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  #241  
Old 04-13-2018, 7:52 PM
Psychbiker Psychbiker is offline
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Any of these fixed mag devices lock the bolt back on last round? If not I’ll probably just go featureless.
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  #242  
Old 04-13-2018, 8:07 PM
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Any of these fixed mag devices lock the bolt back on last round? If not I’ll probably just go featureless.
Don't quite follow. Why would the device lock the BCG back on the last round? Isn't that the function of the mag follower?
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  #243  
Old 04-13-2018, 8:13 PM
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Don't quite follow. Why would the device lock the BCG back on the last round? Isn't that the function of the mag follower?
Some of the devices cause the bolt catch to stop catching the bolt.

I'm not sure which ones do and which ones don't though. Pretty sure at least some of them have a last shot bolt hold open. Certainly the Patriot mag locks and such do. But I think some others that involve a modified bolt catch don't.
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  #244  
Old 04-13-2018, 8:17 PM
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Thanks, learned some more stuff.
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  #245  
Old 04-13-2018, 8:23 PM
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Thanks, learned some more stuff.
search some of my posts specifically on the Hyperswitch vs Kingpin thread
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  #246  
Old 04-13-2018, 8:25 PM
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Thanks, will do.
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  #247  
Old 04-13-2018, 8:53 PM
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regardless I think I posted in a previous exchange with you that "because Cokebottle or Protohyp said so" is not a defense in court.

i suggest each and everyone of you guys read the regulations over to at least be able to speak with conviction what you believe those regulations to mean.
Exactly.

I have no interest in being a test case, and won't encourage anyone to be one either.
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A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #248  
Old 04-13-2018, 9:01 PM
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Originally Posted by protohyp View Post
search some of my posts specifically on the Hyperswitch vs Kingpin thread
I watched the videos. Was the Kingpin actually opening the receiver halves? It was hard to tell.

Very interesting devices to say the least.
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  #249  
Old 04-13-2018, 9:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Psychbiker View Post
Any of these fixed mag devices lock the bolt back on last round? If not I’ll probably just go featureless.
The Hellfighter it's just a awesome rear takedown pin that cracks the action just enough to be in compliance and let's you keep all the features. Or you can do/get this

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  #250  
Old 04-13-2018, 9:26 PM
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I watched the videos. Was the Kingpin actually opening the receiver halves? It was hard to tell.

Very interesting devices to say the least.
yes it is
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  #251  
Old 04-13-2018, 9:53 PM
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  #252  
Old 04-14-2018, 7:23 PM
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Protohyp clued me in on the latest version, which appears to not require removal of the mag lock to drop the mag in a double feed situation, and that's awesome. Seems like the best option out there. I'll almost definitely buy one.
Any pubic video here Protohyp?
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  #253  
Old 04-14-2018, 8:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
I'm good with the ARMaglock if the hex head is drilled so that it can not be loosened without destroying it.

If the hex head is not drilled, and the screw can be loosened using a hex key, in a manner that allows the magazine to be detached without separating the upper, then it is not compliant simply because the magazine can be detached without partial disassembly of the action.
The regs further state that a receiver with NO magazine release does not constitute a fixed magazine.

If you can get the magazine out without breaking the upper open (and without damaging the magazine release), it's not compliant plain and simple. I honestly don't understand how you can see that as being any different than a bullet button.
I disagree.

You have heard about removing stripped (will work equally well for drilled) socket hex head screws with a hammered in Torx bit or an EZ Out right? Tools change everything and can not be read into the law.

A compliant rifle can be turned into a non-compliant rifle in dozens of ways with many different tools. That was the case with prior bullet button compliance devices and is also true now under SB880. There is absolutely nothing in the laws/regs that describe the permanence or removal of the magazine release device (as already pointed out). Also they law does not say a rifle is non-compliant if it "sort of compliant" (say compliant without tools) but can be reconfigured (with tools) to be placed into a non-compliant state (i.e. ARMaglock without drilled bolt head).

Also, take the case of fixed magazine solutions, particularly the DFM. One could precisely drill holes into their lower, use a drill or punch to remove or bend the "limiting tabs" on the body of the DFM magazine and remove it, WITHOUT separating the action. It seems by your logic a DFM is not a compliant, fixed magazine solution. This is absolutely no different than a ARMaglock with out a drilled head. No, no, don't go there... One could also even rebend the limiting tabs and revert the DFM back to a working compliant condition.

Like has been said, each person has to decide risks vs. safety and I am also completely fine putting my rifle into a non-compliant state, briefly, to safely clear a malfunction. Others may not be.

Last edited by swamp2; 04-14-2018 at 8:18 PM..
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  #254  
Old 04-14-2018, 8:54 PM
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Any pubic video here Protohyp?


