Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > INTERESTS AND ACTIVITIES > Ammo and Reloading
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Ammo and Reloading Factory Ammunition, Reloading, Components, Load Data and more.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-18-2017, 10:07 AM
hotrail hotrail is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 232
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default Loading 45 ACP - trying to understand the variables

OK another newb question here...go easy.

Trying to understand reloading data. I am loading some 45ACP with 230 gr. Berry's plated RN and "CFE Pistol" powder. I looked at the data on the Hodgdon web site for this powder. They have data for a "230 gr HDY FMJ FP" with a starting load of 6.0 and a max of 6.8. Then they have "230 gr. LRN." with a starting load of 5.4 and a max of 6.2. The stated C.O.L. is the same for each.

So I understand the general rule is the plated bullets load to the same spec as the cast bullet, not the FMJ. So I started my loads in a safe range for the LRN bullet.

What is interesting is that the tested velocities (as shown on Hodgdon website) for the two loads are almost identical, both starting and max, despite the projectile being the same weight and the FMJ bullet having about 10% more powder. I am curious to understand why no difference in velocity for the difference in powder charge?

Second, chamber pressure is about 10% higher for the FMJ starting load, but at the max loads chamber pressure is listed as about 1.5% higher for the LRN load (which was 10% less powder). This seems totally counter-intuitive.

I would have expected a more linear relationship between the powder charge and the velocity, for an equal weight projectile. Are the differences a functon of the relative shape and length of the projectiles, giving a different volume inside the case? Or is it something else?

Also how much difference should I expect if I don't seat the bullets down all the way to the quoted 1.200? I assume that gives a bigger case volume and will result in lower chamber pressure (and presumably lower velocity)?

Last edited by hotrail; 04-18-2017 at 10:09 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-18-2017, 10:25 AM
Win231 Win231 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,555
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

A jacketed bullet has more resistance in the barrel than a lead bullet, so it needs a bigger powder charge to generate the same velocity. The plating on a plated bullet is soft, unlike a copper jacket & should only be loaded to mid-range velocities. At high velocities, the plating can come off & become stuck in the barrel.

And, when loading jacketed bullets for a pistol-caliber rifle, target velocities made for lead bullets should never be used. The bullet needs to clear a much-longer barrel.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-18-2017, 10:55 AM
robert101 robert101 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: southern CA
Posts: 1,249
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

I know you didn't ask, but in general I don't shoot lead or plated bullets over 1,200 fps. Check your target to make certain no fragmenting or plating has pealed off at what ever velocity you shoot. I have some Rainier plated bullets in 10MM that I regularly push to 1,200 fps without a problem. It depends on the bullet and plating really.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-18-2017, 11:29 AM
acourvil's Avatar
acourvil acourvil is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor - Lifetime
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: San Jose
Posts: 429
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

You will not get a 230gn bullet to 1200fps in 45acp with any reasonable load. Most factory loaded 230gn rounds are 800-850fps.

The fps/powder charge curve is not linear because the pressure curve is not linear, and the exact curve will vary depending on the powder and projectile used.

My experience is that for 45ACP the seating depth doesn't have a great effect on the observed pressure/fps (at least for the powders I've used). Depending on the gun, it can have significant effect on how smoothly the gun cycles (and whether you get feed problems). 1.200 is on the short side for a 230gn round; if you have feed problems, try moving it out to 1.250 or so.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-18-2017, 11:35 AM
kcheung2's Avatar
kcheung2 kcheung2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,346
iTrader: 30 / 100%
Default

The weight is not the only consideration, the construction and shape are also factors. That's why loading tables have different data for the same weight but round nose vs flat vs hollow point.

Take a fmj projectile and try to scratch it with your fingernail. You won't make a mark. But try the same thing with a plated or full lead projectile, and you'll leave a mark. The harder projectile means it take a bit more force to push it down a barrel, which is why fmj charges are higher. That extra resistance also explains why the velocity is approximately the same despite higher chamber pressures.

