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Long Distance Shooting Discuss tools, techniques, tips and theories of long distance shooting

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  #1  
Old 04-19-2020, 2:49 AM
DTran333 DTran333 is offline
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Default Accurizing Packages

I looked around and felt like this was the best place to post this question since it's specific to long range shooting. Are there any good gunsmiths in SoCal that specialize in building precision rifles or offer accurizing/blueprinting packages on a rifle you already own? I know there are places I could send a rifle out to but I prefer to support local businesses, if possible. I'm wanting to build a precision rifle from a Remington 700. Thanks in advance.

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Old 04-19-2020, 8:55 AM
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Check with Randall (ar15 barrels here on CG) he may know someone.
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Old 04-19-2020, 6:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Fjold View Post
Check with Randall (ar15 barrels here on CG) he may know someone.
Thanks! I'll get in touch with him.
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Old 04-19-2020, 7:17 PM
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Originally Posted by DTran333 View Post
Thanks! I'll get in touch with him.
I was messing with you. Randall can set up your gun to shoot as far as you want. Just PM him and you can sit in his shop watch him do it.
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Old 05-12-2020, 1:06 AM
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Originally Posted by DTran333 View Post
I looked around and felt like this was the best place to post this question since it's specific to long range shooting. Are there any good gunsmiths in SoCal that specialize in building precision rifles or offer accurizing/blueprinting packages on a rifle you already own? I know there are places I could send a rifle out to but I prefer to support local businesses, if possible. I'm wanting to build a precision rifle from a Remington 700. Thanks in advance.
I know shipping a rifle sucks.

But honestly https://www.longriflesinc.com/ is the best in the business for R700 work imho.
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Old 05-12-2020, 1:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Mk.32 View Post
I know shipping a rifle sucks.

But honestly https://www.longriflesinc.com/ is the best in the business for R700 work imho.
Cool. Thanks, bud! I'll check it out.
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  #7  
Old 05-12-2020, 4:10 PM
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The single best thing you can do to your remington is simply a new custom barrel by a smith and the 2nd best thing is probably a trigger.

Doing "accurizing" packages seems a little gimicky in that the true accuracy of most guns lies in quality of the barrel and the quality of the shooter or the shooter's ability to consistently pull the trigger the correct way. My opinion on upgrading or truing 700 actions is to pass on it and dump the money on the barrel, trigger, and scope instead OR just get a custom action in the 800-900 dollar range.

That being said, AR15Barrels is one guy and another one is Marc @ Spartan Rifles out of San Jose, CA. Spartan is doing work for a number of ranked PRS shooters and some F-Class and Benchrest guys. The most recent shooter/customer accomplishments are long range BR national record group sizes and a PRS national match win.
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Old 05-12-2020, 5:44 PM
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Originally Posted by bsumoba View Post
The single best thing you can do to your remington is simply a new custom barrel by a smith and the 2nd best thing is probably a trigger.

Doing "accurizing" packages seems a little gimicky in that the true accuracy of most guns lies in quality of the barrel and the quality of the shooter or the shooter's ability to consistently pull the trigger the correct way. My opinion on upgrading or truing 700 actions is to pass on it and dump the money on the barrel, trigger, and scope instead OR just get a custom action in the 800-900 dollar range.

That being said, AR15Barrels is one guy and another one is Marc @ Spartan Rifles out of San Jose, CA. Spartan is doing work for a number of ranked PRS shooters and some F-Class and Benchrest guys. The most recent shooter/customer accomplishments are long range BR national record group sizes and a PRS national match win.
Thanks, I'll check them out.
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Old 05-12-2020, 5:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsumoba View Post
Doing "accurizing" packages seems a little gimicky in that the true accuracy of most guns lies in quality of the barrel and the quality of the shooter or the shooter's ability to consistently pull the trigger the correct way. My opinion on upgrading or truing 700 actions is to pass on it and dump the money on the barrel, trigger, and scope instead OR just get a custom action in the 800-900 dollar range.
Mass produced actions can never get the same 100% consistent lockup of the bolt lugs and thus never 100% consistent chamber pressures and case fitment into the chamber. For truing and timing the action is the only way to make sure that is the best possible fit for consistency.

But, and its a big but, it really only matters when you can out shoot the rifle in its current form as well as the custom loaded super precise ammo to take advantage of the action consistency.

So its not a gimmick but it sure is low on the list of things you can do to improve your game IMHO
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Old 05-12-2020, 8:22 PM
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The last rifle that I put together, instead of buying a Remington action and having it trued, I bought a Stiller Predator action that was already trued. It is possible to buy a Remington action that is so out of true that it cannot be trued.
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  #11  
Old 05-13-2020, 7:11 AM
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I know you dont want to ship, but DMR LLC in Vegas one to look at.
Great customer service and incredibly fast turn around.

www.dmr-llc.com
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Old 05-13-2020, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by broadside View Post
Mass produced actions can never get the same 100% consistent lockup of the bolt lugs and thus never 100% consistent chamber pressures and case fitment into the chamber. For truing and timing the action is the only way to make sure that is the best possible fit for consistency.

