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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel. |
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#41
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I've wanted to say this for a long time, but have held back. No more.
GURA ISNT GOD. Get that through your head. Gura is a man fighting for our rights. Nothing more, nothing less. People here tend to idolize him and put him up on a pedestal to the point that he's infallible and can do no wrong. Gura fights from a judicial aspect, because that's his specialty. Wayne/NRA fight from the public and private sphere. He is not God either. Does anyone really think that the NRA doesnt share Gura's view that the 2A is a fundamental, civil right? If that's the way that Wayne would have responded, he would have been absolutely TORN apart. There's a time and place for insisting upon our constitutional, GOD GIVEN rights......but his press conference was NOT the place to fight a constitutional crisis on the 2A. People were looking for answers. "Why did this happen?", "How could this happen?", "What are we going to do about it to prevent it in the future?" That's not the realm that Gura deals with. If Wayne got up there and started spewing how they cant restrict a dang thing because we have our 2A civil rights, he'd look like a blithering moron because 1) It doesnt answer ANY of the "why" questions, 2) It's not helpful in preventing future crazies from going postal, and 3) It would make him look like he didnt care if it happened in the future again. He was giving reasons for the madness, and answers to prevent it. He was speaking to people like you and me.....not to Supreme Court justices. Gura and LaPierre come from two different sides under the Gun Rights umbrella. For Gura to attack him like that is absolutely NOT helpful. He needs to leave Wayne to his sphere of influence and stick to his own.
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www.FirearmReviews.net |
#42
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If violent video games & movies are responsible for acts of violence by criminals, then the parents of those criminals should be charged with conspiracy, if they allowed their kids to play or watch those games/movies before the age of 18. That bogus argument is the same that was made about music & immorality since the 1950s.
Belknap & Vance were not murdered because of Judas Priest, only their own stupidity. Start @ 2:15 |
#43
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As with many polarized issues in our country these days, the independents are the ones that hold the true deciding power. Every effort should be made to win them over if you want to be successful. If they are not on your side, you have an uphill battle every single time. |
#44
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You mean Gura should stick to fighting for civil rights and La Pierre should stick to fundraising? That's harsh.
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#45
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I was made to keep both of them in a buddies barn an hour away because lord help my mother (who couldn't bring herself to have them trashed because she had a lot of love for her uncle) if a gun were to ever come into her house. Now, 21 year old trying to work out a plan to make rent so I can leave, have a handgun in my room and a safe at capacity with the guns I've slowly acquired over time. Also been a few other friends and relations I've worked on with it and succeeded. The thing to remember, is even though it's unfortunately a minority (larger than a cynic wants to think) of people, there are a lot of folk out there who are 'big' enough to admit when they're wrong. They're ignorant because they've never really thought about or are surrounded by others that they trust who hold that opinion, and so have never had to question it. All you need to do is be willing to discuss it, be honest when you do, be able to answer questions on the philosophical arguments, and have your evidence in line for the fact based ones. You'd be shocked how many people are willing to listen if you talk to them about it instead of talking at them about it. |
#46
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"So, the brutal, merciless, savage mass murderer of first-graders in Connecticut was another in a long line of avid video game players who turned their sick fantasy into our tragic reality. Surprised? I train military and law enforcement nation-wide, on the road almost 300 days a year for 15 years. I was an Army Ranger and a West Point Psych Professor. An author of many very successful books on this subject. This is the perspective that I come from... Bottom line: From a military and law enforcement perspective, violent video games are "murder simulators" that train kids to kill. They act just like police and military simulators, providing conditioned responses, killing skills, and desensitization, except they are inflicted on children without the discipline of military and police training. Research on the background of our juvenile mass murderers show they have one thing in common: they ALL dropped out of life and filled their lives with nothing but violent movies and violent video games. The sickest video games and the sickest movies are very very sick indeed. And the sick sick kids who immerse themselves in this "entertainment" are very sick indeed. Jonesboro in the middle school, Columbine in the high school, Virginia Tech in the college, and now this generation gives us Sandy Hook as adults… The