Charges are not perfectly linear. They may be approximately linear in a small range but it's not a reliable indicator.
__________________
---------------------
"There is no "best." If there was, everyone here would own that one, and no other." - DSB
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-18-2017, 2:45 PM
bazineta bazineta is offline
Mostly Harmless
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 569
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

I haven't a clue why there are manuals listing 230gr bullets at a COL of 1.200; that combination just isn't found in common usage -- if you measure any factory 230 ball round, you'll find it to be around 1.260.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-18-2017, 4:44 PM
noylj's Avatar
noylj noylj is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 615
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

The jacketed bullet has more resistance? Yet, the lead bullet produces the same velocities and near the same pressure with LESS powder.
First of all, accept the fact that lead bullets and jacketed bullets are different.
Next, be aware that you START all loading at the START load and not somewhere in the "safe" zone.
If you look at three manuals, you'll quickly see that there is no safe zone--pressure depends on the gun, the lot of powder, the exact bullets used (including, often, the lot number—as manufacturer's replace molds as they wear out or decide to make improvements and don't tell anyone), the cases used, the primers used, and the COL. So, NO manual can tell you what you'll get with your mix of components and no manual is more "accurate" than another manual. Learn to check a couple of sources and don't assume anything.
For SAAMI ammunition testing, it is common to use a short COL (as a worst case situation for pressure testing). Some manuals follow this test procedure and some use a more normal COL.
STOP looking at the test COL and start working up the COL for YOUR gun, YOUR magazine, and YOUR bullet.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-20-2017, 10:33 PM
rm1911's Avatar
rm1911 rm1911 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Soviet Socialist Republic of Kalifornia
Posts: 3,301
iTrader: 19 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by acourvil View Post
You will not get a 230gn bullet to 1200fps in 45acp with any reasonable load.

Someone needs to expand their horizons a bit

In actuality, 45 is probably one of the easiest rounds to load for. There's a large list of powders that will work, and most give pretty good results. Because it's got a generous case, runs at lower pressures, pretty much any faster burning powder will run well. For some real fun with a 45, go to a rifle range at night and sling some jacketed slugs downrange. You can literally see the round in flight.

And since it's a lower pressure round with no threat to push velocities above 1000fps data for jacketed and lead kinda interchange. Any jacketed load will work for lead. And since most lead data is lighter, it will usually work fine with jacketed. And plated bullets honestly any published data will work fine.
__________________
NRA Life Member since 1990

They're not liberals, they're leftists. Please don't use the former for the latter. Liberals are Locke, Jefferson, Burke, Hayek. Leftists are progressives, Prussian state-socialists, fascists. Liberals stand against the state and unequivocally support liberty. Leftists support state tyranny.

Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-21-2017, 2:16 AM
hambam105 hambam105 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,535
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Plated bullets in any caliber bite. Cast or a real FMJ is fine.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-22-2017, 8:30 AM
Socratic Socratic is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 173
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Hi hot rail,

You've got the right cartridge to reload. The .45 ACP is vey easy to reload. Lots of powder will give good results. I've tried a lot. Don't overlook Unique.

If you can get your hands on a copy of Ken Waters', Pet Loads, I'd suggest that you grab it. Ken has a lot go excellent info on hand loading the .45 ACP, and just about every other cartridge. It's my primary source of load data:
https://www.amazon.com/Pet-Loads-Com...ters+pet+loads
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-22-2017, 8:03 PM
stilly stilly is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Currently in a shanty I made in the river bottom by Eastvale.
Posts: 10,513
iTrader: 51 / 100%
Default

That book needs to be redone. They whored the hell out of it as cheap as possible...

Data quality = 8+
Artwork/ photos quality = 2

It would be NICE to know what a particular round looks like when it is loaded if it is not a normal one and photocopied photos from magazines aint cool. Not even half toned half of them....
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-23-2017, 5:05 PM
noylj's Avatar
noylj noylj is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 615
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Per Ramshot:
"SPECIAL NOTE ON CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH “COL”
It is important to note that the SAAMI “COL” values are for the firearms and ammunition manufacturers industry and must be seen as a guideline only.
The individual reloader is free to adjust this dimension to suit their particular firearm-component-weapon combination.
This parameter is determined by various dimensions such as
1) magazine length (space),
2) freebore-lead dimensions of the barrel,
3) ogive or profile of the projectile and
4) position of cannelure or crimp groove.
• Always begin loading at the minimum ‘Start Load.’"

