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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

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  #41  
Old 06-25-2018, 9:49 PM
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And USPSA doesnt?
Did you hear me say that USPSA is training (let alone, "better" training). You're so busy trying to mock opinions contrary to yours that you aren't reading what is being written.
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Old 06-25-2018, 9:53 PM
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Did you hear me say that USPSA is training (let alone, "better" training). You're so busy trying to mock opinions contrary to yours that you aren't reading what is being written.
I "read" your statement to that effect, but I thought it funny that you singled out IDPA as encouraging "rushing thru an environment"... ignoring USPSA's hyper emphasis on "rushing"... thats all.
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  #43  
Old 06-25-2018, 10:04 PM
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I "read" your statement to that effect, but I thought it funny that you singled out IDPA as encouraging "rushing thru an environment... ignoring USPSA's hyper emphasis on "rushing"... thats all.
IDPA got the nod because it far eclipses USPSA for members who think that it makes them more tactically competent. It also wins in the number of times you here "you should compete with what you carry." So the training fallacy tends to be stronger in that sport.

But yes, USPSA is no better in terms of being "training." Although, I find it funny that USPSA shooters generally cannot shoot half as good as IDPA shooters if they have to lean at all.

But to counter IDPA's "compete with what you carry" ridiculousness, , you don't dare show up to a USPSA match without the obligatory $150 "I'm a sponsored shooter" shirt that you paid for yourself (though big IDPA matches are starting to catch up on this fashion necessity).

The all have their great aspects, and they all have their goofy ****.
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  #44  
Old 06-25-2018, 10:14 PM
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But to counter IDPA's "compete with what you carry" ridiculousness, , you don't dare show up to a USPSA match without the obligatory $150 "I'm a sponsored shooter" shirt that you paid for yourself (though big IDPA matches are starting to catch up on this fashion necessity).

The all have their great aspects, and they all have their goofy ****.
I dont consider "compete with what you carry" to be ridiculous at all...
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  #45  
Old 06-25-2018, 10:20 PM
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or (I cant decide which) Making that statement and then not bothering to tell us how but instead why makes for a rather ineffective discussion. With that in mind, I have to assume that you are saying; 1) You cant be fast and accurate or that 2) Moving too fast thru an IDPA COF will result in penalties for excessive speed?
I did tell you why.

The balance between speed and accuracy is due to imperfect sight picture at high speed. As the speed increases, the nominal accuracy decreases. It takes a lot of training to use stance, grip, trigger pull and (most importantly) visual cues to fire shots accurately enough at high speed. "Accurately enough" implies an occassional miss (outside the A zone for higher classes, complete miss for lower classes).

The amount of penalty for misses is what controls the speed of the game. The more penalty, the slower the game. It's a simple consequence of scoring. You will see it in USPSA on Texas stars or other steel - when there is no C zone, the best guys slow down so they can get accurate hits.

To answer your snarky false dichotomy, you don't get penalized for going too fast, you simply don't go fast in order to avoid penalties. For example, watch steel challenge and you'll see a miss here and there. If a miss was a DQ, those guys would go at half the current speed. It would be just too risky to push the limit.

"Not going fast" by design of the sport is what favors guys who can't go fast. If you make all targets "small steel at 50 yards," you'll completely remove any speed from the equation and the guy who can shoot bulls eye will win. Nothing wrong with it, it's just not "action shooting."

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IDPA particpants are just "bench rest style shooting"? Your ad hominem "style" attack on IDPA and its participants says it all about your bias and ability to have a fair and intelligent discussion.
I didn't say that. If you want intelligent discussion, you have to first read what people actually say.

I said: "It's almost as if it's designed for people ..." not that IDPA is bench rest shooting. I stand by that. The more you stifle the speed, the less of an action sport it is. No speed, no action shooting. No speed equals slow shooting. Slow shooting is closer to bench rest shooting than to action shooting.