Sandy Hook massacre has been building for years. And there is much, much worse yet to come. (They are NOT "shootings" they are massacres ... five died in the "Boston Massacre" which touched off the American Revolution … six murdered in the "St. Valentines Day Massacre" … many times more were murdered in Sandy Hook and we hide the reality from ourselves by calling it a "shooting" … "shooting" is what happens on the range … a "shooter" is the guy who got lucky during deer season! These are brutal mass murderers, committing savage massacres unlike anything seen in human history.) This has all been building up for years. Consider the stats on officers murdered in the line of duty in the US: '08: 42 '09: 48 '10: 56 '11: 72 Anyone see a pattern here? Medical technology is holding DOWN the murder rate. The number of murdered cops should be going down every year. These are criminals who practiced killing cops since they were six years old, every day of their lives, playing Grand Theft Auto, and now they are primed to kill cops as adults. If we intentionally tried to raise a generation cocked and primed to kill, we could not have done a better job. The answer? Parents MUST enforce the rating system. They MUST understand the danger. To do that, they must be informed by our media! And the schools must begin to educate their kids! Go to www.TakeTheChallengeNow.net to learn about a school TV-turnoff curriculum pioneered by Stanford Med School and demonstrated to cut school violence and bullying in half! An "M" (mature, 17 and above ONLY) rated game is the same as an "X" rated movie! The people who manufacture the game say so. Their own industry says so! A "T" (teen) rating means no child under 13 should play the game. Period. It is a very tragic, horrendous situation when adults let their children immerse themselves in M rated games! Just like, sex, gambling, porn, alcohol, tobacco, drugs, guns, and automobiles: these are all things that adults must not give to kids! Not all of the kids who play these sick games will become killers, but they will all be desensitized to human death and suffering, intentionally and realistically inflicted by themselves, for their own entertainment… If YOUR child is one who commits a brutal crime, and YOU let them play these sick games, then the blood is on your hands too… (And YOU may well be the first one to die, as with this most recent incident.) This is NOT business as usual in America. Never lose your sense of outrage that every kid in America has to do lock-down drills, practicing "hunkering down and hiding" for when kids come to kill them. Never lose your sense of outrage that all of our cops practice going in our schools and shooting our kids with "active shooter response plans." These things are necessary, they work, they deter violent acts and they can save lives and hold down the body count when it does happen, but they are not normal. This is NOT just another day in America. This is NOT "business as usual" in America… Something is very, very wrong. And it is a world-wide phenomenon! Germany has had two mass murders in their high schools with body counts that beat Columbine. England had a massacre in the kindergarden class in Dunblain Scotland, tragically forecasting Sandy Hook. Canada had the Taber, Alberta school massacre. Finland has had three school massacres. In Norway the killer got on an island and killed all their kids. In China killers are going in the classrooms with knives and gutting and hacking the kids. In Belgium a sicko got in the day care center and hacked 12 babies in the cribs, dressed as the Joker form the Batman movie. (All those European gun laws made THEM real safe, eh?) And we though it wouldn't happen here!? And you think it's over now? The worst is yet to come. We will reap what we sow for a generation to come…. Until we stop teaching our kids to kill."
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#47
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Alright, so all the killers played games.
So what? Just about every male in the 18-30 age group does. These people played violent games.>They massacred people>Games lead to murder Is the same fallacy as Britain Banned Guns>Gun Crime went down>Crime is lower. It's a selection bias, and not a useful metric. Can you show me source material that says otherwise, or just Dr. Grossman's opinion on the matter? |
#48
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I strongly suspect they wouldn't help Lt Col Grossman's argument.
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#49
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The other thing that's changed is that we emptied the contents of hundreds of insane asylums on to the streets and I'm not sure what we can do about that without opening a new civil rights can of worms. Quote:
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"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." --FREDERIC BASTIAT-- Proud Life Member: National Rifle Association, the Second Amendment Foundation, and the California Rifle & Pistol Association |
#50
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I was disappointed by Gura's remarks. Frankly, in all of this, the NRA's suggestion that we put an armed presence in our schools is the only thing that has even a minimum chance of improving the situation. No other offered "solution" will work due to constitutional/social/mechanical reasons. The hilarious thing is that the NRA proposed cops and/or armed civilians. A few days before, Senator Boxer proposed using the National Guard. Yet LaPierre is the crazy one in the room?