Your COL (Cartridge Overall Length) is determined by your barrel (chamber and throat dimensions) and your gun (feed ramp) and your magazine (COL that fits magazine and when the magazine lips release the round for feeding) and the PARTICULAR bullet you are using. What worked in a pressure barrel or the lab's gun or in my gun has very little to do with what will work best in your gun.
Take the barrel out of the gun. Create two inert dummy rounds (no powder or primer) at max COL and remove enough case mouth flare for rounds to chamber (you can achieve this by using a sized case—expand-and-flare it, and remove the flare just until the case "plunks" in the barrel).
Drop the inert rounds in and decrease the COL until they chamber completely. This will be your "max" effective COL. I prefer to have the case head flush with the barrel hood (or a few mils higher than where the head of an empty case aligns with the barrel, as all cases are too short and I prefer to minimize head space). After this, place the inert rounds in the magazine and be sure they fit the magazine and feed and chamber.
You can also do this for any chambering problems you have. Remove the barrel and drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop this round in the barrel and rotate it back-and-forth.
Remove and inspect the round:
1) Scratches on bullet--COL is too long
2) Scratches on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp
3) Scratches just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case
4) Scratches on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit
5) Scratches on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-23-2017, 5:43 PM
BajaJames83's Avatar
BajaJames83 BajaJames83 is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: North West SD county
Posts: 4,300
iTrader: 286 / 100%
Default

I normally seat between 1.23 and 1.25 1.20 seems a little short
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-23-2017, 6:07 PM
Ktm45 Ktm45 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 21
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Just to jump in here the OPer said he is/will be using coated (poly ) rounds. How are those working out for you guys? Any feed issues? I have CZs and I've been told they can be finicky.....but my CZ will eat anything....brass cased.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-24-2017, 12:36 PM
JagerDog's Avatar
JagerDog JagerDog is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: South SF Bay Area
Posts: 8,314
iTrader: 17 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrail View Post
OK another newb question here...go easy.

Trying to understand reloading data. I am loading some 45ACP with 230 gr. Berry's plated RN and "CFE Pistol" powder. I looked at the data on the Hodgdon web site for this powder. They have data for a "230 gr HDY FMJ FP" with a starting load of 6.0 and a max of 6.8. Then they have "230 gr. LRN." with a starting load of 5.4 and a max of 6.2. The stated C.O.L. is the same for each.

So I understand the general rule is the plated bullets load to the same spec as the cast bullet, not the FMJ. So I started my loads in a safe range for the LRN bullet.

What is interesting is that the tested velocities (as shown on Hodgdon website) for the two loads are almost identical, both starting and max, despite the projectile being the same weight and the FMJ bullet having about 10% more powder. I am curious to understand why no difference in velocity for the difference in powder charge?

Second, chamber pressure is about 10% higher for the FMJ starting load, but at the max loads chamber pressure is listed as about 1.5% higher for the LRN load (which was 10% less powder). This seems totally counter-intuitive.

I would have expected a more linear relationship between the powder charge and the velocity, for an equal weight projectile. Are the differences a functon of the relative shape and length of the projectiles, giving a different volume inside the case? Or is it something else?

Also how much difference should I expect if I don't seat the bullets down all the way to the quoted 1.200? I assume that gives a bigger case volume and will result in lower chamber pressure (and presumably lower velocity)?
1.5% is well within the variability of the testing itself.

Those loading lead tend to seek modest (target) velocity, so more data is generated for the intended use. Jacketed can be from "plinking" to SD.

As stated above, jackets create more resistance (engraving by the rifling), so pressure tends up and more powder is required for same velocity.

I think you'll find most factory 230 gr FMJ to measure 1.230" - 1.250" COAL.
__________________
Dems are better at corruption cuz they have so much practice.



