2013 CA SB 53 - Deleon/Yee Ammunition purchase permits (FAILED)

[G21Shooter]

Originally Posted by prometa

The bill was amended in the assembly today. They added 6 months to the activation date, but more importantly, removed the ability for a non FFL to order ammo and have it shipped to an FFL for pickup. Now only licensed vendors can buy ammo online, period.

One step closer to an injunction I suppose.

By added 6 months to the activation date you mean we have a extra six months to buy ammo before the law takes effect(assuming it does)?

This bill needs to be stopped badly, just messed up on a lot of levels.

[javalos]

Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli

Yep. I have hunter friends who don't care that semi-autos are being restricted because they think it's not going to effect them—they don't realize there will be more and more restriction after this and the end game is to ban civilian possession and use of firearms including hunting. they also laughed about the ammo license and fingerprinting and said:"So what? No big deal."

Divided and conquered.

Hunters for the most part tend to be the most complacent thinking that their shotgun or bolt gun will be untouched....fools! The legislative terrorists that we have in Sacramento want to end gun ownership in this state by banning it or making it too expensive for us. They will pursue the issue of lead full hilt and then where will the hunters be? 6 more years till I retire and I am so out of this nanny state, meanwhile I'll fight as long as possible.

[G21Shooter]

No kidding, a lot of hunters are FUDs!

"I don't care what laws they pass, my shotgun and rifle will be okay". Wrong, try again. Next year if they get away with this current ****, they are going to classify scoped bolt action rifles as "assault sniper rifles". After that shotguns that hold over two rounds will be labeled "assault shotguns".

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by javalos

Hunters for the most part tend to be the most complacent thinking that their shotgun or bolt gun will be untouched....fools! .

BS! Generalize much?

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by G21Shooter

No kidding, a lot of hunters are FUDs!

"I don't care what laws they pass, my shotgun and rifle will be okay". Wrong, try again. Next year if they get away with this current ****, they are going to classify scoped bolt action rifles as "assault sniper rifles". After that shotguns that hold over two rounds will be labeled "assault shotguns".

Whats FUD's????? You don't know what you are talking about either.

[AceGirlsHusband]

Originally Posted by taperxz

BS! Generalize much?

I understand his sentiment. Our legislature practices incrementalism... a little bit at a time invested towards a very large, future goal.

[AceGirlsHusband]

Originally Posted by Dutch3

And this is the reason they pander to law enforcement, exempting LE from the restrictions. They plan to call in a favor from LE while being tied to the stake by the constituents they have ignored.

Maybe 911 won't be working that day.

LE is not completely exempted from all points of the ammo bill. We don't have to sign for it, BUT we don't get to order it via internet anymore, either. We're all in the same boat on that issue.

[-hanko]

Originally Posted by javalos

Hunters for the most part tend to be the most complacent thinking that their shotgun or bolt gun will be untouched....fools!

Not those with whom I hunt...nobody's complacent as to laws, and we're all in a state with a constitutional amendment as to rkba. Not to mention complete preemption.

Originally Posted by G21Shooter

No kidding, a lot of hunters are FUDs!

"I don't care what laws they pass, my shotgun and rifle will be okay". Wrong, try again. Next year if they get away with this current ****, they are going to classify scoped bolt action rifles as "assault sniper rifles". After that shotguns that hold over two rounds will be labeled "assault shotguns".

See above.

Obviously, any scoped sniper rifle can shoot right through a school, and shotguns can put hundreds of pellets in the air faster than a rifle. Keep your seat belt on, that's next on your legislature's agenda.

-hanko

[sirgrumps]

Originally Posted by -hanko

Obviously, any scoped sniper rifle can shoot right through a school, and shotguns can put hundreds of pellets in the air faster than a rifle. Keep your seat belt on, that's next on your legislature's agenda.

-hanko

The next target will be hunting rifles. They are military style sniper rifles.

[javalos]

Originally Posted by taperxz

BS! Generalize much?

If I offended a particular group, my apology's, my opinion is solely based on interaction with types of gun owners and their interests. It just seems to me that many hunters that I have chatted with have come to believe that their firearms are innocuous compared others that have handguns or shoot various types of semi-auto rifles. I warned them their their scatter guns and bolt guns are the next round of targeted firearms by the legislative terrorists in Sacramento.

[sbrad39]

what's in this bill to stop someone from going to the state line and stocking up on ammo....?

[IVC]

Originally Posted by sbrad39

what's in this bill to stop someone from going to the state line and stocking up on ammo....?

Nothing except the inconvenience. I believe there will also be workarounds with re-shipping.

