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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #81  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:11 AM
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Celebration Party at my house tonight:http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=175327
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  #82  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:11 AM
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I'm late to the party, was returning the rental car and dealing with work issues. I still have to go thru it completely but it's a bell-ringer.

And what an excellent way to wake up the day after the Big Reno Show!

The result is a tad sideways (at least for the Nordykes) and may have
been a less probable outcome than we predicted - but this result may well have helped us.


... Hickman dead,
... Fresno Rifle dead,
...
We therefore conclude that the right to keep and bear
arms is “deeply rooted in this Nation’s history and tradition.”
Colonial revolutionaries, the Founders, and a host of commentators
and lawmakers living during the first one hundred years of the Republic
all insisted on the fundamental nature of the right. It has long been
regarded as the “true palladium of liberty.” Colonists relied on it to
assert and to win their independence, and the victorious Union sought
to prevent a recalcitrant South from abridging it less than a century
later. The crucial role this deeply rooted right has played in our
birth and history compels us to recognize that it is indeed
fundamental, that it is necessary to the Anglo-American conception
of ordered liberty that we have inherited. We are therefore persuaded
that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment incorporates
the Second Amendment and applies it against the states and local governments."
The Second Amendment is ALIVE in California.

Start the bulldozers gentlmen, we have some dismantlement work ahead of us.

Note that the opposition (Alameda) CANNOT appeal - they "won"; they cannot do en banc, etc.

*WE* can appeal, because "we lost" (a la Nordkyes) - but even thru course of appeals, INCORPORATION OF THE 2nd STILL STANDS, regardless of the fate of the Nordyke gunshow.

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Last edited by bwiese; 04-20-2009 at 10:18 AM..
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  #83  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Soldier415 View Post
Yes, that right there is chock full of win.

Incidentally, I just woke everyone in my hooch up by yelling "**** YEAH!!!!!!" very loudly
Heh, my heart just skipped a few beats. But now I'm going to run around screaming "**** YEAH!" and explaining to everyone I see the Nordyke decision, and pretty much everything that has to do with it, until they start looking at me weird and backing away slowly. (Sometimes (EDIT: Always), I hate being the only gun enthusiast i know IRL)
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  #84  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
If so, where in Heller was it proclaimed, right to 2A in the home only?
Technically, that was the only issue considered by SCOTUS in the Heller case.
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  #85  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:14 AM
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How pissed off is Team Billy Jack going to be when they have no more business? Well I guess they will be quite busy for a while, but they have always seems to take the stance that they did not want shall issue.
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  #86  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenLee View Post
Bill and Gene please tell this laymen (me) that this is as good a news as I believe it to be.........Please.
They're busy picking up the kegs.
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In Pennsylvania Your permit to carry concealed is called a License to carry fire arms. Other states call it a CCW. In New Jersey it's called a crime.
Discretionary Issue is the new Separate but Equal.
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  #87  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by GenLee View Post
Bill and Gene please tell this laymen (me) that this is as good a news as I believe it to be.........Please.
Right now I would guess Gene, Bill, Ben and the rest of the Board are juggling multiple phonecalls and emails with the other Pro-2A groups and Attorneys trying to both fully understand the ruling to make sure there are no hidden pitfalls and planning the next moves.

Patience everyone, this looks like a serious win but one with casualties (the Nordyke's).
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  #88  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by PatriotnMore View Post
Judge Gould: "Third, while the Second Amendment thus stands as a protection against both external threat and internal tyranny, the recognition of the individual’s right in the Second Amendment, and its incorporation by the Due Process Clause against the states, is not inconsistent with the reasonable regulation of weaponry. All weapons are not “arms” within the meaning of the Second Amendment, so, for example, no individual could sensibly argue that the Second Amendment gives them a right to have nuclear weapons or chemical weapons in their home for self-defense. Also, important governmental interests will justify reasonable regulation of rifles and handguns, and the problem for our courts will be to define, in the context of particular regulation by the states and municipalities, what is reasonable and permissible and what is unreasonable and offensive to the Second Amendment."