It’s over on the other thread. I believe you’ve seen it


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  #255  
Old 04-14-2018, 9:35 PM
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to safely clear a malfunction. Others may not be.
Ditch the blocked 10/20 and 10/30 bodies and use a magazine where the floorplate can be removed.
Absolutely no question as to compliance, and the malfunction can be safely cleared.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #256  
Old 04-15-2018, 12:37 PM
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Ditch the blocked 10/20 and 10/30 bodies and use a magazine where the floorplate can be removed.
Absolutely no question as to compliance, and the malfunction can be safely cleared.
Well that was not much of a discussion nor debate. In my evaluation a ARMaglock without a drilled bolt is also no question as to compliance.
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  #257  
Old 04-15-2018, 2:18 PM
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  #258  
Old 04-15-2018, 4:44 PM
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Well that was not much of a discussion nor debate. In my evaluation a ARMaglock without a drilled bolt is also no question as to compliance.
Not installed in full compliance with the manufacturer's directions: Check
Able to detach the magazine without disassembly of the action: Check

Seems pretty clear and even the manufacturer recognizes there is a compliance issue if not drilled.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #259  
Old 04-15-2018, 6:44 PM
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Default List of Magazine Release Type Compliance Devices (and take down pins) - MAJOR UPDATE

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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Not installed in full compliance with the manufacturer's directions: Check

Able to detach the magazine without disassembly of the action: Check



Seems pretty clear and even the manufacturer recognizes there is a compliance issue if not drilled.


Here is the way I see it.



I have about 200 police officers up and down the state for lack of a better term "endorsing" my system with the AR Maglock. If they use it they'll recognize it if they encounter it on the street. The more LEO using these devices on their personal rifles the better off it is for ALL of us.



Everyone assumes that a cop will arrest you for illegal configurations but they're just like us when it comes to their personal rifles and the more we endorse them using ANY of these products the more it will benefit us as a shooting community.

Last edited by protohyp; 04-15-2018 at 6:58 PM..
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  #260  
Old 04-15-2018, 7:06 PM
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Originally Posted by protohyp View Post
I have about 200 police officers up and down the state for lack of a better term "endorsing" my system with the AR Maglock. If they use it they'll recognize it if they encounter it on the street. The more LEO using these devices on their personal rifles the better off it is for ALL of us.

Everyone assumes that a cop will arrest you for illegal configurations but they're just like us when it comes to their personal rifles and the more we endorse them using ANY of these products the more it will benefit us as a shooting community.
I don't disagree with you, but are these systems installed following the manufacturer's directions (drilling out the hex) or are they omitting the step?

The device itself, as described in the installation instructions posted above, is without question compliant.

I'm just saying that there are other ways to safely clear a jam than to risk creating a non-compliant configuration. Floorplates are not that difficult to remove on most 10rd magazines.

I like my 10/30 mag bodies as much as anyone. I use the Ranger floorplates and use them as a kind of monopod to brace the rifle when shooting prone or bench.
I won't use them in conjunction with the FC Hook because of the difficulty in clearing a jam.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #261  
Old 04-15-2018, 7:16 PM
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Default List of Magazine Release Type Compliance Devices (and take down pins) - MAJOR UPDATE

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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
I don't disagree with you, but are these systems installed following the manufacturer's directions (drilling out the hex) or are they omitting the step?

The device itself, as described in the installation instructions posted above, is without question compliant.

I'm just saying that there are other ways to safely clear a jam than to risk creating a non-compliant configuration. Floorplates are not that difficult to remove on most 10rd magazines.

I like my 10/30 mag bodies as much as anyone. I use the Ranger floorplates and use them as a kind of monopod to brace the rifle when shooting prone or bench.
I won't use them in conjunction with the FC Hook because of the difficulty in clearing a jam.


So you haven’t seen my latest system coupled with the AR Maglock?

With the new system and arm you can drill out the hex screw and still clear double feeds


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Last edited by protohyp; 04-15-2018 at 7:21 PM..
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  #262  
Old 04-15-2018, 7:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Not installed in full compliance with the manufacturer's directions: Check
Able to detach the magazine without disassembly of the action: Check

Seems pretty clear and even the manufacturer recognizes there is a compliance issue if not drilled.
Manufacturers instructions have little to no bearing on compliance. Check

Fixed magazine solutions and bullet buttons could also be made non-compliant with tools. Check.
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  #263  
Old 04-15-2018, 7:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
The device itself, as described in the installation instructions posted above, is without question compliant.
And then the system is just as easily "defeatable" with an EZ Out or oversize Torx bit. Drilling the heads only substitutes one tool for another. It is meaningless.
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  #264  
Old 04-15-2018, 7:33 PM
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And then the system is just as easily "defeatable" with an EZ Out or oversize Torx bit. Drilling the heads only substitutes one tool for another. It is meaningless.
Possibly, but who knows. There's a line drawn somewhere, but nobody knows where. Something can always become something else, with a little elbow grease, the question is whether or not a court would agree with someone's assessment about how difficult it is to do it. I could make my rifle an SBR with not much work, and with a little more work I could make it full-auto... But most courts would probably reason that unless you actually did saw the barrel off, or fiddle with the trigger mechanism, or hammer a torx bit into your mag release, it probably shouldn't be considered the prohibited item in question. On the other hand, if your mag release could be taken off with a simple Allen key, it might be a lot more difficult to claim that it's never meant to be removable.