#Blackolivesmatter
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-24-2017, 1:45 PM
kcheung2's Avatar
kcheung2 kcheung2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,346
iTrader: 30 / 100%
Default

An easy mnemonic I use when seating .45 is 1.23 .45
__________________
---------------------
"There is no "best." If there was, everyone here would own that one, and no other." - DSB
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-24-2017, 7:22 PM
sghart sghart is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Sacramento County
Posts: 533
iTrader: 19 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rm1911 View Post
Someone needs to expand their horizons a bit

In actuality, 45 is probably one of the easiest rounds to load for. There's a large list of powders that will work, and most give pretty good results. Because it's got a generous case, runs at lower pressures, pretty much any faster burning powder will run well. For some real fun with a 45, go to a rifle range at night and sling some jacketed slugs downrange. You can literally see the round in flight.

And since it's a lower pressure round with no threat to push velocities above 1000fps data for jacketed and lead kinda interchange. Any jacketed load will work for lead. And since most lead data is lighter, it will usually work fine with jacketed. And plated bullets honestly any published data will work fine.

You have a 230 gr 45 ACP load that does a genuine 1200 fps in a 1911? Please share with us. I have a 150 gr LSWC load that does 1200 fps. A 230 gr load would be something that I would experiment with.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-24-2017, 7:59 PM
rm1911's Avatar
rm1911 rm1911 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Soviet Socialist Republic of Kalifornia
Posts: 3,301
iTrader: 19 / 100%
Default Loading 45 ACP - trying to understand the variables

Quote:
Originally Posted by sghart View Post
You have a 230 gr 45 ACP load that does a genuine 1200 fps in a 1911? Please share with us. I have a 150 gr LSWC load that does 1200 fps. A 230 gr load would be something that I would experiment with.


Absolutely. It's kinda tricky and I don't suggest beginners try this but you take a primed case, fill it to the brim with 2400 or 296, then seat the bullet ever so carefully. Of course you'll need a single stage press, preferrably one of the heavy duty Forster co-ax presses 'cause it takes a s*** ton of force to seat that bullet. Now sometimes it don't work as the case just bulges all to hell and gone and it don't chamber. Sometimes the pressure shoots the primer out. Crazy.

Sometimes ya get the bullet in there and that bullet looks like it's gonna just get pushed right back out. Kinda like a baby's head popping out of the well, you know, and so now it gets difficulter because you apply the crimp. Now, ya can't seat and crimp this load in the same stage, don't ask me how I know, but the video of it was up on you tube until they pulled it down. Something about content inappropriate for public view or something. I don't know.

So now ya gotta turn down that crimp die, and I mean turn that sumbich down. Like you know those heavy crimps you put on a 44 mag Alaska bear hunting bullet, that's a start. This crimp has got to cut its own freaking cannelure. Gotta dig in so far into the projectile that you think you cut the bullet in half. But ya don't.

And that crimp is absolutely essential to get full burn outta 296. That bullet has to stay in the barrel longer'n a musket. You know the shows with old r lee ermey where he fires that revolutionary war musket. There's the trigger pull, the flash, then about 10 seconds later some round piece of lead goes flinging down range. Well, that's about the timeframe you gonna need to get 1200 fps. You'll pull the trigger and damn sure think you got a FTF of hang fire, or whatever. But nope. That bullet is just plugging up the barrel, letting that powder burn and pressure curve build. Kinda like a major bowel blockage. You're all bottled up thinking that it's been about 2 weeks since you dropped a deuce, laid some cable, cleared the pipes, and then yer doctor gives you something to drink and next thing you know it's flying outta ya faster than if ya had Ebola.

I can't verify that this round does 1200 fps because every time I put a chrono in front of the barrel the muzzle blast blows the thing into three dozen pieces. I've already dropped $400 dollars on several chrono graphs. Midway is really good about returns but after the fourth one they finally said enough. Turns out customer is always right isn't always true. Who knew.

But I can tell you that I've punched holes in steel that other regular rounds have just politely ricocheted off of. And here's the thing, and why I don't recommend you try this. I put ear plugs in inside of ear muffs. I've got double protection. Somewhere like 60-70 db reduction. I could work on the flight deck of the USS Ronald Reagan with that level of hearing protection. But this round, the shock waves blasted right through the muffs and plugs and now I gotta see an earologist or something.