[Losd619]

why would you bring this up? loose lips sink ships friend.

[advocatusdiaboli]

Originally Posted by Losd619

why would you bring this up? loose lips sink ships friend.

Agreed. You'd think the members of Calguns have no sense of OpSec at all. Sure the anties are generally ignorant of such things, but that is to be expected of leftists. We should know better. Loose lips aid the enemy and help their research for future regulations.

[SanPedroShooter]

Unions to the rescue?!

SB 53 (DeLeon) Opposed By Coalition of Labor Leaders and Organizations as It Moves to Assembly Floor

http://users.focalbeam.com/fs/distri.../daid/.preview

[advocatusdiaboli]

Originally Posted by SanPedroShooter

Unions to the rescue?!

SB 53 (DeLeon) Opposed By Coalition of Labor Leaders and Organizations as It Moves to Assembly Floor

http://users.focalbeam.com/fs/distri.../daid/.preview

They are looking out for their members—many hunt and shoot.

Unions are too often universally maligned because the abuse of some powerful ones.

At the turn of the 20th century, mine owners routinely pulled out their mules when there was danger of a cave in and let men pull and push the carts instead: mules cost money upfront to replace while men's labor can be had for less and nothing down. Unions fixed that. And child labor too and more like employer healthcare for on-the-job injuries and disability for work-relaled injuries.

Just because some unions now, flush with power, abuse it, is no reason to "throw the baby out with the bath water". Fix unions that abuse power but they still serve people.

[sbrad39]

Originally Posted by Losd619

why would you bring this up? loose lips sink ships friend.

because I want to know, and I'm not accustomed to tip-toeing or cowering in fear because of real or perceived boogeymen....last I checked communism isn't the order of the day...try as they might.....

[advocatusdiaboli]

Originally Posted by sbrad39

because I want to know, and I'm not accustomed to tip-toeing or cowering in fear because of real or perceived boogeymen....last I checked communism isn't the order of the day...try as they might.....

We are at war for our rights. It may not feel like war because there isn't any violence and won't be as it is fought in the legislatures and courts, but it's as serious a war as every has been fought on this soil. The Constitution is being assaulted by the very people who took an oath to protect it because it stands in the way of their establishing a government led by elitists who will decide what is best for you in all aspects of life, and they intend to either re-educate those who disagree on the grounds of liberty or drive them away.

So some discretion is advised lest you play into their hands.

[meaty-btz]

Originally Posted by sbrad39

because I want to know, and I'm not accustomed to tip-toeing or cowering in fear because of real or perceived boogeymen....last I checked communism isn't the order of the day...try as they might.....

Actually, their rule is the order of the day currently.

[glock_this]

Originally Posted by Losd619

why would you bring this up? loose lips sink ships friend.

Some of you guys really seriously think they don't think of these things and somehow his post is tipping them off to an earth shattering idea they never considered?

Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli

but it's as serious a war as every has been fought on this soil.

Easy with the drama, this is nothing near as awful as war, not even close.

[advocatusdiaboli]

Originally Posted by glock_this

Some of you guys really seriously think they don't think of these things and somehow his post is tipping them off to an earth shattering idea they never considered?

I guess time for an OpSec refresher: you keep lips sealed about everything no matter how innocuous. Why? 1) habits become reflex, become second-nature—and information is safe, and 2) they used our forums to re-write the assault on the bullet button to great effect and once people get in the habit of blurting things out, serious info finds it's way out.

Better to say tool little here than too much.

[glock_this]

Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli

I guess time for an OpSec refresher: you keep lips sealed about everything no matter how innocuous. Why? 1) habits become reflex, become second-nature—and information is safe, and 2) they used our forums to re-write the assault on the bullet button to great effect and once people get in the habit of blurting things out, serious info finds it's way out.

Better to say tool little here than too much.

Dude, it is a public forum. What do you really expect? Every sort of idea and topic possible is discussed here. Heck, you sit here and give some sort of funny "OpSec refresher" and you are just tipping your hands to your tactics by giving definitions in writing on the forums of how one should act. So really, if you followed your own advice, you would not even comment.

And on this actual topic at hand, a 5 year old could figure out the workaround to this law. It didn't take someone posting it here as a major revelation.

[mshill]

Originally Posted by glock_this

Some of you guys really seriously think they don't think of these things and somehow his post is tipping them off to an earth shattering idea they never considered?

^^^^^this.

I was present at the Senate Public Safety meeting where this was debated and when it was brought up the response was "so what, let them buy it in Nevada just not here without a permit."

Its not a secret.

[The Gleam]

Originally Posted by taperxz

BS! Generalize much?

