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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #81  
Old 04-18-2017, 9:05 PM
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Default 2017 Sacramento Valley - Long Range Wind Reading/ Shooting Clinic

Yes, that is what needs to be taught and keyed on. Also, by the time the bullets a reach non-disturbed environment again (<.8) it is generally too far to matter.. once in trans.. you need a stable projectile, or, starve it off by going faster with better BC.

I am posting via Siri and going as quickly as I can. In general, people get messed up with everything from optical displacement (mirage myth of the heat waves causing the bullets to drop less LoL ) precision versus accuracy, etc.

I grouped two statements together that probably made it more confusing. The 120s despite starting out faster, scrubbing speed, can end up transonic before the 140s. People tend to blame the wind without realizing what the the culprit is.






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Last edited by diver160651; 04-18-2017 at 9:10 PM..
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  #82  
Old 04-20-2017, 8:23 PM
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Originally Posted by bsumoba View Post
Sounds like the right answer is to stay away from the transonic zone.

If someone really wants to shoot a .308 Win to 1,000 yards, then they realistically need to single feed, get a chamber cut for the heavier bullets like the 185, 200, 215gr bullets, seat them out long, get more powder into the case and shoot longer barrels.
Mine did well with that load with a 24" barrel, but it wasn't easy and its not my go-to rifle for 1000+ yards; I put my son on my Surgeon 591 in 6.5 x 47 Lupua (Lane 8, 2nd squad) and he was making it look easy shooting 140 gr. Berger Hybrids.

I was seating the 175SMK's in my 308 out further then the magazine would accept and single loading them, not so much to increase powder volume, but to reduce the jump. That load at 100-yards consistantly shoots .420" 5-shot groups in my Rem. 700 PSS, for what I typically do with this rifle it's all I need.
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  #83  
Old 04-20-2017, 8:34 PM
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Originally Posted by MeatyMac View Post
Mine did well with that load with a 24" barrel, but it wasn't easy and its not my go-to rifle for 1000+ yards; I put my son on my Surgeon 591 in 6.5 x 47 Lupua (Lane 8, 2nd squad) and he was making it look easy shooting 140 gr. Berger Hybrids.

I was seating the 175SMK's in my 308 out further then the magazine would accept and single loading them, not so much to increase powder volume, but to reduce the jump. That load at 100-yards consistantly shoots .420" 5-shot groups in my Rem. 700 PSS, for what I typically do with this rifle it's all I need.
I am not saying that it cannot be done. What I was saying is that it is not the ideal setup. I have a 20" LR-308 that shoots 175s out to 1K as well and I can consistently hit...the paper. LOL.
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  #84  
Old 04-20-2017, 8:35 PM
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Originally Posted by diver160651 View Post
That's a myth that keeps getting taught, re-taught and repeated.

The sound barrier crossing is not the point of concern for accuracy. While the 175SMK is a very stable round, shooter should be concerned and using Mach 1.2 as transonic disturbances can be seen as early as 1.3 with the correct conditions.

Ever wonder why your calculations that are spot on at closer ranges a a click or so low as you approach the magical sound barrier crossing and often way low past Mach 1 (still transonic) or our why apps like Applied Ballistics need to be "tuned in the transonic region"?

Anyway, someone who shoots a lot of fixed distances may not really understand what's happening, be a great shooter with their stuff, yet still propagate the myth. This might be because their shooting a zippy, high BC offering that is most likely on the good side of Mach 1.2 or just past it, not deep into it.
Yep, you pegged me pretty well with that assessment...

I understand a little better what's happening now, thanks for your reply.

Mac
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  #85  
Old 04-21-2017, 9:02 PM
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With a 6.5 rifle, should I get Honady 120gr elm to make the wind reading more challenging? Or 140 gr?

I missed this one and will go to the NCPPRC clinic this year. I did go to the mid range clinic with you guys and will go to your long range clinic next year.


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  #86  
Old 04-22-2017, 4:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jconfus View Post
With a 6.5 rifle, should I get Honady 120gr elm to make the wind reading more challenging? Or 140 gr?

I missed this one and will go to the NCPPRC clinic this year. I did go to the mid range clinic with you guys and will go to your long range clinic next year.


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Short answer, use the bullet with the highest BC possible, so go with the 140s.

No need to make wind reading more "challenging". There is no science to wind reading. It is all about feel and reading conditions (flags, mirage, etc).