Pick a top class shooter in IDPA and a top class shooter in USPSA and I'll bet you the USPSA shooter will be a better overall shooter nine out of ten times. The USPSA shooter can slow down "to get hits," while the IDPA shooter cannot speed up and maintain decent accuracy.
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  #46  
Old 06-25-2018, 10:21 PM
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I dont consider "compete with what you carry" to be ridiculous at all...
Sorry. Should have said, "you need to compete with what you carry" (i.e. everyone should be forced to do this). Nothing wrong with an individual making that choice for themselves.
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Old 06-25-2018, 10:23 PM
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The USPSA shooter can slow down "to get hits,"
"A" and a "C" , "A and a "C"..... At least it makes scoring easy.
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  #48  
Old 06-25-2018, 10:25 PM
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I dont consider "compete with what you carry" to be ridiculous at all...
It is if you believe it's some sort of tactical training. It's just a game.
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  #49  
Old 06-25-2018, 10:34 PM
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It is if you believe it's some sort of tactical training. It's just a game.
I choose to reinforce at every opportunity the familiarity and muscle memory I have with my carry guns. I would use my carry guns at USPSA matches as well if I was so inclined to shoot that discipline.
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  #50  
Old 06-26-2018, 5:51 AM
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Those winners are the exceptional competitors, not the rule at most all local USPSA matches....
And that is the rule at most local IDPA matches?

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Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
PS: we havent even mentioned what constitutes the gun you would most likely CCW versus that space gun used for USPSA but tha'ts another 8 page thread...
....
Most serious competitors in ESP or SSP wouldn't CCW with their IDPA handgun either. Glock 34, Tanfoglio, CZ SP-01/Shadow etc. are too big and bulky. Especially if one is shooting ESP and adds a magwell.

There is one guy I know of that shoots Limited Minor from appendix carry and he is classified as Master in USPSA (would make GM if he shot a competition gun) but he is the exception to the rule.
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  #51  
Old 06-26-2018, 9:30 AM
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USPSA involves leaning around barriers in every match. They don't refer to it as cover. In fact USPSA requires even more severe leaning around barriers than IDPA "cover" requires. And now, with IDPA using faultlines and not requiring movement when shooting in the open, it's more USPSA like than ever before. And I shoot local and major matches in both sports so I'm not guessing or assuming what they involve.
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  #52  
Old 06-26-2018, 9:43 AM
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USPSA involves leaning around barriers in every match. They don't refer to it as cover. In fact USPSA requires even more severe leaning around barriers than IDPA "cover" requires. And now, with IDPA using faultlines and not requiring movement when shooting in the open, it's more USPSA like than ever before. And I shoot local and major matches in both sports so I'm not guessing or assuming what they involve.
Yeah... I am very disappointed with the no required shooting on the move now in IDPA. It is worth noting that it is still allowed in certain circumstances. it just cant be required.
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  #53  
Old 06-26-2018, 10:16 AM
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Yeah... I am very disappointed with the no required shooting on the move now in IDPA. It is worth noting that it is still allowed in certain circumstances. it just cant be required.
I am confused about this a bit. One of the matches I shot you turned around the corner and had targets visible if you were approaching the array from the right side of the corridor (walls on either side). I asked if I could shoot the targets on the move. I was told yes, but then I would get a penalty as I would be exposing myself to the targets.

I had to run to the end of the corridor, stop behind the marked cover lines and shoot the targets while standing still.

So, how does shooting on the move could be allowed where you don't get the penalty?
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  #54  
Old 06-26-2018, 10:29 AM
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I dont consider "compete with what you carry" to be ridiculous at all...
Disclaimer, I no longer shoot IDPA since the 1 second per point rule went into effect.

The compete with what you carry, should be the rule of IDPA if it wants to continue to live with it's promise of defensive pistol.

"IDPA is the use of practical equipment including full charge service ammunition to solve simulated “real world” self-defense scenarios using practical handguns and holsters that are suitable for self-defense use. The main goal is to test the skill and ability of an individual."

If it wants to be a game, like USPSA then it should stand up and say that. Sure there is the cover vest or whatever, but I don't see anyone shooting from IWB holsters with small guns, like the ones most people carry. However, another disclaimer, I live in CA in a county, where a total of 6 people have carry permits.

IDPA is a game not a tactical or defensive sport. No one I have ever heard of is walking around carrying a ESP gun. Almost no one is carrying a full sized gun in a kydex holster, with a kydex double mag pouch.

