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Survival and Preparations Long and short term survival and 'prepping'.

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  #721  
Old 12-17-2017, 9:37 PM
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Originally Posted by vg247 View Post
Thanks very much as always JDay- Iím going to go with a Crye Precision JPC, my specifications are to get plates which stop the M855 which are lightweight, deciding on whether to get side plate protection as well.
Then the DKX M12 is probably exactly what you are looking for. They'll likely be the next level 4 plates that I get as well since they are lightweight, buoyant and can take multiple hits without compromising the ARMOR. At around $500/plate for the 10x12 or $650 for the 11x14 they aren't cheap but the weight savings and durability are well worth it.

https://cqbsouth.com/product/m12-ser...s-nij-iv-plus/




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Last edited by JDay; 12-17-2017 at 9:44 PM..
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  #722  
Old 12-17-2017, 9:52 PM
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If you don't need level 4 there's also the M7.

http://dkxarmor.com/m7-series.php

https://cqbsouth.com/product/m7-series-nij-iii-plus/

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  #723  
Old 12-17-2017, 9:55 PM
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Originally Posted by JDay View Post
Then the DKX M12 is probably exactly what you are looking for. They'll likely be the next level 4 plates that I get as well since they are lightweight, buoyant and can take multiple hits without compromising the ARMOR. At around $500/plate for the 10x12 or $650 for the 11x14 they aren't cheap but the weight savings and durability are well worth it.

https://cqbsouth.com/product/m12-ser...s-nij-iv-plus/




Youíre the man, thanks. Let me know if you do go with these and order, perhaps they may provide a multi discount if we both went in together.

Happy Holidays
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  #724  
Old 12-17-2017, 10:30 PM
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Youíre the man, thanks. Let me know if you do go with these and order, perhaps they may provide a multi discount if we both went in together.

Happy Holidays
It'll be a while before I can get these. Been buying a lot of tools lately and bought quite a few toys. I doubt they'd do a discount on anything less than a bulk order since they contact with different agencies.

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  #725  
Old 12-19-2017, 5:37 PM
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Originally Posted by d-r View Post
SAPIs are outdated at this point, though they will still work, and you would want to get them X-Rayed prior to use. It also depends on what threat you are expecting. If you need black tip protection, a multi-hit Level IV like the Midwest FM4 is a good choice. If thinner plates that will stop all 5.56 and most 7.62x39 (but not .308) are more your speed, the Midwest STX plates are still extremely nice.

Backers should be worn with all rifle plates, regardless of whether they are considered "stand alone."
The FM4 looks promising. It shows the Large as 10.125" x 13.25", 0.09in @6.3lbs... On paper it shows it fares a little better in thickness and weight against the Dfndr LVL4 with the same specs as above.

Pardon my ignorance, but when you say backers does that mean a level III soft armor worn under the PC?

IF that was the case how would the FM STX fare with a level III soft armor?
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  #726  
Old 12-22-2017, 10:52 PM
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Doc, do you have any recommendations for a Level II soft armor backer made in SAPI/ESAPI sizes? Quite easy to find IIIA from reputable manufacturers but II seems to be a bit challenging.
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  #727  
Old 01-03-2018, 5:23 PM
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Originally Posted by eric90503 View Post
The FM4 looks promising. It shows the Large as 10.125" x 13.25", 0.09in @6.3lbs... On paper it shows it fares a little better in thickness and weight against the Dfndr LVL4 with the same specs as above.

Pardon my ignorance, but when you say backers does that mean a level III soft armor worn under the PC?

IF that was the case how would the FM STX fare with a level III soft armor?
Backers are level IIIA or level II soft armor, usually cut to match the plate profile they are worn with.

Backers will typically not alter or change a plate's rating (for example, the addition of soft armor behind the STX plates will not make them capable of stopping M80 ball).

The main purpose of backers is twofold- first, as a "safety net" to catch rounds that are "just barely" stopped by the plate. This can happen if several rounds impact close together on a level III plate, or if a round has more velocity than the plate was rated for.

The second is to provide additional blunt trauma protection.

Patriot Man, sending PM.
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  #728  
Old 01-07-2018, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by JDay View Post
If you're going to get these new lightweight plates I'd go with a different vendor that has the ones that will stop M855.