It is easy to run your ballistics apps and put in theoretical wind values in there and it spits out a number to make an adjustment. I wish it were that easy.

Some use kestrels at the firing line to determine wind. This is okay to get a general feel for that the wind value is. But, that is only one data point. There is a lot of space between you and the target. Look at the picture below. This is not uncommon. Sometimes you will also see wind flags going one way, but mirage going another way.

Take advantage of that BC and shoot it at a good speed and get out there and give it a whirl

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  #87  
Old 04-22-2017, 8:08 AM
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I suppose, based on just the flags, I'd hold .65 mil left. But I'd have to take the shot and see what happens. I can't say why I'd hold that. I wasn't at this clinic. But based on my experience shooting at distance, that's what my gut is telling me. I'm shooting 140gr 6.5 Creedmoor ELD-M from a 26" barrel, going 2818fps at the muzzle.

EDIT: Also, I don't think I've ever had to really hold more than that at any distance out to 1500 yards. Weird. I guess I've just been lucky with low wind whenever I shoot. At Sacramento Valley, I usually only need about 1/2 mil at 1,000 on any given day. It's never really been super windy when I go, except that time the match was canceled because of the fog.

Last edited by FourT6and2; 04-22-2017 at 8:13 AM..
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  #88  
Old 04-22-2017, 8:09 AM
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Originally Posted by FourT6and2 View Post
I suppose, based on just the flags, I'd hold .65 mil left. But I'd have to take the shot and see what happens. I can't say why I'd hold that. I wasn't at this clinic. But based on my experience shooting at distance, that's what my gut is telling me. I'm shooting 140gr 6.5 Creedmoor ELD-M from a 26" barrel, going 2818fps at the muzzle.
Go by the mirage.
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  #89  
Old 04-22-2017, 8:15 AM
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Go by the mirage.
lol I can't. It's a photo. Need to see movement in order to read the mirage...
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  #90  
Old 04-22-2017, 8:24 AM
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Sounds good thanks.

I am guessing one click (0.1 mil) to the Right for the pic
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsumoba View Post
Short answer, use the bullet with the highest BC possible, so go with the 140s.

No need to make wind reading more "challenging". There is no science to wind reading. It is all about feel and reading conditions (flags, mirage, etc).

It is easy to run your ballistics apps and put in theoretical wind values in there and it spits out a number to make an adjustment. I wish it were that easy.

Some use kestrels at the firing line to determine wind. This is okay to get a general feel for that the wind value is. But, that is only one data point. There is a lot of space between you and the target. Look at the picture below. This is not uncommon. Sometimes you will also see wind flags going one way, but mirage going another way.

Take advantage of that BC and shoot it at a good speed and get out there and give it a whirl


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  #91  
Old 04-22-2017, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by highpower790 View Post
Go by the mirage.
For those who aren't familiar with shooting at established ranges like Sac or Coalinga or Ben Avery, etc, the general rule is to read mirage in winds less than 5 mph. Above that, wind flags are a better indicator. Again, it is a general rule. Wind flags are also crucial for wind angle. Wind angle changes affect the bullet quite a bit.

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Originally Posted by jconfus View Post
Sounds good thanks.

I am guessing one click (0.1 mil) to the Right for the pic
One hint in slow fire prone shooting is to look at your targets to your left and right. Note when theit target comes up and their spotting disk. This is a great indicator, especially since they just shot into that condition. If you see a pattern of shots going one way or the other, try to relate that to the mirage and/or wind flags.
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  #92  
Old 04-22-2017, 11:59 AM
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Great hint.
I was reading the two flags in the middle and put more correction based on the second last.

But based on the hint I look at the targets again. There are 3 dead on and 3 drifted left, so I would keep my correction same, dial one click to R, which is 0.1 mil and 3.6 inch at 1000 yard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsumoba View Post
For those who aren't familiar with shooting at established ranges like Sac or Coalinga or Ben Avery, etc, the general rule is to read mirage in winds less than 5 mph. Above that, wind flags are a better indicator. Again, it is a general rule. Wind flags are also crucial for wind angle. Wind angle changes affect the bullet quite a bit.



One hint in slow fire prone shooting is to look at your targets to your left and right. Note when theit target comes up and their spotting disk. This is a great indicator, especially since they just shot into that condition. If you see a pattern of shots going one way or the other, try to relate that to the mirage and/or wind flags.

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