It's all a gray area, and everyone has different comfort levels. Myself, I'm steering well clear of anything that has disputable legality.
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  #265  
Old 04-15-2018, 8:28 PM
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Possibly, but who knows. There's a line drawn somewhere, but nobody knows where. Something can always become something else, with a little elbow grease, the question is whether or not a court would agree with someone's assessment about how difficult it is to do it. I could make my rifle an SBR with not much work, and with a little more work I could make it full-auto... But most courts would probably reason that unless you actually did saw the barrel off, or fiddle with the trigger mechanism, or hammer a torx bit into your mag release, it probably shouldn't be considered the prohibited item in question. On the other hand, if your mag release could be taken off with a simple Allen key, it might be a lot more difficult to claim that it's never meant to be removable.

It's all a gray area, and everyone has different comfort levels. Myself, I'm steering well clear of anything that has disputable legality.
Your tone here is a bit softer than what seemed like a claim that a non drilled screw head on an ARMaglock is clearly non-compliant.

When the DOJ will not bless particulars, we are indeed all left with some gray area no matter how solid one compliance solution may appear. Just realize that the same basic arguments you use against a non-drilled screw head can be made for a drilled one or for just about any other compliance system. Also, again, there is absolutely ZERO legislation nor rules on how permanent the magazine release component of a fixed magazine rifle must be. Permanence is just not on the table... I'd be willing to bet that we never see an arrest nor prosecution for someone running an ARMaglock without a drilled head.
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  #266  
Old 04-15-2018, 8:36 PM
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Your tone here is a bit softer than what seemed like a claim that a non drilled screw head on an ARMaglock is clearly non-compliant.

When the DOJ will not bless particulars, we are indeed all left with some gray area no matter how solid one compliance solution may appear. Just realize that the same basic arguments you use against a non-drilled screw head can be made for a drilled one or for just about any other compliance system. Also, again, there is absolutely ZERO legislation nor rules on how permanent the magazine release component of a fixed magazine rifle must be. Permanence is just not on the table... I'd be willing to bet that we never see an arrest nor prosecution for someone running an ARMaglock without a drilled head.
Again, you may be right, but like CokeBottle said, this forum isn't for advocating "what we can probably get away with", it's for helping people stay compliant. One of these days someone is going to get busted for crossing the fuzzy line just a little too far and they're going to point their finger at this website and say "but most people said it would probably be ok!" There are a lot of people who take what they read here as gospel, so it's our responsibility to make sure people make informed decisions and know all the risks. You, and I, and most people who've posted here may know more or less what we're doing, but many lurkers do not. So the "eh it'll probably be fine" mentality is perhaps not the best way to teach people how to stay out of trouble.
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  #267  
Old 04-15-2018, 8:58 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
Again, you may be right, but like CokeBottle said, this forum isn't for advocating "what we can probably get away with", it's for helping people stay compliant. One of these days someone is going to get busted for crossing the fuzzy line just a little too far and they're going to point their finger at this website and say "but most people said it would probably be ok!" There are a lot of people who take what they read here as gospel, so it's our responsibility to make sure people make informed decisions and know all the risks. You, and I, and most people who've posted here may know more or less what we're doing, but many lurkers do not. So the "eh it'll probably be fine" mentality is perhaps not the best way to teach people how to stay out of trouble.
You really think that a lawyer will point to this website and say "well my client believed he was compliant because a forum told him so?"

As i pointed out in an exchange with Cokebottle that "because we said so" is not a defense.

Again my position is because i have a bunch of law enforcement using the systems out there they're our first line of defense because they're using the exact same system we are all using. The more LEO are informed the more chance we have that a DA will NEVER see anything that this forum may put out there as questionably compliant.

Last edited by protohyp; 04-15-2018 at 9:00 PM..
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  #268  
Old 04-15-2018, 10:12 PM
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You really think that a lawyer will point to this website and say "well my client believed he was compliant because a forum told him so?"

As i pointed out in an exchange with Cokebottle that "because we said so" is not a defense.