Trouble ahead, I fear how they may rule on this. They can affirm the 2nd, and cut us off at the feet with a draconian ruling.
Yeah, but what I like about Gould's concurring opinion is that he does not just define 2A rights as being principally about self and home defense as the majority does but includes defense against foreign invaders and even against a tyrannical government. You may be able to ban AR's or AK's as not being necessary for home or self defense but it is a much tougher argument when the RKBA is to defend against foreign invaders or even your own government.
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  #89  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
The Second Amendment is ALIVE in California.

Start the bulldozers gentlmen, we have some dismantlement work ahead of us.

Can I submit an AW application and sue if I get declined?
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  #90  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:17 AM
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Bill and Gene are either celebrating with quality Scotch (wait it's morning - make that Champagne Mimosas) and cigars; or else maybe in a huddle for the next game play; if what happened is not as good and wonderful as it seems...
In any case, I'm putting my USA Flag up on my porch, with high hopes!

Edit
:
I just saw Bill's post!
Some good subject material for Bill's next week's speaking engagement in Santa Cruz, I'd say.
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  #91  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by xxdabroxx View Post
How pissed off is Team Billy Jack going to be when they have no more business? Well I guess they will be quite busy for a while, but they have always seems to take the stance that they did not want shall issue.
There will be plenty of gun laws for them to challenge, they'll just have to work on the other 16,999 for a change.
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In Pennsylvania Your permit to carry concealed is called a License to carry fire arms. Other states call it a CCW. In New Jersey it's called a crime.
Discretionary Issue is the new Separate but Equal.
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  #92  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:19 AM
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Can I submit an AW application and sue if I get declined?
Its been done.
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  #93  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:19 AM
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I'm excited that the 2A is incorporated, but I'm very troubled that the court seems hung up on the idea that we only have a right to arms for self-defense in our homes. If we can't move recognition of the right past our front door, then OC and CCW will be dead and buried in this state.

I'd have been a lot happier if the court had limited it's opinion to saying that the Alameda ordinances don't infringe on the right to self-defense (and leave the constraint in the home out of it). As it is, I fear we'll have to take a trip all the way back to SCOTUS in order to convince lower courts that the right to arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense exists generally throughout society, and not just specifically in our homes.
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  #94  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:20 AM
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OMG!!!!!! OMG!!!! OMG!!!! OMG!!!!



So I wonder if this means that the Nordykes can come back around in a few years after we have a few more wins under our belt... :-P
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  #95  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:20 AM
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I call dibs on the tears of Allison.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM
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  #96  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:21 AM
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I was thinking about this. Since the county won, they can't appeal the decision. If the decision actually incorporates the 2A, that might well be a good thing.
This was my immediate though. I hope it holds true.
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  #97  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by bulgron View Post
I'm excited that the 2A is incorporated, but I'm very troubled that the court seems hung up on the idea that we only have a right to arms for self-defense in our homes. If we can't move recognition of the right past our front door, then OC and CCW will be dead and buried in this state.

I'd have been a lot happier if the court had limited it's opinion to saying that the Alameda ordinances don't infringe on the right to self-defense (and leave the constraint in the home out of it). As it is, I fear we'll have to take a trip all the way back to SCOTUS in order to convince lower courts that the right to arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense exists generally throughout society, and not just specifically in our homes.
Did you notice they addressed Hickman on its own before getting to anything else?
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In Pennsylvania Your permit to carry concealed is called a License to carry fire arms. Other states call it a CCW. In New Jersey it's called a crime.
Discretionary Issue is the new Separate but Equal.
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  #98  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrayWolf09 View Post
Yeah, but what I like about Gould's concurring opinion is that he does not just define 2A rights as being principally about self and home defense as the majority does but includes defense against foreign invaders and even against a tyrannical government. You may be able to ban AR's or AK's as not being necessary for home or self defense but it is a much tougher argument when the RKBA is to defend against foreign invaders or even your own government.

