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Gunsmithing & How To Pro, Amateur & WECSOG and Tutorials, Guides & OLL Build Instructions |
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#4
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The website says 6061 T6 aluminum. If they exceed their goal enough they might go with 7075 T6.
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#6
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I just want to ask (seriously, just asking for information) why you seem to dislike this idea so much. Am I reading too much into your post? If so, I'm sorry. I really am just curious. |
#9
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Having extensive knowledge and background in this specific area of manufacture, $25 for an 80% lower out of actual 6061 or 7075 aluminum is virtually impossible. The 6061 blank alone is more than half of that cost, approx. $17, so you are leaving yourself $8 to cover all of the overhead?
- tool cost / replacement / general maintenance of tools and machine - electricity (CNCs use a lot of it) - rent - staffing / programmer / machinist etc - coolant and other consumables - insurance costs And so on. $25 is a pipe dream IMO, buyer beware.
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A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. – Lucius Annaeus Seneca, c. 4BC - 65AD.
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#10
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Trust me, as someone that preordered one of those Red Rock Ord BCGs don't do it. They have the tooling in already and they are having trouble getting **** out. Stick to known companies and you won't get burnt.
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#12
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#13
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^ +1 the time and material needed to make theses cost more than what they are selling them for. If they are in the business to lose money, that's fine but to me this is as fishy as eating 1 week old egg baked in the sun. and so far i haven't heard anything from anyone saying they got their lower from these startup websites yet.
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ehhh |
#16
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Rguns has raw forgings for $20 aka "0% receivers". No machining operations have been performed. There's much less metal than there would be in box containing the finished dimensions (all of which you loose when making the finished product) so the forging can cost less than the rectangular block of aluminum which would become a billet receiver. Here's what you get (clamping pads not included): Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 05-14-2013 at 6:15 PM.. |
#20
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Sent an email to Art.....no response.
Even at 95% scam level, with an email response I may have bought one.
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#24
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I also take a look at the nature of the business, reasonable longevity of the business, competition, and sales projections. I'm not seeing anything about the business, nor info on the 2 principals. -hanko
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True wealth is time. Time to enjoy life. Life's journey is not to arrive safely in a well preserved body, but rather to slide in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "holy schit...what a ride"!! Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in. Mark Twain A man's soul can be judged by the way he treats his dog. Charles Doran |
#25
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Realistically it's unlikely to get finished unless you have access (as in you can spend days there unsupervised, not pay $60 for a 10 minute build party slot) to a machine shop and want to spend some quality time there or sell it off to some one who does. You only want to buy some if you're looking for a fun metal working project or paperweights for your desk.
$300 is reasonable for OK high speed steel tooling you'll be unlikely to use on other projects when you use long tools to cut the magazine well from one side (instead of sending it out to be cut with a $10,000 broach or EDM; you can probably do either for $50-$75) and do the buffer tower on a mill (other than a nice CNC setup with a thread mill), although you can subtract $70-$80 if you cut the buffer thread on a lathe instead of tapping it. Like I said it's a fun project and the results take up much less space than other things I build like cars, stereo speakers, other furniture - you don't do it to save money. Without a 4th (A) axis you're looking at 11-13 setups versus 2 for a receiver just shy of the ATF "readily converted to a firearm" line and marketed as 80 or 95% depending on who's selling it. With it's still three setups and probably 5-8 times the machine time (it's hard to separate out milling time from setup after the fact). Guys doing build parties might do OK financially on 0% receivers at $300-$400 a slot which is obviously not viable given the cost of mass-produced "80%" parts (a bunch can be fastened to pallets for one step which get swapped automatically without operator intervention). As a one off exercise I suspect you could break four figures. Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 05-14-2013 at 7:53 PM.. |
#27
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This is $25 for a donation for a chance that hey get enough money to meet their goals. I am not sure that they are commited to follow through if they do not make their goals. Many companies have used rockethub and kickstarter to start their companies sucessfully. The initial batches sometimes will be inferior and the company may break even or lose money. All of them do gain experience and knowledge, along with tooling, from the initial investment to make a gen2 product that they charge more for. It is very possible that they make their goal, though with 15 days left is unlikely, and these people will see a lower. It is also possible that they get nothing or crap. You decide if you want the gamble.
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#28
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I ordered four from this rockethub project. They will ship even if they don't reach the fund raising goal.
http://www.rockethub.com/25415 "05/07/13: We will be using 6061 T6 Aluminum, there is a possibility that we will able to offer 7075 T6 if we exceed our goal significantly and can make an even larger purchase of Aluminum. Keep in mind the strength needed for the use of a receiver 6061 T6 far exceeds, and overall strength of 7075 T6 is higher but most significant is the corrosion resistance not the overall strength, MilSpec Type 3 Hard Coat anodizing will resolve any corrosion differences between 6061 and 7075. Thank you for your support please let us know if you have any questions".
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Hunting with the Modern Sporting Rifle (AR-15/AR-10) Last edited by Xcountryrider; 05-14-2013 at 7:08 PM.. |
#29
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I have over 40k in a Cnc machine and tooling. There is no possible way of selling 80% forgings for 25 bucks and being able to cover my costs, unless I make a hundred thousand of them. Electricity ain't free! With the time to complete 0-80% I could make other parts that yield much more profit. If it sounds too good to be true....
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#30
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Hunting with the Modern Sporting Rifle (AR-15/AR-10) |
#31
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Forged receivers cost less than billet in terms of raw materials (you pay for every piece of swarf removed profiling a billet receiver, but nothing outside a forged shape), machine time (there's no profiling), and tool wear.
If it can't be done economically starting with a forging a billet metal (plastic or wood might work) receiver is more out of the question. FWIW the AR15 pictures for the "billet" Rockethub offering you linked appear to have started life as forgings due to details which are impossible to mill commercially (much more cutting time and wear with small tools than big ones) or at all. The anodized/not anodized versions of the "products" also appear to be photo shopped given the identical lighting. Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 05-14-2013 at 8:18 PM.. |
#34
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We shall see the point is they raise the money to buy bulk materials.
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Hunting with the Modern Sporting Rifle (AR-15/AR-10) |
#35
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Who said forgings?
Well it's cheaper than a billet in terms of time and over all cost. Go price a 7075 block vs a forging. My reasoning consists of a $13 forging when you buy 1000 of them from the forging company. There is a reason I'm not on the band wagon. If you want a nice 80 look at the cnc80 billet lowers. Tough to beat in a pre panic market. |
#36
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How do you know for sure? I read it top to bottom and don't see this guarantee/promise.
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#37
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I was looking to do this one for $100 for 4 80%, and another $50 for the jig...
http://www.rockethub.com/24272 I guess not now... |
#39
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I have been through this personally, I have manufactured 80% lowers in bulk (from billet), I have gone through every aspect of this process from start to finish, and the ONLY way this is possible is if they plan on losing a minimum of $25 per part. Any of you that want to ignore the FACTS that I am laying out about this "deal", well, you have been warned repeatedly, so I hope we don't hear you piss and moan later when this company fails miserably with your cash.
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A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. – Lucius Annaeus Seneca, c. 4BC - 65AD.
Last edited by DarkSoul; 05-17-2013 at 8:18 AM.. |
#40
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I have no no idea whether this company is an actual scam or not but, at that price, it seems to me he must be making them overseas, probably in Asia, and shipping them here. $25 for some milled 6061 from China, especially in bulk, seems totally doable. It's not that it's impossible to make them at that price, just that Americans can't compete with the manufacturing juggernaut nation. I say this knowing nothing about this company -- just speculation based on the OP.
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