Again my position is because i have a bunch of law enforcement using the systems out there they're our first line of defense because they're using the exact same system we are all using. The more LEO are informed the more chance we have that a DA will NEVER see anything that this forum may put out there as questionably compliant.
I really don't understand what you're arguing. If you do not feel it is compliant, then do not put it on your rifles. We're all adults and are wise enough to make our own decisions based the on laws, we don't need you or your opinions.
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  #269  
Old 04-15-2018, 10:21 PM
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We're all adults and are wise enough to make our own decisions based the on laws,
A whole bunch of people here are not.
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  #270  
Old 04-16-2018, 12:12 PM
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We're all adults and are wise enough to make our own decisions based the on laws, we don't need you or your opinions.
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A whole bunch of people here are not.
I have to agree.
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  #271  
Old 04-16-2018, 3:25 PM
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Again, you may be right, but like CokeBottle said, this forum isn't for advocating "what we can probably get away with", it's for helping people stay compliant.
Man, you should see the bolt blocker thread. "What we can possibly get away with" is exactly what that thread devolved into.

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Old 04-16-2018, 7:24 PM
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Again, you may be right, but like CokeBottle said, this forum isn't for advocating "what we can probably get away with", it's for helping people stay compliant.
This should be an avenue of any full compliance discussion. But I still disagree that the sole or primary focus of the forum should be as you state. There is nothing wrong with exploring and advocating limits, all at one's own, obviously, its the interwebs...

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...so it's our responsibility to make sure people make informed decisions and know all the risks.
That's almost opposite of the last point you made just above...
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  #273  
Old 04-17-2018, 7:40 AM
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It's fine to present all the options, I frequently tell people "your options are X, Y, Z, or roll the dice by doing something that is a legal gray area, or just ignoring the law, but here are the risks". The problem is when people leave out the "here are the risks" part.
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  #274  
Old 04-17-2018, 7:46 AM
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Or actively suggest that there are no risks..... And aggressively fight the idea that there are risks...
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  #275  
Old 04-22-2018, 2:40 PM
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I'm working on this:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...4#post21555364
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  #276  
Old 04-28-2018, 5:07 PM
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I got my KingPin and ARMaglock Gen 2 installed and it is fantastic.

So much faster and easier to do mag changes than with a bullet button. Not happy that laws are driving a change to my property with non-trivial cost implications, but in this case these new rounds of innovation and ingenuity actually functionally benefit us! Congrats to the Kingpin of KingPin - user Protohyp. True ingenuity!

Seems like for a bit Kingpin is only available though the partnership with ARMaglock. Head to their website if interested.
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  #277  
Old 05-21-2018, 9:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I got my KingPin and ARMaglock Gen 2 installed and it is fantastic.

So much faster and easier to do mag changes than with a bullet button. Not happy that laws are driving a change to my property with non-trivial cost implications, but in this case these new rounds of innovation and ingenuity actually functionally benefit us! Congrats to the Kingpin of KingPin - user Protohyp. True ingenuity!

Seems like for a bit Kingpin is only available though the partnership with ARMaglock. Head to their website if interested.
Hey, thanks for putting this thread together. Admittedly, I'm late to the game in trying to play catch up with registration v. not (using compliance options), so this thread was pretty helpful. In actuality, I've been waiting to see if one of the lawsuits/injunctions would come into play, but now it's looking like I've got to make a move.

I'd like to see some of Protohyp's most recent threads/vids about his products, and I'll be looking for them. However, if you could provide a link that might be helpful and would be greatly appreciated.

PS: Thanks for the brief review of what you ended up buying. You may have saved me alot more research.
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  #278  
Old 05-22-2018, 7:57 AM
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guest1 guest1 is offline
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if you haven't purchased anything yet and are on the fence, I'll be going into production soon with my pin and automag release
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1442734

Last edited by guest1; 05-22-2018 at 10:22 AM..
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  #279  
Old 05-22-2018, 8:17 AM
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ChamberCheck ChamberCheck is offline
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Originally Posted by guest1 View Post
if you haven't purchased anything yet and are on the fence, I'll be going into production soon with my pin and automag release
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ight=fixed+mag
Thank you. I'll definitely take a look. Currently I'm reading the entire thread about AW Registration - The Complete Guide. It's not because I plan on registering...I just want to get as caught up as I can. Regards.

Dave
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  #280  
Old 05-22-2018, 8:28 AM
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cockedandglocked cockedandglocked is offline
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Originally Posted by ChamberCheck View Post
Thank you. I'll definitely take a look. Currently I'm reading the entire thread about AW Registration - The Complete Guide. It's not because I plan on registering...I just want to get as caught up as I can. Regards.

Dave
Not a lot of point in reading the whole thread, it's a lot of pages of people talking back and forth trying to figure out what's going on for the last few months. Posts 1-5 in there sum up everything we've learned, and it's all up to date right now with all the latest info we have.
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