But, and its a big but, it really only matters when you can out shoot the rifle in its current form as well as the custom loaded super precise ammo to take advantage of the action consistency.

So its not a gimmick but it sure is low on the list of things you can do to improve your game IMHO
I guess the question more is...if you "true up" a R700 action, would you see improvements in accuracy given no change to the barrel? My gut instinct is no. But, if you change out the barrel on a factory rifle you should see very noticeable improvements to the accuracy of the rifle.

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Originally Posted by RandyD View Post
The last rifle that I put together, instead of buying a Remington action and having it trued, I bought a Stiller Predator action that was already trued. It is possible to buy a Remington action that is so out of true that it cannot be trued.
This is another reason why it doesn't make sense to true an action is because the truing may not be possible or the truing does absolutely nothing to improve the gun's ability to shoot better groups.
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by bsumoba View Post
I guess the question more is...if you "true up" a R700 action, would you see improvements in accuracy given no change to the barrel? My gut instinct is no. But, if you change out the barrel on a factory rifle you should see very noticeable improvements to the accuracy of the rifle.



This is another reason why it doesn't make sense to true an action is because the truing may not be possible or the truing does absolutely nothing to improve the gun's ability to shoot better groups.
If your ammo is tuned to the barrel then yes it can improve the precision if you are 100% consistent shooting it. The reason is that truing the action sets and holds the cartridge in the chamber much more consistently and thus your pressures and velocities are more consistent resulting in more precise shots.

But again, unless you are shooting 100% consistent and the load is tuned to the rifle then truing the action is low on the list of upgrades IMHO.

To me, truing is best left to the bench rest shooters or those that just want to claim they have done it to a production/semi-custom rifle. Ground up builds with truly custom actions are already trued and timed, that is part of the package/price. But to do it to a hunting rifle or PRS rifle even, is not necessary until you can out shoot it as-is
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Old 05-13-2020, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsumoba View Post
I guess the question more is...if you "true up" a R700 action, would you see improvements in accuracy given no change to the barrel? My gut instinct is no. But, if you change out the barrel on a factory rifle you should see very noticeable improvements to the accuracy of the rifle.



This is another reason why it doesn't make sense to true an action is because the truing may not be possible or the truing does absolutely nothing to improve the gun's ability to shoot better groups.
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Originally Posted by broadside View Post
If your ammo is tuned to the barrel then yes it can improve the precision if you are 100% consistent shooting it. The reason is that truing the action sets and holds the cartridge in the chamber much more consistently and thus your pressures and velocities are more consistent resulting in more precise shots.

But again, unless you are shooting 100% consistent and the load is tuned to the rifle then truing the action is low on the list of upgrades IMHO.

To me, truing is best left to the bench rest shooters or those that just want to claim they have done it to a production/semi-custom rifle. Ground up builds with truly custom actions are already trued and timed, that is part of the package/price. But to do it to a hunting rifle or PRS rifle even, is not necessary until you can out shoot it as-is
But how would you true up the barrel tenon threads and still use the old barrel?

Receiver truing uses the bolt raceway axis as the datum. Then the bolt lugs, receiver front face, and barrel tenon threads are re-cut to that axis.

Cutting the barrel tenon threads leaves the threads oversized, the old barrel would be a sloppy fit in the new threads.
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Old 05-13-2020, 12:57 PM
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Randall did mine, he did so many different things that all helped and when added together make for a great rifle.
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  #16  
Old 05-13-2020, 1:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broadside View Post
To me, truing is best left to the bench rest shooters or those that just want to claim they have done it to a production/semi-custom rifle. Ground up builds with truly custom actions are already trued and timed, that is part of the package/price. But to do it to a hunting rifle or PRS rifle even, is not necessary until you can out shoot it as-is
This is why I call it gimicky. It sounds good, but with the mfg put out 900 dollar actions in the market, there is no need to do this anymore. Maybe a few years back it was enticing because custom actions were pushing 1200-1300 at the time, but cost have come down quite a bit in the sense that the mfg found ways to cut cost on certain designs, materials or handling in production and passed that along to the end customer. Someone who wants a serious gun to shoot small groups isn't really going the R700 trued action route today and especially now when there are 900 dollar custom action in the market that are superior in all sorts of ways.