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I don't believe there's plate made totally out of PE, that will stop M855. Hence why DKX's armor is Ceramic Poly. Also their plates are re-branded TenCate plates
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  #729  
Old 02-12-2018, 6:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Buffman View Post
I don't believe there's plate made totally out of PE, that will stop M855. Hence why DKX's armor is Ceramic Poly. Also their plates are re-branded TenCate plates
Correct, there is no pure PE plate that would stop M855. We have a level III+ PE/Ceramic plate that weighs 4.2 lbs which can stop the M855. Are you open to do some video for us? All of our plates have already been tested by NTS Chesapeake.
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  #730  
Old 02-12-2018, 7:08 PM
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Correct, there is no pure PE plate that would stop M855. We have a level III+ PE/Ceramic plate that weighs 4.2 lbs which can stop the M855. Are you open to do some video for us? All of our plates have already been tested by NTS Chesapeake.
I'm more than open to do testing to help further educate end users about performance aspects of armor

Last edited by Buffman; 02-12-2018 at 7:16 PM..
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  #731  
Old 03-01-2018, 2:05 PM
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I've been wanting to buy armor for quite some time, and now I definitely want to get a plate for my wife's backpack.

I want as much protection as possible, which leads me to Level IV, but can most Level IV plates sustain multiple hits from non-AP rounds?

I believe the most realistic threats are from standard / non-AP rounds; am I best off with ceramic Level IV, or steel III or IIIa or whatever it is?

Thanks!
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  #732  
Old 03-04-2018, 1:19 PM
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Originally Posted by DrjonesUSA View Post
I've been wanting to buy armor for quite some time, and now I definitely want to get a plate for my wife's backpack.

I want as much protection as possible, which leads me to Level IV, but can most Level IV plates sustain multiple hits from non-AP rounds?

I believe the most realistic threats are from standard / non-AP rounds; am I best off with ceramic Level IV, or steel III or IIIa or whatever it is?

Thanks!

Hi Doc,

Your question is a good one, and highlights the counter-intuitive nature of the NIJ rating system. For the hard armor ratings, it is not a direct-scaling of capability as it is for soft armor. Level IV is rated for a single round of M2 AP, while III is rated for 6 rounds of M80 ball in a 6" circle. So unless your wife needs specific protection against AP rifle rounds, III is the way to go.

IIIA is pistol-rated, and will not stop rifle rounds.

My recommendation is to go to my site and read all the Good, Bad, Ugly posts. They were written to provide an in-depth overview of all aspects of modern body armor.

That said, for use in a backpack, steel would probably be be the best bet, as it will be insensitive to rough handling.

Please let me know if you have any further questions.
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  #733  
Old 03-08-2018, 6:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d-r View Post
Hi Doc,

Your question is a good one, and highlights the counter-intuitive nature of the NIJ rating system. For the hard armor ratings, it is not a direct-scaling of capability as it is for soft armor. Level IV is rated for a single round of M2 AP, while III is rated for 6 rounds of M80 ball in a 6" circle. So unless your wife needs specific protection against AP rifle rounds, III is the way to go.

IIIA is pistol-rated, and will not stop rifle rounds.

My recommendation is to go to my site and read all the Good, Bad, Ugly posts. They were written to provide an in-depth overview of all aspects of modern body armor.

That said, for use in a backpack, steel would probably be be the best bet, as it will be insensitive to rough handling.

Please let me know if you have any further questions.
Depends on the IIIA. There are some manufacturers who are making hard PE IIIA (labeling them as IIIA+) plates that will indeed stop M193. But then we're left with M855 concern.

Last edited by Buffman; 03-09-2018 at 6:45 AM..
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  #734  
Old 03-10-2018, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d-r View Post
Hi Doc,

Your question is a good one, and highlights the counter-intuitive nature of the NIJ rating system. For the hard armor ratings, it is not a direct-scaling of capability as it is for soft armor. Level IV is rated for a single round of M2 AP, while III is rated for 6 rounds of M80 ball in a 6" circle. So unless your wife needs specific protection against AP rifle rounds, III is the way to go.

IIIA is pistol-rated, and will not stop rifle rounds.

My recommendation is to go to my site and read all the Good, Bad, Ugly posts. They were written to provide an in-depth overview of all aspects of modern body armor.

That said, for use in a backpack, steel would probably be be the best bet, as it will be insensitive to rough handling.