Sorry. TOO LARGE of a percentage of hunters DID ignore and give in to apathy over any involvement with AB50, to my face and to the opposition itself, and that led to the first time a bolt-action rifle had been banned and declared as an "Assault Weapon" in the United States, requiring registration of the same.

I saw it first hand while trying to drum up support against AB50 at gun shows, dealers, and other gatherings, where way too often I hear "that's a crazy person's round, it should be banned" or "there is no need for such a destructive cartridge, it destroys the meat" or "you can't hunt anything in America with that round" more than once, from self-proclaimed "avid" hunters. Equally I saw the same with previous "Assault Weapon" bills and even recently concerning SB249 last year and anything BB related.

if they didn't learn this from AB50, I have no idea WHAT will teach them to not turn their heads (albeit as the Cowboy Action guys did with the SB15 that eventually became the CA Roster - so long as they could carve out their little "piece" to not be affected, they didn't care one way or the other ).

The Zumbos of the world really DO exist, unfortunately, and they are not persuaded or swayed until the knock is on THEIR door.

To say ALL hunters have no concern is a bit too broad, but I am willing to bet a large percentage of traditional bolt-action only hunters have only a 1/2-concern at best. It will be all too unfortunate too, when they are then the next in line to have their Remington 700-DM or Steyr SSG-69 rifles banned (among others) because they use a detachable mag.

[advocatusdiaboli]

Originally Posted by glock_this

Dude, it is a public forum. What do you really expect? Every sort of idea and topic possible is discussed here. Heck, you sit here and give some sort of funny "OpSec refresher" and you are just tipping your hands to your tactics by giving definitions in writing on the forums of how one should act. So really, if you followed your own advice, you would not even comment.

And on this actual topic at hand, a 5 year old could figure out the workaround to this law. It didn't take someone posting it here as a major revelation.

Right, did a 5 yo get the first BB law wrong? Yes. Did a 5 yo get the first ammo sale ban wrong? Yes. Did those 5 yos in order to make their laws better, among many things, monitor this board for suggestions and make better laws the next time? Yes.

Look use your discretion, but discretion is the better part of valor as we all know. Once people get to talking in forums, the boundaries are pushed and pushed until someone does say something of value. Why to you think Gene and others post so rarely? Me? I'd rather stay silent on my strategies and tactics than unwittingly encourage others to blurt out something of value one day and aid our enemies. That's all I am saying. You do as you wish. Ridicule the idea all you wish. I don't care.

[sbrad39]

Yea, I'm sure it's no secret....my thought is, how much is the permit and how many times are you going to have to renew it...., then how many poor and minority folks are going to be able to afford such permits...

In essence you have to have a permit to legally be in possession of ammunition...It looks like the purposeful creation of a black market...one in which, like the pseudo confiscation of weapons law they have, you can be searched and seized for the possibility of having too much ammunition or ammunition in general...more fodder for the police and prison industries. More oppression of the poor and minority communities they claim to be on the side of....

[advocatusdiaboli]

Originally Posted by sbrad39

In essence you have to have a permit to legally be in possession of ammunition....you can be searched and seized for the possibility of having too much ammunition or ammunition in general

It's a transparent ply to restrict firearms by restricting the ammunition that makes them at all useful. We'll see if that passes muster in the courts.

[kmca]

Originally Posted by sbrad39

Yea, I'm sure it's no secret....my thought is, how much is the permit and how many times are you going to have to renew it...., then how many poor and minority folks are going to be able to afford such permits...

In essence you have to have a permit to legally be in possession of ammunition...It looks like the purposeful creation of a black market...one in which, like the pseudo confiscation of weapons law they have, you can be searched and seized for the possibility of having too much ammunition or ammunition in general...more fodder for the police and prison industries. More oppression of the poor and minority communities they claim to be on the side of....

The permit shouldn't cost anything. If they put back the $24M they stole from the surplus fees

[sbrad39]

Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli

It's a transparent ply to restrict firearms by restricting the ammunition that makes them at all useful. We'll see if that passes muster in the courts.

It's more than that....because what happens if the police come to your house on a no knock warrant or something similar or CPS....and you have a large stash of ammunition that you can't show a local receipt and or not in possession of a permit....does it get confiscated, are your children removed, prison time....

And what if an elderly person living hand to mouth in a bad neighborhood can't afford the permit and jacked up prices of ammo because of taxation...to defend themselves from intruders as we have seen in the news recently....

It goes far beyond taking away your rights, it's a very foul, dangerous and oppressive law....

