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Old 11-17-2017, 3:25 PM
DonaldBabbett DonaldBabbett is offline
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Exclamation Trophy hunting controversy found on Craigslist.

https://forums.craigslist.org/?forumID=26


< LittleDogComeHome > 2017-11-17 03:03 says, "An old male animal makes an impressive trophy and can't breed anyway. It will harm the younger, healthier members of the endangered species through aggressive attacks and ironically speed up the extinction process. The old fellow with massive horns, tusks, body size, antlers or manes is targeted and killed, through selective wildlife management, for the good of the whole species. These elderly males would die a horrible death in nature anyway if it weren't for deep-pocketed sportsmen with guns. The sport hunters generate the handsome revenues for game wardens to save a species from poachers by killing those old, non-reproductive but magnificent males. Makes perfect sense to me now that everything is explained."

< Catnipcomic1 > 2017-11-17 07:51, says, " I still don't see the need to kill for a trophy. Leaving the rest of the body to rot, disturbing the group dynamics of the local animals (many OLD animals are still functioning in their environment) and you know darn well no hunter goes for the old ones, they want the mature adult in the prime of life.

< britvic > 2017-11-17 10:16, says, " If you have to cull do it humanely, don't just give some limp dick a gun and let him possibly maim the animal and cause undue pain. Maybe they should be shot and their heads hung on the wall as a trophy."

< LittleDogComeHome > 2017-11-17 11:37, says, " well, the game wardens have to be paid and trophy hunt tags are a terrific revenue builder a single special trophy bull elephant tag could be sold for 1 million American dollars and there are the Forbes 500 types who would pay that in a heartbeat! game wardens are vital to protect an endangered species against poachers in sub-Saharan Africa you sure are not going to be able to collect taxes for wildlife management from a bunch of poor, tribal village people and rich people are not going to be generous with their wallets over in Safari-land unless there is something exciting to mount on the wall/ camera safaris sure don't generate the kinds of funds to protect animals/ the bottom line in protecting any species is MONEY"

< LittleDogComeHome > 2017-11-17 11:48, says, "the practical solution is to let the rich man with the gun cull the herd/the game regulations will specify which specimens can be taken, they won't permit young healthy animals to be taken under severe penalties/ an educated hunter will be able to field judge an animal to accurately determine its age, whether its past its prime for breeding/there may be a requirement for a game warden to be present to authorize the taking of a specific animal by the paying hunter with a game tag after the warden himself has judged the beast and gives the SHOOT or NO-SHOOT directive: the warden could also ensure the animal is taken humanely and not merely wounded: there might also be limitations on the types of guns and ammunition used and the hunter may have to pass an expert marksman test for the hunting privilege/ a hunter who has a peashooter of a gun will surely wound an elephant and make him angry: true elephant guns and bullets should be required for lawful elephant hunting"

breathe_first > 2017-11-17 12:38, says, "One has to wonder.... What is it that is so warped in someone's psyche that they become a "sport hunter"? What is it about killing a magnificent animal with the wits and cunning to survive to a ripe old age that makes that person feel good? In fact they enjoy it so much that they are willing to spend ungodly amounts of money to do so. I just don't get it - at all. Why not travel to the area, watch and appreciate the animal and donate the money to help protect it instead of buying the right to murder it?/ One good reason not to allow such things is that in many animal societies it is the older animals that lead the herd, know where food and water are in times of drought, help keep the social order intact so the younger ones don't kill each other off by fighting constantly, etc. These are just some of the many reasons that killing off the older males DOES damage the species as a whole - especially for those species that live in herds./
Killing them makes very little sense and causes more overall harm than good."



Yes, folks, now that I have studied this much more in depth, I really don't know what to think about hunting for trophy, especially an endangered species.