I spoke to the dude on the phone, actually my wife did for me, and I explained the problem. He understood. He's coming over next week to load a few of his own.
__________________
NRA Life Member since 1990

They're not liberals, they're leftists. Please don't use the former for the latter. Liberals are Locke, Jefferson, Burke, Hayek. Leftists are progressives, Prussian state-socialists, fascists. Liberals stand against the state and unequivocally support liberty. Leftists support state tyranny.

Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-25-2017, 3:59 AM
Twystd1 Twystd1 is offline
Superfluous
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The OC
Posts: 2,724
iTrader: 130 / 100%
Default

I haven't laughed that hard in a long time.

-T
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-25-2017, 5:37 AM
pennstater's Avatar
pennstater pennstater is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Diamond Bar,Ca.
Posts: 1,395
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

1200 fps/mv from a .45acp using a 230gr bullet? I don't believe I'll try that one. I like my loads with 230 LRN at around 755-860 mv over the screens. Using "Clays" or Universal. OAL: 1.270" for my gun. 1911 Springfield. These are pleasant to shoot and accurate.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-25-2017, 10:26 AM
JagerDog's Avatar
JagerDog JagerDog is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: South SF Bay Area
Posts: 8,314
iTrader: 17 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rm1911 View Post
Absolutely. It's kinda tricky and I don't suggest beginners try this but you take a primed case, fill it to the brim with 2400 or 296, then seat the bullet ever so carefully. Of course you'll need a single stage press, preferrably one of the heavy duty Forster co-ax presses 'cause it takes a s*** ton of force to seat that bullet. Now sometimes it don't work as the case just bulges all to hell and gone and it don't chamber. Sometimes the pressure shoots the primer out. Crazy.

Sometimes ya get the bullet in there and that bullet looks like it's gonna just get pushed right back out. Kinda like a baby's head popping out of the well, you know, and so now it gets difficulter because you apply the crimp. Now, ya can't seat and crimp this load in the same stage, don't ask me how I know, but the video of it was up on you tube until they pulled it down. Something about content inappropriate for public view or something. I don't know.

So now ya gotta turn down that crimp die, and I mean turn that sumbich down. Like you know those heavy crimps you put on a 44 mag Alaska bear hunting bullet, that's a start. This crimp has got to cut its own freaking cannelure. Gotta dig in so far into the projectile that you think you cut the bullet in half. But ya don't.

And that crimp is absolutely essential to get full burn outta 296. That bullet has to stay in the barrel longer'n a musket. You know the shows with old r lee ermey where he fires that revolutionary war musket. There's the trigger pull, the flash, then about 10 seconds later some round piece of lead goes flinging down range. Well, that's about the timeframe you gonna need to get 1200 fps. You'll pull the trigger and damn sure think you got a FTF of hang fire, or whatever. But nope. That bullet is just plugging up the barrel, letting that powder burn and pressure curve build. Kinda like a major bowel blockage. You're all bottled up thinking that it's been about 2 weeks since you dropped a deuce, laid some cable, cleared the pipes, and then yer doctor gives you something to drink and next thing you know it's flying outta ya faster than if ya had Ebola.

I can't verify that this round does 1200 fps because every time I put a chrono in front of the barrel the muzzle blast blows the thing into three dozen pieces. I've already dropped $400 dollars on several chrono graphs. Midway is really good about returns but after the fourth one they finally said enough. Turns out customer is always right isn't always true. Who knew.

But I can tell you that I've punched holes in steel that other regular rounds have just politely ricocheted off of. And here's the thing, and why I don't recommend you try this. I put ear plugs in inside of ear muffs. I've got double protection. Somewhere like 60-70 db reduction. I could work on the flight deck of the USS Ronald Reagan with that level of hearing protection. But this round, the shock waves blasted right through the muffs and plugs and now I gotta see an earologist or something.

I spoke to the dude on the phone, actually my wife did for me, and I explained the problem. He understood. He's coming over next week to load a few of his own.
__________________
Dems are better at corruption cuz they have so much practice.