So Gura wants to get in front of Cato and bash the NRA. Fine. Just out of curiosity, what are Gura's recommendations for ways to reduce the number of mass murders that we're seeing in gun free zones? Since he's so eager to throw stones, I'm sure he has a stellar proposal that's even better than what LaPierre suggested.
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Proud to belong to the NRA Members' Council of Santa Clara County Disclaimer: All opinions are entirely my own. |
#51
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* 1911 We adopted the 1911 * 1914 World War I begins I am going to claim that because of the excess of 1911 handguns, Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand was assassinated. I will back this argument with nothing else. There is simply zero proven causal link here, a weak (r < 0.5) correlation at best with say kids who are already violent becoming more violent. The article quoted perpetuates the same hysteria as antis do: let's remember, most gun violence is in the ghettos and not in the schools (and certainly not in white suburban schools!), school shootings are tragic but if you *or* the antis want to do something about gun violence, they should attack where the problem is acute *first* and then go from there. Finally murder and violence rates have actually been falling across the board, in general -- killing of cops, while disgusting, don't represent killing in general. You could also argue that the rate of policing has been increasing, so since more cops are at risk, more cops are killed. Again, I don't own a tv, don't plan to own one, and I've laid out my rule I'd suggest for letting kids play video games: other than a few non-violent, educational ones, the only other ones you get to play are the ones you write yourself (I've known a few kids who grow up like this, who built adventure/interactive fiction games as a result, that not only taught them programming, but also boosted their verbal fluency and imagination). However, that's my individual choice. I have zero right to impose that on others. I'm merely arguing to an individual right to play, own, or manufacture video games. This is a red-herring. All it does is make the principled free speech advocates shirk from you and not join foices (when even the legal arguments that are being used here -- due process, what constitutes protected exercise, what does not, etc...) are actually very similar. I'll say this: if you want free speech advocates who are unfamiliar with guns to err on your side when you argue that "assault weapons" don't constitute dangerous exercise of 2A, you should be willing to err on their side when they say that violent video games don't constitute dangerous exercise of 1A. Stick to principles people, principles. We can't hope to turn unprincipled opponents (the "morally flexible" crowd I deal with that likes to shoot guns, but also wants gun control for everyone else: to whom no right is sacred, just as no other ethical statement is) around, but we can hope to appeal to core love of liberty of the more principled ones. |
#52
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When the NRA issued its statement that directed attention to video games and movies, I was disappointed and believed it was an error. Keep in mind, I have never played a video game. After reading Lt. Col. Grossman's book, and listening to him speak, I believe this man has excellent insights into human behavior. Also keep in mind, that I have a strong bias against the mental health profession. When I read, that all of those murderers played video games and that they were all on SSRI drugs, I can't ignore the connections.
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#53
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Image is everything. It's an old saying that is taken more to heart today than ever before. In the world of social media, it's at the top of the list.
Wayne LaPierre, to me at least, comes across as kind of an old codger that doesn't feel comfortable in his own skin. It's hard to listen to what it is he is saying, because I keep thinking about other things in regards to his delivery. Gura on the other hand seems calm and confident in his manner and speech, and I find it easier to actually listen to what he has to say. If we are trying to connect with the younger generations, and try and get them to understand what exactly gun rights, and the second amendment are about, then I think we need to find more people like Gura to advance that message. Although people like Alex Jones and Ted Nugent are entertaining and are somewhat high profile, they likely represent another segment of the gun debate that won't advance the cause. We need to find people that come across as level headed and most importantly sane, or we will be shooting ourselves in the foot continuously. |
#54
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This is where the dichotomy is and where the concerns are. Alan's not that interested in 'solutions' nor does he have to be; a civil rights platform acknowledges bad things can happen under freedom, but freedom is worth the cost. Crime would be way lower if all our speech were monitored to and from our work camps ;-) The current seats on the Supremes seem to get this to some extent. And so has the 7th Circuit in Moore v Madigan, etc. The worry is that a few of WLP's statements might couple back into lower court judicial 'reasoning' ("Omigod even WLP said it could happen anywhere") and decrease some case velocity here & there. As far as 'holding Congress', it was probably OK. They're fogies and can change their damnation to somethin' new-fangled like video games - i.e., WLP gave 'em preloaded talking points and changed the subject from the yes/no on guns (or gun variants). As far as NRA recruitment, it was probably substandard, as I said above: 80% of our younger shooters play Call of Duty on their Xbox and are perfectly nice people. Their reaction will be one of cross-generational puzzlement if this tack keeps being pushed. Wholly missing is SSRI meds discussion.