Excellent point, I sometimes see the glass half empty on 2A issues. I sometimes feel like the abused child which reels from the hand, even tho its there to help.
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Old 04-20-2009, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by yellowfin View Post
Page 8 & 9:


Hickman v Block STONE DEAD by direct action, no further room to argue. CCW discriminatory issue now no longer has court backing, and is declared irreconcilable with Heller.
So what does this mean in the scheme of things. Can they still regulate CCW? Does a person still need a license to carry? And what about loaded open carry?
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Old 04-20-2009, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulgron View Post
I'm excited that the 2A is incorporated, but I'm very troubled that the court seems hung up on the idea that we only have a right to arms for self-defense in our homes. If we can't move recognition of the right past our front door, then OC and CCW will be dead and buried in this state.

I'd have been a lot happier if the court had limited it's opinion to saying that the Alameda ordinances don't infringe on the right to self-defense (and leave the constraint in the home out of it). As it is, I fear we'll have to take a trip all the way back to SCOTUS in order to convince lower courts that the right to arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense exists generally throughout society, and not just specifically in our homes.
I am glad someone else is addressing a concern here on that exact issue. Heller was quoted as the definer in the issue of home defense only, and I did not read that in Heller.
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Old 04-20-2009, 10:25 AM
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waiting on the Calguns fondation to explain. It's Greek to me.
I'm Greek and I don't even understand it fully..
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  #102  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulgron View Post
I'm excited that the 2A is incorporated, but I'm very troubled that the court seems hung up on the idea that we only have a right to arms for self-defense in our homes. If we can't move recognition of the right past our front door, then OC and CCW will be dead and buried in this state.

I'd have been a lot happier if the court had limited it's opinion to saying that the Alameda ordinances don't infringe on the right to self-defense (and leave the constraint in the home out of it). As it is, I fear we'll have to take a trip all the way back to SCOTUS in order to convince lower courts that the right to arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense exists generally throughout society, and not just specifically in our homes.
From memory, I believe language in Heller explains that the RKBA is applicable in cases of confrontation, thus in my opinion is not just applicable at home. The 2A appears to be binding now, and does not say that it is only valid at home. The 1A is not only valid in your home, why should the 2A be?
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Old 04-20-2009, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulgron View Post
I'm excited that the 2A is incorporated, but I'm very troubled that the court seems hung up on the idea that we only have a right to arms for self-defense in our homes. If we can't move recognition of the right past our front door, then OC and CCW will be dead and buried in this state.

I'd have been a lot happier if the court had limited it's opinion to saying that the Alameda ordinances don't infringe on the right to self-defense (and leave the constraint in the home out of it). As it is, I fear we'll have to take a trip all the way back to SCOTUS in order to convince lower courts that the right to arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense exists generally throughout society, and not just specifically in our homes.
Thats not really an issue. Heller was specifically about guns in the home. So, that's what the court was referring to. Heller was not a limitation on your right to keep and bear arms only in your home; that was what the case was about. The key part is that the SCOTUS mentioned in the ruling that keeping and bearing arms went together. Essentially, it is ridiculous for the state to assert that the 2nd Amendment only allows you to protect yourself in your home.
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Old 04-20-2009, 10:26 AM
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So what does this mean in the scheme of things. Can they still regulate CCW? Does a person still need a license to carry? And what about loaded open carry?
i think this might mean... gun prices are not dropping in CA like i hoped it would
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Old 04-20-2009, 10:26 AM
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From memory, I believe language in Heller explains that the RKBA is applicable in cases of confrontation, thus in my opinion is not just applicable at home. The 2A appears to be binding now, and does not say that it is only valid at home. The 1A is not only valid in your home, why should the 2A be?
Correct.
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Old 04-20-2009, 10:27 AM
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WOOOOOOOHOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  #107  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:28 AM
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Did you notice they addressed Hickman on its own before getting to anything else?
CCW BABY!!!!!
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  #108  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:29 AM
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I am seriously about to cry right now, both for incorporation and for the Nordykes. However, I am hopeful that the Nordykes can still kick some *** later on on different grounds!