#Blackolivesmatter
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-27-2017, 7:25 PM
acourvil's Avatar
acourvil acourvil is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor - Lifetime
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: San Jose
Posts: 429
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

All jokes aside, with 45 Super (much higher chamber pressure than 45 ACP), AND an 8 inch barrel, you might be able to get to 1200fps with a 230gn bullet. With a 45 ACP and a normal length pistol barrel, you will damage your action before you get to that velocity.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-28-2017, 10:19 AM
dwightlooi dwightlooi is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 442
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by acourvil View Post
You will not get a 230gn bullet to 1200fps in 45acp with any reasonable load. Most factory loaded 230gn rounds are 800-850fps.

The fps/powder charge curve is not linear because the pressure curve is not linear, and the exact curve will vary depending on the powder and projectile used.

My experience is that for 45ACP the seating depth doesn't have a great effect on the observed pressure/fps (at least for the powders I've used). Depending on the gun, it can have significant effect on how smoothly the gun cycles (and whether you get feed problems). 1.200 is on the short side for a 230gn round; if you have feed problems, try moving it out to 1.250 or so.
You are absolutely right. Seating depth has very little effect on velocity or pressure in the 45. This is so because the 45ACP is totally a pressure limited cartridge, not a volume limited cartridge. Most loads does not get anywhere near filling the case. Powders that are slow enough not to break the pressure limits of 45ACP +P or even 45 Super with a full case generally are too slow to fully burn and produce efficient velocity returns in a 4" or 5" barrel. Powders that work well in 4~5" of barrel will reach the pressure limits with the case half full (give or take). A 230 grain bullet seated to 1.250~1.275" will leave room for about 12~14 grains of powder -- depending on the bullet and powder. You'll fill the case with about a third to half that!

That is why the 45 GAP (Glock Auto Pistol) was created. It was realized that you can shorten the case and lose zero performance while enabling the round to fit in frames designed for 9mm and 40S&W length cartridges. That is also why I don't try to get the most velocity out of the 45ACP like I do with the 40 or other high pressure chamberings (it's futile). The 45 is a big, slow, not particularly energetic cartridge that is easy to shoot and easy on the gun. It will always be. If that is not your cup of tea, shoot something else!

Having said that, CFE Pistol is just an "OK" powder for 45. You'll use about 40% more of it than say Titegroup and get the same approximate velocity. Hodgdon's velocity claims are bullsh|t! I am lucky to get in the upper 800s at max load with 230s. You also cannot create the classic "barely major" loads (185 gr @ 900 fps) using the CFE. You are pushing about 1000 fps at minimum load. In fact, it gets dirty if you go near or below minimum so you'll want to keep CFE at or near max for best cleanliness and minimum velocity spread. I use it because I want to keep just one pistol powder for 9, 357 SIG, 40 and 45. But if you are a competitive shooter with the 45 go with Titegroup.

Last edited by dwightlooi; 04-28-2017 at 10:26 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-01-2017, 6:48 PM
mofo1111 mofo1111 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 46
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ktm45 View Post
Just to jump in here the OPer said he is/will be using coated (poly ) rounds. How are those working out for you guys? Any feed issues? I have CZs and I've been told they can be finicky.....but my CZ will eat anything....brass cased.
The OP said he was using Berry's Bullets. These are copper plated bullets.

I have just started using Blue Bullets in .40 cal. They work great and are accurate in P226.

I tried Black Bullets International and did not like any combination in 9mm. I had to seat them too deep in case. If I seated them any longer, they would engage the barrel rifling. They were the cone profile. The profile did just didn't work well with my Barsto barrel. My Glock will accept a longer COAL in 9mm, but Glock recommends only jacketed bullets. The BBI bullets just didn't work out that well for me. Other people seem to like them. YMMV.

I have some ACME "red" bullets in 45, but haven't loaded them yet.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 05-01-2017, 6:58 PM
Maltese Falcon's Avatar
Maltese Falcon Maltese Falcon is offline
Ordo Militaris Templi
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Glendale, CA
Posts: 5,895
iTrader: 73 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rm1911 View Post
Absolutely. It's kinda tricky and I don't suggest beginners try this but you take a primed case, fill it to the brim with 2400 or 296, then seat the bullet ever so carefully. Of course you'll need a single stage press, preferrably one of the heavy duty Forster co-ax presses 'cause it takes a s*** ton of force to seat that bullet. Now sometimes it don't work as the case just bulges all to hell and gone and it don't chamber. Sometimes the pressure shoots the primer out. Crazy.