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Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. Last edited by bwiese; 01-11-2013 at 5:07 PM.. |
#55
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What data is he basing his position on, or is it just how he 'thinks' the score is? I have no problem with people having conflicting opinions, but I don't like it when I can't see the evidence they're using to back them up. |
#56
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The NRA's position on video game violence is completely wrong. The majority of games kids play nowdays are actually less likely to make them go on a crazy rampage because of the switch from single player to multiplayer games. Now, instead of games which simulated massacres and very dark and satanic imagery, we have multiplayer games where you have to work as a team mostly with your friends which greatly lightens the mood for most gamers. Add completely ridiculous game physics (like shotgun spread) and you have a hilariously unrealistic world.
I actually like doom and duke nukem, but after a while of playing it, I get tired and sickened of such games. For me it's like clearing my home by myself, I start jumping a shadows. The Dark Knight was really crazy and had senseless violence but overall movies switched from actually having a story to superhero bambi movies. Basically it involves a superhero who can never be killed. He completely lays waste to the enemies (which are stereotypical "evil people") and walks out in sunglasses trying to be cool. +1 if you band a bunch of superheros together. How is these movies cause shootings? All people (even gun owners) love to lay blame on things despite the fact that those things have been proven to not cause violence. |
#57
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As it is, no that's not what I meant. Gura needs to stick to 2A civil rights focus with the courts, while LaPierre needs to stick to pressuring congress critters to support and uphold 2A civil rights and be the representative for people like us.
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www.FirearmReviews.net |
#58
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I'm not generally a fan of the war on drugs (even though I've never had the slightest interest in using them), but I do think that SSRIs especially when prescribed for off-label uses in kids need to be looked at with more caution. I am sure they are very useful drugs to people who need them, but given things like Serotonin syndrome, interactions with street drugs, etc... when physicians dose patients, they be sure the cure is not worse than the decease for those specific patients. |
#59
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If you want to live in a free society where people can have guns and play video games and listen to rock music and don't have to worry about being locked away in a mental hospital for making doodles as teenagers, tragedies like Newtown are going to happen. They cannot be stopped. Arming teachers is a dumb idea because, as Gene Hoffman explained a week or two ago, presenting guns as the solution to everything is just as lame as insisting guns cause all the problems. A lot of folks around here like to say, "Freedom is not free." I am not sure they really recognize what that means. The cost of freedom is the occasional Newtown, the occasional Charles Whitman. The only places where these things don't happen is in police states. I don't think I am alone when I say I'd rather be represented by Alan Gura, on the evidence of Gura's and La Pierre's response to Newtown.
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#60
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Not this Dave Grossman again.
He is NOT the authority on "video game induced violence". Unless I suppose you also believe Brady is the authority on "gun violence". And to save some time, don't bother quoting Jack Thompson either. Quote:
Some people still don't seem to understand these simple forms of causal fallacies. Here are some examples: -100% of prisoners drank milk when they were young. Thus milk causes you to commit crimes. -Most of the mass murderers used firearms. Thus guns kill people. Sometimes I really wish we could mandate critical thinking/logic classes in schools. Because most people seem to be in desperate need of that skill. Quote:
You know how pro-gun people like to say, "hey, 80 million gun owners didn't go out and shoot someone today." Guess what? The vast majority of video game players didn't go out and wreck carnage today either. It's amazing to me how pro-gun people can be so incapable of reflecting on their own actions in respect to other liberties. Firearm rights isn't the only liberty that exists, and no one benefits from such myopia. |
#61
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re: the violence aspect of video games and movies. I wish people would understand that there's likely a vast difference between how a normal, rational, sane person responds to a culture awash in violence, and how a mentally unstable lunatic might respond to it. Since the truly unstable are relatively rare in our society, the chances of the increase in their violent actions showing up in a statistically meaningful way is low.