Please let me know if you have any further questions.

Thanks! Yeah, I get confused with III, IIIA, III+, and all these other ratings, some of which seem to be both new and completely fabricated as marketing tools by certain manufacturers.

Can you please post or PM me a link to your site & Iíll be sure to visit?

The backpack is my wifeís car kit; contains trauma supplies, warm clothes, and other emergency items, but yeah; I agree the steel might be a better choice.

Thank you!
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  #735  
Old 03-10-2018, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by DrjonesUSA View Post
Thanks! Yeah, I get confused with III, IIIA, III+, and all these other ratings, some of which seem to be both new and completely fabricated as marketing tools by certain manufacturers.

Can you please post or PM me a link to your site & Iíll be sure to visit?

The backpack is my wifeís car kit; contains trauma supplies, warm clothes, and other emergency items, but yeah; I agree the steel might be a better choice.

Thank you!
The link to his site is in his Sig line.

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  #736  
Old 03-10-2018, 12:14 PM
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Anyone have experience with this company or their product: https://safelifedefense.com
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  #737  
Old 03-11-2018, 5:22 PM
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Anyone have experience with this company or their product: https://safelifedefense.com
Non USA made armor, but at least they have theirs actually tested and the lab reports on their website. I've been trying to get a sample, but they don't seem to be interested.
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  #738  
Old 03-13-2018, 2:23 PM
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First off, awesome thread by D-R, Buffman, and everyone else. I read most of the info here, and will be reading D-R's site shortly. I'm looking to add a plate in my backpack that I carry for work for a couple of reasons, and I was simply planning to order a III+ LW from AR500. Since this is for a backpack, should I order a flat one, or a curved still? Also, is there something better I should look at within (relative) price range? I'm not looking for ceramic or the DKX stuff, since my back will get tossed around.

I'm also planning to order plates for a carrier. I plan to take some rifle/carbine classes, and feel like my Point Blank soft armor was great for pistol classes, but I might need to step that up with the rifle drills. As much as I'd like to spring for the top tier stuff, I cannot justify spending the big bucks on something that will only be worn a few times a year. But at the same time, the more comfortable it is, the lighter they are, the more likely I'd wear them. Anyone else have this debate in their heads? After a bunch of research, I think I'll end up wearing the Point Blank III soft armor I have now in a new carrier with new plates, I just don't know which.

Jerry
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  #739  
Old 03-13-2018, 6:48 PM
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Originally Posted by bug_eyedmonster View Post
I'm not looking for ceramic or the DKX stuff, since my back will get tossed around.

Jerry
Ceramic plates are a lot more durable than you think. If you're worried about them breaking you can always put a trauma pad on each side.

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  #740  
Old 03-19-2018, 1:25 PM
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Dunno, those plates are heavy. May go middle of the road with soft 3a inserts. Cant affird the fancy tech. Gonna try the Spartan flex fused core.
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  #741  
Old 03-19-2018, 7:00 PM
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If going IIIA, ensure you get the correct materials used. Standard Kevlar/aramid is not affected by temperature, unlike most of the newer, lighter, thinner synthetics which can lose their ballistic protection when left in hi temps... Like leaving the bag in the car on a sunny day day... Pooof worthless.
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  #742  
Old 03-20-2018, 6:07 AM
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To answer the past few questions:

No experience yet with Safelife. I would recommend contacting them and asking what their soft armor consists of. When a manufacturer says Kevlar, it can mean many things: a laminate, a mixture of laminate and woven, or pure woven. At this time, pure woven, or (much rarer) wovenate construction are the only acceptable constituents of soft armor.

The plates appear to be hard UHMWPE, which as I have stated before, are acceptable as long as their limitations and weaknesses are known (susceptible to temps above 190 F, M855).

The reason I would be leery is the "Non-US made" part. This opens the door to variables in terms of construction and materials that may cancel out any perceived price benefit. NIJ testing is nice, but I have seen plenty of NIJ certified armor not live up to the certification. As I have said before, many times, the NIJ protocol is outdated, and needs to be retired. The DEA/FBI protocols are MUCH more stringent, and reflect real world variables much better.

BEM, I would actually recommend curved for your backpack. Flat is appropriate for a briefcase or duffel, but having the curvature will help with comfort. Chase Tactical AR1000 plates are my current recommend for the 3+ threat level. Chase for the plate carrier would also be my recommend. As funds allow, would also recommend getting soft armor backers for the carrier.