Most "truing" jobs involves truing the threads, face and bolt lug locking surfaces, the bolt face and lugs . They typically don't bush the firing pin hole to remove the slop and they don't improve the extraction by converting it to say a mini-16 style extractor, all of which are present on the 900 dollar actions. By the time you have done all that to a R700 action, you might as well have gone with the 900 dollar Defiance Tenacity action or similar mfg action.


The average person who wants to make their R700 shoot better is to simply put a custom barrel on it. I just helped a friend do one. No accurizing of his action, just a new custom barrel. The thing shoots 5 shot groups in sub 3/8 MOA easy at 100 yards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmykan View Post
But how would you true up the barrel tenon threads and still use the old barrel?...
Cutting the barrel tenon threads leaves the threads oversized, the old barrel would be a sloppy fit in the new threads.
I was talking from a theoretical perspective if you used the old barrel.

If the OP was seeing poor results from his R700 and wants to simply improve his accuracy in his gun, don't true up the action. Just get a new custom barrel.
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Old 05-13-2020, 1:43 PM
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The single best thing you can do to your remington is simply a new custom barrel by a smith and the 2nd best thing is probably a trigger.
... and another one is Marc @ Spartan Rifles out of San Jose, CA.
new barrel, trigger, then glass and stock. will show the most improvement for most factory guns.

Not in SoCal but if you are not against shipping or coming up to the bay area
Marc is my smith he has built 2 rifles for me a 6BR that shoots in the .2s as long as I do my part (best group was .060" at 100 yards) and a switch barrel .221/.223 that also shoots lights out sub .5 MOA. Great guy to work with.
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Old 05-13-2020, 1:56 PM
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Randall is in Van Nuys/ Reseda. I have has 2 precision rifles built by him: a R700 blueprinted action from PTG and Bartlein barrel in .308, and a Defiance Deviant action and Bartlein barrel in 6.5 creedmoor. They both shoot lights out.

Randall is a master machinist and it shows in his builds. You will be very happy if you have him build your rifle.
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Old 05-13-2020, 2:14 PM
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Let me know if you find someone who makes Accurizing Packages for old men
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Old 05-13-2020, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyD View Post
It is possible to buy a Remington action that is so out of true that it cannot be trued.
No it's not.
I could true ANY 700 receiver, no matter how far out it is.
The older ones are further out than the newer ones.

The newer ones are not bad at all.
Switching out the 50+ year old tooling in the mid 2000's really improved the consistency of 700 receivers.
The ones from the 70's and 80's need the most work.
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Old 05-13-2020, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsumoba View Post
I guess the question more is...if you "true up" a R700 action, would you see improvements in accuracy given no change to the barrel?
My gut instinct is no.
But, if you change out the barrel on a factory rifle you should see very noticeable improvements to the accuracy of the rifle.
The vast majority of accuracy comes from the new barrel that you fit after truing.
Tightening up bolt fit to the reciever will notably tighten groups that are caused by bolt slap within the receiver during bullet travel down the barrel.
This can be seen while dry firing.
A gun with a really sloppy bolt will actually knock itself off target.
Eliminating the excess bolt movement in such a reciever will noticeably reduce the aiming point jump.

A PROPER truing job includes opening up the thread size of the barrel threads to perfectly center the threads on the bore of the reciever.
THIS is why factory barrels always get replaced as part of a REAL truing job.
There are a whole bunch of shops offering "truing" work that is NOT a PROPER truing job.

Many are using piloted taps to cut the threads oversized.
These methods don't actually perfectly center the threads because the tap follows the off-axis existing threads and slop between the pilot and the reciever all gets taken out to the side that the threads are off axis by.
I suppose that if a shop is using such a tooling setup, they may run into receivers that they can't fix because they simply don't have the skill and tooling to do it with single point tools in a single common setup.

Perhaps that's what RandyD was talking about when saying that some receivers are not able to be trued.
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by bsumoba View Post
Most "truing" jobs involves truing the threads, face and bolt lug locking surfaces, the bolt face and lugs .
They typically don't bush the firing pin hole to remove the slop and they don't improve the extraction by converting it to say a mini-16 style extractor, all of which are present on the 900 dollar actions.
It's not worth doing bolt work anymore because you can order a one piece bolt made to spec from PTG which fixes ALL the ills of a factory bolt.
These are the same type of bolts used in many custom actions.
By having the bolt body made to fit the reciever better and with the firing pin hole size of your choice as well as the boltface and extractor cut of your choice.
For around $200 for the bolt, it's not worth spending shop labor to re-use the old bolt.
That's why all the truing jobs I do will get a new bolt that will be sized according to what the customer will be doing with the rifle, both from a finish perspective as well as from a use perspective.

So for the guy that already HAS a 700 action to build on, he can spend $250 on truing and $200 on a bolt without having to spend $1000 or more on a new action.
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:17 PM
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But how would you true up the barrel tenon threads and still use the old barrel?