This is a confusing and controversial subject. I know if something were to overpopulate as deer, the logical thing to do is thin its herd with deer tags. It is a common meat animal

with not much chance of going extinct any time soon. If the meat hunter wants to mount the legal trophy buck's head on the wall, no harm done anyway as long as meat does not got to waste.

I would only want to harvest a doe if I were to have such a rare doe tag to legally do so. It is all about the meat quality with me, not about the rack point count and spread.

What is really BEST for the endangered SPECIES, all human soft-hearted emotions aside?

Just let Mother Nature take care of these rarer animals without man's intervention?

If the animal then were to become extinct, was it nature's will anyway?
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Last edited by DonaldBabbett; 11-17-2017 at 3:38 PM..
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Old 11-17-2017, 3:27 PM
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Or why not instead of killing the endangered animals people who want to “hunt” them just donate the money they were gonna use to end their life, give the money anyways to keep the money protected. I never understood his trophy hunters get hard ons for killing elephants, giraffes, etc etc
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Old 11-17-2017, 3:42 PM
Steponmytoes Steponmytoes is offline
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can't really say that mother nature is taking care of anything when humans have either been hunting the rare animals to extinction or building cities around the rare animals or messing up the habitat in some way. I think that's where conservation comes in and although I am not a hunter, I do know that hunters are the ones getting the bills paid so that some of these rare animals won't go extinct.
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Old 11-17-2017, 3:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Steponmytoes View Post
can't really say that mother nature is taking care of anything when humans have either been hunting the rare animals to extinction or building cities around the rare animals or messing up the habitat in some way. I think that's where conservation comes in and although I am not a hunter, I do know that hunters are the ones getting the bills paid so that some of these rare animals won't go extinct.

But somebody on CL made the suggestion that killing an old, non-reproductive male may still disrupt that species' social order if it is a herd animal like an elephant or rhino.

The controversy is that an old male might get aggressive and attack the younger, breeding members of his kind and kill them off.

I's a wildlife conservation double edge sword: is it better to kill or spare this old fellow, like an elderly bull tusker or rhino?

Better asked, which is the lesser evil: killing the old bull with a rich tyro's gun under strict game warden supervision or letting him die off naturally?
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Old 11-17-2017, 4:04 PM
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Originally Posted by DDscar View Post
Or why not instead of killing the endangered animals people who want to “hunt” them just donate the money they were gonna use to end their life, give the money anyways to keep the money protected. I never understood his trophy hunters get hard ons for killing elephants, giraffes, etc etc
What an asinine suggestion. Why don't YOU just donate the money?

Who are you to tell someone else to just donate money?

It's legal, and it's not your concern.
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Old 11-17-2017, 4:07 PM
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OP why did you feel the need to start a second thread on this same topic?
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Old 11-17-2017, 4:10 PM
DonaldBabbett DonaldBabbett is offline
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OP why did you feel the need to start a second thread on this same topic?

The other thread was about the morals or ethics of killing animals by man in general.

This thread is specifically about the conservation of an endangered species or whether killing old males is the right thing to do for the herd species' overall good.

Will killing a washed-up, old male lion even harm that species since that is a pride, or social, species? Often old male African lions, having been ousted from pride life by younger male rivals, attack peoples' livestock or even prey upon village people.

I once read a thing in a book where a pack of wolves killed an elderly bull moose to BOTH feed the pack and get rid of this non-reproductive old male at the same time. Apparently, nature
does not feel that the ridding of moose herds of old bulls harms the moose social structure.

This thread poses the question, "What should man really do about protecting an endangered species if he is to do anything at all?"
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Last edited by DonaldBabbett; 11-17-2017 at 4:27 PM..
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Old 11-17-2017, 4:22 PM
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Originally Posted by DonaldBabbett View Post
But somebody on CL made the suggestion that killing an old, non-reproductive male may still disrupt that species' social order if it is a herd animal like an elephant or rhino.

The controversy is that an old male might get aggressive and attack the younger, breeding members of his kind and kill them off.

