56 AM
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Originally Posted by dfletcher View Post
While I don't agree with Sean or the wait, and consider a 10 day wait not particularly useful preventing suicide by gun, we should consider that doing it by gun pretty much eliminates having to try a 2nd or 9th time. And consider what jumping off a bridge entails as compared to using a gun.

A gun is efficient, quick and private. Launching one's self off the Golden Gate Bridge - you have to get dressed, travel there, might be a nice day out, perhaps a friend is seen on the way. The deed must be done in front of passers by. One of the reasons for not putting up a barricade on the bridge, believe it or not, was the supposition that those inclined to jump but didn't carry through would find easier ways to carry out the act - an apartment building for example.

Regarding swapping out a blackpowder pistol for a conventional one - heck, try finding blackpowder around here. You'll die of old age first.

Unfortunately preventing a suicide is like preventing private, momentary behavior accomplished in the blink of an eye. Everything has to line up perfectly and the person doing the deed must cooperate - forever.
Yeah, just look a suicide rates for men in Japan and South Korea (which have very strict gun laws). Much higher than here in the USA (and I choose men because men are much more likely to choose a firearm to commit suicide than women). In Japan and South Korea men just step in front of a train. It affects much more than them using that method. First the poor engineer who has to watch helplessly as he turns another human into a red mist. All the people on the train who now have to wait for hours until the investigation is complete. The other trains delayed because of one person.

We have almost the exact suicide rate for men as in France and France has much stricter gun laws than us. Compare New Zealand (more lax gun laws) to Australia (strict gun laws) and NZ's rate of suicide is lower. Our suicide rates are lower than Belgium and Iceland and significantly lower than Japan, Poland (very low gun ownership) Russia and South Korea.

If people are committed to putting an end to themselves they will find a way even if they have no access to a firearm.
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