J, they are, but still nowhere near what steel or UHMWPE plates can withstand. Ceramic plates are great for agencies or militaries with the budgets to support replacement, and yes, they provide superior ballistics in some cases. But the price curve for steel (not to mention that it is basically a lifetime purchase) makes more sense for the average shooter. And putting a backer on both sides is both cost-prohibitive and will increase the already thick profile to the point of impracticality.

Foebia, ensure whichever soft armor you go with, it is made from either 100% woven aramid, or aramid wovenate. Avoid UHMWPE soft armor, due to known issues with temp sensitivity.
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  #743  
Old 03-20-2018, 12:53 PM
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THank you for addressing my comment d-r. The one i had in mind are the UHMWPE. Also caught the article on your site. Thanks for the heads up.
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  #744  
Old 03-23-2018, 1:04 PM
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Received the soft armor inserts and on the tag it says Threat: IIIIa

Never heard of 4a only 3a soft armor level. Is this something new, typo, or scam? It from Spartan armor.
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  #745  
Old 03-24-2018, 3:00 PM
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picture of label?
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  #746  
Old 03-24-2018, 8:44 PM
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On their website they sell IIIa and no IIIIa. Must be a typo. Upload a pic of the label when you have a chance.

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  #747  
Old 03-25-2018, 8:10 AM
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after having trouble finding a carrier that could hold my 10x12 plates w/ d-r's spall guards and backers, and also be compact enough for a smaller guy, i took a chance on the SKD PIG. it's not cheap, so was nervous that it wouldn't work (after buying 2 not too expensive ones and having them not work). they say it will hold 10x12 to 11x14 plates.

it's a pretty nice carrier, the plate pocket has velcro all the way around the inside, which is how it can hold 10x12 and 11x14. also has a separate pocket in the back for backers. the good news is the plate/spall guard combo DID fit, but barely! it was a bit of work to work them into position, but they did fit. also was able to get d-r's backers in the other pocket, again, pretty tight fit but got them in there. and the carrier isn't too bulky, i think it fits and covers me pretty well.

thanks for the suggestion d-r.
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  #748  
Old 03-25-2018, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dx2 View Post
after having trouble finding a carrier that could hold my 10x12 plates w/ d-r's spall guards and backers, and also be compact enough for a smaller guy, i took a chance on the SKD PIG. it's not cheap, so was nervous that it wouldn't work (after buying 2 not too expensive ones and having them not work). they say it will hold 10x12 to 11x14 plates.

it's a pretty nice carrier, the plate pocket has velcro all the way around the inside, which is how it can hold 10x12 and 11x14. also has a separate pocket in the back for backers. the good news is the plate/spall guard combo DID fit, but barely! it was a bit of work to work them into position, but they did fit. also was able to get d-r's backers in the other pocket, again, pretty tight fit but got them in there. and the carrier isn't too bulky, i think it fits and covers me pretty well.

thanks for the suggestion d-r.
My pleasure, D, and glad it worked. There's a reason I am recommending the PIG and the Mayflower APC.

It also shows why steel plates are at an advantage vs. Ceramic, and even more so vs. pure UHMWPE plates- thickness. Even with spall guards installed, your steel plates are no thicker than alot of Ceramic plates, and most UHMWPE plates are much thicker.

I am working on my plate carriers, and they will address the current lack of versatility in plate choice.

Foebia, that was definitely a typo. No such thing as level IVA.
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  #749  
Old 03-25-2018, 12:27 PM
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d-r, is there an updated 'recommended armor database'? the one i can find is from nov 2015.

while i think i will be happy w/ the steel plates i have, the whole rig weighs in at 21 lbs. i suppose that's not TERRIBLE, but just curious what's new out there a yr+ later.

thanks!
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  #750  
Old 03-25-2018, 1:08 PM
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What are the Israeli developing in terms of lightweight stuff. A few years back they had some really nice stuff. I would not trust anything else made in the world outside the U.S. but it might be worth a look.
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  #751  
Old 03-26-2018, 7:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dx2 View Post
d-r, is there an updated 'recommended armor database'? the one i can find is from nov 2015.

while i think i will be happy w/ the steel plates i have, the whole rig weighs in at 21 lbs. i suppose that's not TERRIBLE, but just curious what's new out there a yr+ later.

thanks!
Working on it right now. Just difficult to find the time with all the projects that are in the works.