At the end of the day, I think the mass gun free zone shootings are a combination of a popular culture that glorifies violence, a video game culture that desensitizes the mentally unstable towards violence, and the proliferation of firearms. Yet I would not change our popular culture, tone down video games, or reduce the availability of firearms. Instead, I think the right answer is to get rid of "come shoot me zones." If that makes me crazy like a LaPierre, so be it.
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Proud to belong to the NRA Members' Council of Santa Clara County Disclaimer: All opinions are entirely my own. |
#62
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Randy, do you know what you and Lt Col Grossman are starting to sound like?
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Last edited by Mitch; 01-11-2013 at 5:18 PM.. |
#63
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A more reliable way of detecting emerging signs of craziness is looking at whether the person has friends, whether the person has been bullied, the person's family, and external pressures like schoolwork... etc. These do much more than movies and video games because everybody knows that movies and video games aren't real. But these issues are real. The reason I think games and shootings have been related was during a time when games were single player and thus used by solitary people hiding from the real world.
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#64
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There is a ton of research on video games and movies and whether or not they make those who play/watch them more violent.
And none of those studies have proven that kids were more violent because they played video games. In other words, there is ZERO scientific evidence that Call of Duty makes players more violent or susceptible to go postal on their classmates or co-workers. Are movies and video games more graphic and more violent than they used to be? Sure. But let's not forget kids in the past were exposed to a lot more real life violence than today's kids. Domestic violence was common and seldom punished or even condemned. Fighting was considered a manly way to settle disputes. People would take kids to hangings and lynchings. Racism, sexism and homophobia were not just common place, they were an accepted norm in most communities. So let's not reminisce on the good old times here. Violence in video games and movies is a red herring.
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WTB: French & Finnish firearms. WTS: raw honey, tumbled .45 ACP brass, stupid cat. |
#65
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How about the full video be posted instead of just one clip:
http://www.cato.org/events/living-gu...cond-amendment |
#66
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Gura has become something of a cultural folk hero to a lot of people in the gun rights movement. He's also becoming something of a gun rights ambassador. He should keep these points in mind when he speaks in public. Quote:
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Agreed.
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Proud to belong to the NRA Members' Council of Santa Clara County Disclaimer: All opinions are entirely my own. |
#67
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Not a single mind in America was changed by La Pierre's statement. The NRA base cheered; NRA skeptics remained skeptical. And more than a handful of NRA members became skeptics too.
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#68
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I'm grateful for BOTH the NRA and Mr. Gura.
Because of the former, I've still got my guns despite a great many politicians who would rather I didn't. Because of the latter, I believe there's a pretty good chance the next generation won't lose their gun rights. |
#69
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Making guns illegal is as stupid as making drugs or prostitution illegal. |
#70
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Or, at least, they didn't. Maybe they do now. It's not looking like it, though...
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The Constitution is not "the Supreme Law of the Land, except in the face of contradicting law which has not yet been overturned by the courts". It is THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND, PERIOD. You break your oath to uphold the Constitution if you don't refuse to enforce unadjudicated laws you believe are Unconstitutional. The real world laughs at optimism. And here's why. |
#71
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What we need are people who can talk to those on the fence, or those willing to listen - and there are plenty of those. We won't win this either by making it political. We need to bridge a cultural gap.
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WTB: French & Finnish firearms. WTS: raw honey, tumbled .45 ACP brass, stupid cat. |
#72
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Is violence in the media and video games responsible for increased violence in our society? Should we ban violent games? No and no.