Sometimes ya get the bullet in there and that bullet looks like it's gonna just get pushed right back out. Kinda like a baby's head popping out of the well, you know, and so now it gets difficulter because you apply the crimp. Now, ya can't seat and crimp this load in the same stage, don't ask me how I know, but the video of it was up on you tube until they pulled it down. Something about content inappropriate for public view or something. I don't know.

So now ya gotta turn down that crimp die, and I mean turn that sumbich down. Like you know those heavy crimps you put on a 44 mag Alaska bear hunting bullet, that's a start. This crimp has got to cut its own freaking cannelure. Gotta dig in so far into the projectile that you think you cut the bullet in half. But ya don't.

And that crimp is absolutely essential to get full burn outta 296. That bullet has to stay in the barrel longer'n a musket. You know the shows with old r lee ermey where he fires that revolutionary war musket. There's the trigger pull, the flash, then about 10 seconds later some round piece of lead goes flinging down range. Well, that's about the timeframe you gonna need to get 1200 fps. You'll pull the trigger and damn sure think you got a FTF of hang fire, or whatever. But nope. That bullet is just plugging up the barrel, letting that powder burn and pressure curve build. Kinda like a major bowel blockage. You're all bottled up thinking that it's been about 2 weeks since you dropped a deuce, laid some cable, cleared the pipes, and then yer doctor gives you something to drink and next thing you know it's flying outta ya faster than if ya had Ebola.

I can't verify that this round does 1200 fps because every time I put a chrono in front of the barrel the muzzle blast blows the thing into three dozen pieces. I've already dropped $400 dollars on several chrono graphs. Midway is really good about returns but after the fourth one they finally said enough. Turns out customer is always right isn't always true. Who knew.

But I can tell you that I've punched holes in steel that other regular rounds have just politely ricocheted off of. And here's the thing, and why I don't recommend you try this. I put ear plugs in inside of ear muffs. I've got double protection. Somewhere like 60-70 db reduction. I could work on the flight deck of the USS Ronald Reagan with that level of hearing protection. But this round, the shock waves blasted right through the muffs and plugs and now I gotta see an earologist or something.

I spoke to the dude on the phone, actually my wife did for me, and I explained the problem. He understood. He's coming over next week to load a few of his own.
You sir are a dangerous man...

.
__________________
The deterioration of every government begins with the decay of the principles on which it was founded. Charles-Louis de Secondat (1689-1755) Baron de Montesquieu


In America, freedom and justice have always come from the ballot box, the jury box, and when that fails, the cartridge box.
Steve Symms, ex-U.S. Senator, Idaho

Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 05-01-2017, 7:07 PM
mofo1111 mofo1111 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 46
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Just listen to noylj as stated above for COAL. The quote below is credited to him:

Your COL (Cartridge Overall Length) is determined by your barrel (chamber and throat dimensions) and your gun (feed ramp) and your magazine (COL that fits magazine and when the magazine lips release the round for feeding) and the PARTICULAR bullet you are using. What worked in a pressure barrel or the lab's gun or in my gun has very little to do with what will work best in your gun.
Take the barrel out of the gun. Create two inert dummy rounds (no powder or primer) at max COL and remove enough case mouth flare for rounds to chamber (you can achieve this by using a sized case—expand-and-flare it, and remove the flare just until the case "plunks" in the barrel).
Drop the inert rounds in and decrease the COL until they chamber completely. This will be your "max" effective COL. I prefer to have the case head flush with the barrel hood (or a few mils higher than where the head of an empty case aligns with the barrel, as all cases are too short and I prefer to minimize head space). After this, place the inert rounds in the magazine and be sure they fit the magazine and feed and chamber.
You can also do this for any chambering problems you have. Remove the barrel and drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop this round in the barrel and rotate it back-and-forth.
Remove and inspect the round:
1) Scratches on bullet--COL is too long

If you follow his instructions regarding COAL, you should be good.
With that said, here is Berry's Bullets recommended COAL for their plated bullets. It also includes the OAL of the bullet itself. I think it is a PDF.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf z Bullet C.O.L..pdf (602.5 KB, 5 views)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 6:42 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2018, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.