I just texted a bunch of people including my brother, who is down in Ecuador right now. This is going to be FARKING AWESOME, I can hardly stand it! I am so happy right now that I can hardly contain myself.

WOOOOOO HOOOO!
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Old 04-20-2009, 10:30 AM
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So what does this mean in the scheme of things. Can they still regulate CCW? Does a person still need a license to carry? And what about loaded open carry?
It means they can't deny you a CCW anymore and get away with it in court. No more thugocracy by sheriffs.
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In Pennsylvania Your permit to carry concealed is called a License to carry fire arms. Other states call it a CCW. In New Jersey it's called a crime.
Discretionary Issue is the new Separate but Equal.
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Old 04-20-2009, 10:31 AM
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I think i'm going to go pick up my CCW application today.

Good Cause Statement: 2nd F-ing Amendment, biatches.
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Old 04-20-2009, 10:31 AM
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Purpose Donation
amount Total
CGN Foundation - Offensive legal activism

Reference: post-heller
$50.00 $50.00



Come on guys, pile it on them!
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Old 04-20-2009, 10:34 AM
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Discussion here in case anyone's interested: http://www.tinychat.com/znpnz
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Old 04-20-2009, 10:34 AM
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It means they can't deny you a CCW anymore and get away with it in court. No more thugocracy by sheriffs.
Cool! What about the firearms roster and Roberti-Roos? Since most of those firearms are commonly used nationwide, how does that settle with this. And what about Rock and Roll?
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Old 04-20-2009, 10:35 AM
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Discussion here in case anyone's interested: http://www.tinychat.com/znpnz

Better yet: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/javachat.php
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Also dont worry if u have never built one once you go to a build party you will know everything and have a perfect functioning rifle.
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  #115  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:36 AM
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THE SECOND AMENDMENT WON TODAY!

My phone is ringing off the hook and we're starting to try to pull together what to do tonight.

Here is the situation:

1. The Second Amendment applies to all states, counties and cities in the 9th Circuit including California.

2. We "lost." It sucks for Don and the Nordykes in the short term. However! We control the appeals process! We get to choose to petition for Cert with SCOTUS. It's too soon to have a prediction on what happens but I can tell you this. We don't have to worry about the antis trying to stall the application of an Incorporated Fundamental Right To Keep and Bear Arms!

Please only unloaded open carry in groups. Let's bring these challenges in the right order.

Second order immediate effects:

1. I'll be making sure OAL is aware of this on the petitions we have pending there.

2. Most every anti-gun bill in Sacramento now faces real constitutional arguments against it for the first time in 20 years. Think about writing letters again on these issues!

PARTY! Just please don't drink and drive tonight!

-Gene
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  #116  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:37 AM
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I recieved word about the ruling by telephone about half an hour ago. And its now sinking in.

While the Nordykes did take one for the team as was mentioned pages back, this marks the commencement of a new era in California. It is now time to go to work- get your hard hat out start chipping away at the laws that have inhibited our 2A.


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Old 04-20-2009, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiki View Post
Its been done.

A little info please...
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Old 04-20-2009, 10:37 AM
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And this isn't just for us. As bad as our CCW situation is, it's even worse in Hawaii, Guam and Saipan, and this ruling will let them have a shot in Federal court on those issues. Cool! I get to carry next time I visit Hawaii!
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Old 04-20-2009, 10:39 AM
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After speaking with Bill and affirming my joyous assumptions of what I was reading..................WWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTTTTTTTTTTTT!

A big thanks to the Nordyke's, may there be a win somewhere in your future. You make us all proud to be associated with you.
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  #120  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
Please only unloaded open carry in groups. Let's bring these challenges in the right order.
So does this mean you think those of use who were waiting should now go for it ?
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