I's a wildlife conservation double edge sword: is it better to kill or spare this old fellow, like an elderly bull tusker or rhino?

Better asked, which is the lesser evil: killing the old bull with a rich tyro's gun under strict game warden supervision or letting him die off naturally?
Guess my point is that humans have already intervened by being the apex predator, building cities etc., etc. We are already affecting mother nature in so many ways that saying "let's let nature take it's course" is meaningless. By extension, that means we should kill the old fellow for the good of the herd in order to maintain a healthy population.
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Old 11-17-2017, 4:41 PM
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Originally Posted by DDscar View Post
Or why not instead of killing the endangered animals people who want to “hunt” them just donate the money they were gonna use to end their life, give the money anyways to keep the money protected. I never understood his trophy hunters get hard ons for killing elephants, giraffes, etc etc
You don't have to understand, because it's none of your business. I personally dont understand how males can call themselves men while behaving in an effeminate manner, but its not my life to live. People love to say "donate the money" or "shoot cameras, not guns", but that's not going to happen. If eco tourism was such a draw and altruism worked, none of this would even be an issue, but it doesn't. Nobody pays $150K to fly to Tanzania and look at lions. They just don't. Old animals that don't breed only use up scarce resources younger breeding age animals can use, and will either die, or cause others to die. It could not possibly be explained in any simpler terms.

And as far as the killing goes. You, me, all of us are the descendants of apex predators. Period. Hominids have been hunting and killing other species for food and resources since before we could make fire. Some of us embrace that aspect of our nature and celebrate the cultures that we came from that hunted and killed, both for meat and for sport. For some of us, the nature of man is still intact.
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Old 11-17-2017, 4:51 PM
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The argument that the carcass just sits there and rots is a huge load of crap too. Lets assume that the hunter takes the trophy and leaves the meat behind.The scavengers and probably even predators will come and make short work of the carcass. However my understanding is that none of it actually goes to waste (as in not used for human consumption) since the locals use it to their benefit as well. Or would you prefer they raise western livestock over there further destroying the eco system so that you can feel comfortable about their meat consumption.
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Old 11-17-2017, 5:56 PM
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Oh yay. More nonsensical drivel.
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Old 11-17-2017, 5:59 PM
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TLDR. Feel free to post just a link next time.

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Old 11-17-2017, 5:59 PM
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Originally Posted by DonaldBabbett View Post
Yes, folks, now that I have studied this much more in depth...
...by looking at craigslist?
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Old 11-17-2017, 6:33 PM
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Old 11-18-2017, 9:16 AM
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Why do you keep posting this crap in the camping and hiking section?
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Old 11-18-2017, 10:20 AM
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Warthog summed it up nicely.
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Old 11-18-2017, 1:50 PM
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Oh boy.........
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Old 11-26-2017, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njineermike View Post
You don't have to understand, because it's none of your business. I personally dont understand how males can call themselves men while behaving in an effeminate manner, but its not my life to live. People love to say "donate the money" or "shoot cameras, not guns", but that's not going to happen. If eco tourism was such a draw and altruism worked, none of this would even be an issue, but it doesn't. Nobody pays $150K to fly to Tanzania and look at lions. They just don't. Old animals that don't breed only use up scarce resources younger breeding age animals can use, and will either die, or cause others to die. It could not possibly be explained in any simpler terms.

And as far as the killing goes. You, me, all of us are the descendants of apex predators. Period. Hominids have been hunting and killing other species for food and resources since before we could make fire. Some of us embrace that aspect of our nature and celebrate the cultures that we came from that hunted and killed, both for meat and for sport. For some of us, the nature of man is still intact.
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...by looking at craigslist?
If he'd actually done research he'd know the difference between threatened and endangered.

And threatened doesn't mean they are threatened throughout their respective range.

Something I find comical:

Dominant males in the animal kingdom are to be revered, while dominant males in the human species are to be abhorred.
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