Not much has changed, since the technology is very incremental, rather than revolutionary. Maingun is no longer making the Patriot 2, and several companies have stepping in to make Armox Advance plates. Currently recommend Chase Tactical AR1000, as neither Spartan nor CATI responded at all to emails regarding their III+ plates.

The market is still saturated with UHMWPE soft armor, in spite of the glaring weaknesses and hazards associated with it.

M5 fiber is still unobtanium, in spite of being far superior to any current armor fiber available.
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  #752  
Old 03-26-2018, 8:25 PM
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D-R, I can probably get you a contact at CATI if needed?
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  #753  
Old 03-27-2018, 7:48 AM
dx2 dx2 is offline
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Working on it right now. Just difficult to find the time with all the projects that are in the works.

Not much has changed, since the technology is very incremental, rather than revolutionary. Maingun is no longer making the Patriot 2, and several companies have stepping in to make Armox Advance plates. Currently recommend Chase Tactical AR1000, as neither Spartan nor CATI responded at all to emails regarding their III+ plates.

The market is still saturated with UHMWPE soft armor, in spite of the glaring weaknesses and hazards associated with it.

M5 fiber is still unobtanium, in spite of being far superior to any current armor fiber available.
i understand, just wasn't sure if i had missed an update.

i looked up the chase tactical, very similar specs as the patriot armor from patriot defense. the chase is about 1.5 lbs lighter (per plate), but costs about 50% more (per pair). was nearly 2x more expensive, but patriot has been raising prices over the last 2 yrs. i believe buffman has tested the patriot, and if i recall, the wound channel did also and it did stop m193 to 3200fps as advertised. at 3300fps, it did penetrate.

thanks for the info and products you supply.
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Old 03-28-2018, 7:50 AM
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I am working on my plate carriers, and they will address the current lack of versatility in plate choice.
do you have any more info on your carrier? when it will be ready, how much, size/specs? i will be in the market for a cpl more, and would definitely be interested in it, or more PIGs.
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  #755  
Old 04-03-2018, 3:32 PM
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About to order a multi cam Banshee carrier from Optics Planet for $153 shipped unless you guys think thereís a better American made alternative? Just read this thread from to back and seems like itís good to go, but it been a while since the topic has been brought up for that price point. Thanks for any insight! Looking to buy level 3+ lightweight plates too if they ever go on sale from AR500.
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  #756  
Old 04-03-2018, 5:18 PM
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Banshee is good to go. Sure there are alternatives, but matching that pricepoint, quality, and made in USA is very difficult to beat. And for that reason, I too choose the banshee years ago. You won't be disappointed.
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  #757  
Old 04-03-2018, 6:39 PM
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Thank you
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  #758  
Old 04-09-2018, 6:24 PM
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Hello everyone, hoping for some advice.
I recently bought a crye jpc medium (med sapi) and been spending a ton of time researching what I want to purchase for plates. I want to keep things lightweight but protect from common rifle rounds in the US (5.56 m193,green tip etc.). I have been looking at the tencate cr2000 plates sold by skdtactical and the midwest fm stx plates. Any other plates I should be looking at in the same category? Thanks for any and all advice!
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  #759  
Old 04-10-2018, 7:41 AM
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Hello everyone, hoping for some advice.
I recently bought a crye jpc medium (med sapi) and been spending a ton of time researching what I want to purchase for plates. I want to keep things lightweight but protect from common rifle rounds in the US (5.56 m193,green tip etc.). I have been looking at the tencate cr2000 plates sold by skdtactical and the midwest fm stx plates. Any other plates I should be looking at in the same category? Thanks for any and all advice!
Jake, as I was reading the first part of your post, I was going to recommend the Midwest FM-STX.

These would be best for what you are looking for. Excellent plates.
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  #760  
Old 04-16-2018, 6:37 PM
matt_b matt_b is offline
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Anyone check out the Tactical Scorpion Gear Lightweight Composite Level III+ Armor. Its pretty impressive.... well expect for the back deformation. The Mrgunsngear Channel did a review on it not to long ago. Its Polyethylene type armor if anyone is curious.Most amazing spec about these is they weight 53 ounces (3.3125 pounds).
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