[sbrad39]

Originally Posted by kmca

The permit shouldn't cost anything. If they put back the $24M they stole from the surplus fees

LOL...yea, good luck with that....

[advocatusdiaboli]

Originally Posted by kmca

The permit shouldn't cost anything. If they put back the $24M they stole from the surplus fees

Yeah, and chocolate shouldn't make you fat, but guess what?

[jonc]

ummmmm

[advocatusdiaboli]

Originally Posted by jonc

ummmmm

It's from a film: Mission IMpossible III. I would have said beer, but I wanted to quote ;-) Maybe they needed it to be PG-13. It is meant to imply something which we don't like but it inevitable.

[AceGirlsHusband]

Originally Posted by sbrad39

Yea, I'm sure it's no secret....my thought is, how much is the permit and how many times are you going to have to renew it...., then how many poor and minority folks are going to be able to afford such permits...

....

What I've read in the verbage so far is up to $50 for original submission (including prints), then $14 for each 2-year renewal.

[advocatusdiaboli]

Originally Posted by AceGirlsHusband

What I've read in the verbage so far is up to $50 for original submission (including prints), then $14 for each 2-year renewal.

Key operative word being "original". Final fees may be different and fees go up.

And why do they want your prints? They already have mine (as veteran—if they can find them). But I wouldn't give my DNA voluntarily—evidence can be abused and implicate innocent people. Better not let stray sued brass out of your site which might implicate you if reloaded.

[The Gleam]

Originally Posted by AceGirlsHusband

What I've read in the verbage so far is up to $50 for original submission (including prints), then $14 for each 2-year renewal.

People will simply stock up in high volume when on occasional trips outside of CA - so who benefits from this? Nobody. All this does is reduce revenue to small businesses in CA, and further reduce taxes CA will collect, because CA will be losing purchases to other states on something that people will buy anyway. They'll just do it in bulk, somewhere else. yet another stupid stunt in how CA is driving businesses to leave CA. Hell, I'll be inclined to set up an ammo and reloading shop right across the board in either Nevada or AZ.

It won't stop crime, it won't stop buying of ammo. And it won't stop crime from buying ammo.

In fact, I bet 10-to-1 you will see an INCREASE in the amount of ammo CA people buy (again, all outside of CA) and increase how much they stock-pile, merely because when they do, they will do it in high-volume spending to tide them over until the next need for ammo, or so they don't have to make any little purchases in CA. I know I will. AS it is now I already buy most of my ammo from sources OUTSIDE of CA. Ban my internet puchasing ability, I'll simply buy it all in gobs a few trips to NV or AZ every few months. Regulate ammo purchasing, and I'll be buying NONE in CA - that's one further less trip to buy ammo that I would also spend, say buying gear, optics, cases, gun leaning materials, grips, stocks, parts, whatever at the store where I would have been inclined to buy ammo.

What happens then? Guys with surplus sell off their ammo to "Joe" down the street anyway, who they think is a good neighbor; but little do they know he is a convicted violent felon. More to go around will lead to a "black market" of sorts and an increase in burglaries/theft - where one never existed.

And it will entice an increase in criminals to particularly seek out the homes of suspected gun-owners and shooting-sports enthusiasts of whom they suspect will also have large reserves of ammo DUE to such ridiculous purchase-control laws.

Unintended consequences will be rampant with this one.

[advocatusdiaboli]

Originally Posted by The Gleam

so who benefits from this? Nobody. All this does is reduce revenue to small businesses in CA,

You correct about workarounds and unintended consequences, but you are wrong about the above. They *want* to hurt certain businesses by making it very expensive and difficult to stay in business: firearms and ammunitions retailers. the fewer they are, the harder it is for us to buy firearms and ammunition and the more expensive it will be. All part of their plan.

[sbrad39]

Originally Posted by AceGirlsHusband

What I've read in the verbage so far is up to $50 for original submission (including prints), then $14 for each 2-year renewal.

So it's close to $100.00 just to get that initial permit 50 for the permit 38 for the prints....plus ammo....why would anyone do that....?

[advocatusdiaboli]

Originally Posted by sbrad39

So it's close to $100.00 just to get that initial permit 50 for the permit 38 for the prints....plus ammo....why would anyone do that....?

Few would today...but...I am sure you can think of how they might force it on us with subsequent legislation without straining yourself.

[BigStiCK]

Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli

You correct about workarounds and unintended consequences, but you are wrong about the above. They *want* to hurt certain businesses by making it very expensive and difficult to stay in business: firearms and ammunitions retailers. the fewer they are, the harder it is for us to buy firearms and ammunition and the more expensive it will be. All part of their plan.

Yup.