Everything is rated for an intended audience. You can't buy a mature rated game or movie if you are not of the proper age. So why do I hear screaming 13 year old children (kicking me ***) on call of duty? Because their parents don't pay any attention to their children. I grew up with video games being a major part of my recreational activities and it continues to be and always will. I wasn't allowed to play grand theft auto or even Tekken when I lived with my mom and pop. Maybe its because I was adopted by a very old couple (65 and 74 at the time). Simply put, if a child reenacts something they saw on TV, its the parents fault for exposing them to content they don't fully understand. Video games and movies are not anymore to blame than firearms. Society is, spend time with your kids and your community. And before anyone says it, yes I am a father and my daughter is young. She only needs to see something once or twice to pick it up. Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD |
#73
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Anyone who calls a video game a "murder simulator" has no more credibility than someone who calls an AR owner a "baby killer".
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#74
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Bill, I think you're forgetting a hidden amendment to the constitution: "The Profits of Big Pharma being necessary to election contributions, The Right to Prescribe Paxil to Teenagers shall not be infringed."
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#75
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This is a case of Alan Gura preaching to the converted. While many (though probably not all) gun owners consider gun ownership to be a civil rights issue, it should be obvious to everyone that the Democratic Party, the press, and a large section of the public do not. Or they think that if it is a civil right, it should be curtailed. The NRA was right to conclude that the fear-mongering being stirred up by the Democratic Party and the press ("For the children!!!") must be dealt with head on, hence their proposal for armed guards in schools. One should never underestimate most people's sense of practicality and lack of regard for the constitution. A constitutional or first principles argument is not going to persuade anybody in the grip of "For the children!!!"
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#76
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Is there any research on the effect of violent video games on people who are mentally ill? Just like we wouldn't give a gun to someone who is unfit, is it wise to have someone who is unfit play violent games or would there be no effect at all? If there was a correlation, that would bring up 1A restriction question with no way to do anything yet what the Gov is trying to do with guns; ban them all. Whether 2A or 1A, that is the cost of freedom. The problem is when you have 300 million, small percentages, such as .0001 % of people is still a big enough number |
#77
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Overall I'm not comfortable on a "war on the mentally ill" either. It's certainly wrong that Rikers Island is currently the biggest mental institution in the country, but we have to remember that they're more likely to be victims of violent crime than its perpetrators. If your goal is to decrease violence, then stigmatizing the mentally ill further than they already are and scaring them away from treatment (especially the people who need treatment the most), will actually increase violence and work against you. |
#78
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The big issue I have is that the video game players ARE the future of the NRA. These guys play the games, then they buy and shoot the same guns in real life. This is a demographic that the NRA just threw under the bus. This would be tantamount to abandoning the hunters or high power rifle competitors.
Not a wise move. Regards, SwissFluCase
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"We don't discuss the governor's arsenal in detail" - Brown spokeswoman Elizabeth Ashford |
#79
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The big issue I have is that the video game players ARE the future of the NRA. These guys play the games, then they buy and shoot the same guns in real life. This is a demographic that the NRA just threw under the bus. This would be tantamount to abandoning the hunters or high power rifle competitors.
Not a wise move. Regards, SwissFluCase
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"We don't discuss the governor's arsenal in detail" - Brown spokeswoman Elizabeth Ashford |
#80
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And everyone knows I'm very supportive of NRA politically, but pooches got screwed here by "NIH" (Not Invented Here) syndrome. Quote:
He's less of "gunnie" than "this is the key civil right I happen to be working on now". Quote:
Younger folk of today who are shooters - and prob of whom 80% play CoD, ModernWarfare, etc on their XBox - and who are not organization 'joiners' - and hearing they're bad people. That's akin to a crust 60 yr old telling a 20 year old why wingtips are cool. Quote:
We think there may be a time-lag/setback in cases that otherwise might rise more quickly. Lanza should certainly be blamed, but we don't have to fan highly-observed PR statements under their nose. Bottom line, Wayne could have been better served by staff who should have called external PR marketing people to tune a message. I will say the cops-in-school stuff did seem to resonate in general newspaper commentary forum. It may have served as a useful 'subject diverter'.
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Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. Last edited by bwiese; 01-11-2013 at 6:50 PM.. |
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