Receiver truing uses the bolt raceway axis as the datum.
Then the bolt lugs, receiver front face, and barrel tenon threads are re-cut to that axis.

Cutting the barrel tenon threads leaves the threads oversized, the old barrel would be a sloppy fit in the new threads.
SHHHH.
That's the dirty secret that most places don't want to talk about because they are not even cutting new threads or working to the bolt raceway.
Many truing jobs are just slipping a mandrel in the reciever and re-cutting the lug seats and the face.

We won't even talk about how this trashes the primary extraction...
I think you know a little about primary extraction cam timing now after figuring out how to cut that cam and fit a bolt to it while it's still in the mill.
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Old 05-14-2020, 7:55 AM
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So for the guy that already HAS a 700 action to build on, he can spend $250 on truing and $200 on a bolt without having to spend $1000 or more on a new action.
Do you believe a trued up R700 would be as smooth and operationally as good as a custom action?

It seems like the cost when all is done, would be very close to that of a custom action:

* True Job: $250
* Complete New Bolt Assembly: ~$300 (this doesn't include cost to fit the bolt to the action)
* 20 MOA cant rail and aligning screw holes - $100 (typically done)
* Cerakote: $200 (omit this if they don't care of the aesthetics of the gun)

This is getting very very close to new action territory in cost.
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Old 05-14-2020, 9:45 AM
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Originally Posted by bsumoba View Post
Do you believe a trued up R700 would be as smooth and operationally as good as a custom action?

It seems like the cost when all is done, would be very close to that of a custom action:

* True Job: $250
* Complete New Bolt Assembly: ~$300 (this doesn't include cost to fit the bolt to the action)
* 20 MOA cant rail and aligning screw holes - $100 (typically done)
* Cerakote: $200 (omit this if they don't care of the aesthetics of the gun)

This is getting very very close to new action territory in cost.
A trued 700 can be as smooth and as operationally good as a custom action.
One reason people have their action trued is that they already HAVE the action.
This allows them to pay for the project in $300 bites instead of $1000+ all at once.
That's a legitimate factor for many people.

What you can't change so easily are design features like an integrated rail, integrated lug and thicker tang but those are features you usually don't get on the less expensive custom actions anyways.
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Old 05-14-2020, 1:50 PM
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I feel that I should tag this for future reference.
Tag.
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Old 05-21-2020, 5:17 PM
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Nobody has mentioned clearances in this thread because most posting here don't even know the difference.
Most custom actions are Remington 700 clones with add ons like a side bolt release or a integral rail or lug which do nothing at all for accuracy.
The clearances on some of these so called custom actions are often times worse than a 700.
The weak link about a 700 is stiffness so if you want to hang a heavy barrel you are better off using a barrel block which most stocks won't allow.
Peter White is a notable shooter who doesn't have any problem using a 700 in F-Class or Benchrest and winning.
The predator actions like mine in the above picture have around 0.004 worth of bolt slop. They don't have a magazine cutout which helps stiffen the action and the have a side bolt release which costs $125 on a 700.
Have Randall put your gun together and buy a custom only after doing your research.
The blue gun has more work on it than any PRS rifle would ever need. It's a 700 long action in a jon loh sleeve that stiffens the action. The bolt is double sleeved at 0.7045 in a 0.705 body which is tighter than 99% of all the custom actions on the market. Firing pin is bushed at 0.062 and it has a tightened bolt shroud as well.
The barrel weighs 27 pounds and is held by a 9 inch barrel block.
The weakest link in that setup is the barrel tenon diameter. The stock 700 uses a small tenon diameter so when your running a fat chambering there isn't much metal around the chamber like there is when using a larger tenon size. The bigger the tenon diameter the easier the bolt will cycle on hot loads.
Edit: if you consider a small case diameter like 0.378 in a barrel with a 1.062 tenon you have lots of metal around the chamber.
If you step it up to 0.590 chamber on a 1.062 tenon there isn't much metal left.
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Last edited by LynnJr; 05-23-2020 at 7:41 AM..
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Old 05-21-2020, 7:02 PM
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Peter White is a notable shooter who doesn't have any problem using a 700 in F-Class or Benchrest and winning.
The only thing I've seen Pete shoot are Barnard actions
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Old 05-23-2020, 7:22 AM
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You haven't been around long enough. I shot with him for years before you took up the sport.
Ask him if you have any doubts
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Old 05-23-2020, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
You haven't been around long enough. I shot with him for years before you took up the sport.
Ask him if you have any doubts
I'm just saying he doesn't, or hasn't shot them in a very long time.
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Old 05-24-2020, 8:24 AM
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Gotcha.
You know a shooter from Coalinga named Dusty?
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