USPSA with all its faults, is still creative. The course of fire simply says. start here, shoot everything. IDPA is start here, shoot T1-T4, go to P2 shoot T5-T7, go here...
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  #55  
Old 06-26-2018, 10:29 AM
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I am confused about this a bit. One of the matches I shot you turned around the corner and had targets visible if you were approaching the array from the right side of the corridor (walls on either side). I asked if I could shoot the targets on the move. I was told yes, but then I would get a penalty as I would be exposing myself to the targets.

I had to run to the end of the corridor, stop behind the marked cover lines and shoot the targets while standing still.

So, how does shooting on the move could be allowed where you don't get the penalty?
Surprise targets that come into view as you pass a "vision barrier" ... not hard cover. You can stop and shoot them or shoot on the move to the next delineated shooting position.
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  #56  
Old 06-26-2018, 11:44 AM
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I choose to reinforce at every opportunity the familiarity and muscle memory I have with my carry guns. I would use my carry guns at USPSA matches as well if I was so inclined to shoot that discipline.
All bickering aside, this is what I find wrong with the IDPA.

It's not a tactical class, it's not a self defense scenario, it's not force on force training. It's a game. There are rules, scores and rankings. Whoever plays the game the best wins.

I mean, we are talking fishing vests and Glock 34 in OWB holsters.
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Old 06-26-2018, 11:48 AM
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The compete with what you carry, should be the rule of IDPA if it wants to continue to live with it's promise of defensive pistol.
Even then it wouldn't be realistic. And it doesn't have to be. It's an action sport where people go to shoot and have fun. They also get much, much better in handling their guns and shooting on the go.

The "it's self defense scenario" is akin to virtue-signaling. Pretending.
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Old 06-26-2018, 12:03 PM
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I choose to reinforce at every opportunity the familiarity and muscle memory I have with my carry guns. I would use my carry guns at USPSA matches as well if I was so inclined to shoot that discipline.
One thing about this. You'd get more reps and muscle memory dry firing for 15 minutes a day and an occasional live fire than a match where you shoot less than 100 rounds and less than a minute of shooting (if you are good ).

Competition is where you prove what you have worked on is right under time pressure rather than a way to gain/reinforce muscle memory per se. Let's face it in a 8 stage IDPA match you are drawing 8 times and reloading 8 times or so. That is not a lot of reps for those skills.

You are the one that says people need to get trained prior to competition while at the same time saying competition reinforces muscle memory etc.. Not enough reps in a match to reinforce anything.
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  #59  
Old 06-26-2018, 12:30 PM
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I don't know why IDPA still says "the use of full charge service ammunition" in it's description. Both games have the same power factors except for IDPA revolver.
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Old 06-26-2018, 2:02 PM
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All bickering aside, this is what I find wrong with the IDPA.

It's not a tactical class, it's not a self defense scenario, it's not force on force training. It's a game. There are rules, scores and rankings. Whoever plays the game the best wins.

I mean, we are talking fishing vests and Glock 34 in OWB holsters.
IT"S NOT A FISHING VEST!!!!! No glock for me....
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Old 06-26-2018, 3:16 PM
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All bickering aside, this is what I find wrong with the IDPA.

It's not a tactical class, it's not a self defense scenario, it's not force on force training. It's a game. There are rules, scores and rankings. Whoever plays the game the best wins.

I mean, we are talking fishing vests and Glock 34 in OWB holsters.
Yes, but remember that there is a wisdom to shooting some of the matches with your carry gun. As I said, the sports aren't tactical training, but they work wonders on developing weapon mechanics. Very, very smart thing to shoot your carry gun (if you CCW) under competitive stress at least once in a while.
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Old 06-26-2018, 3:21 PM
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One thing about this. You'd get more reps and muscle memory dry firing for 15 minutes a day and an occasional live fire than a match where you shoot less than 100 rounds and less than a minute of shooting (if you are good ).
One hundred rounds under competitive stress is better than 500 rounds at a public range's static line. And while dry fire is VERY beneficial, you still need to balance it with live fire if you are going to carry a gun in public.
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Old 06-26-2018, 3:50 PM
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One hundred rounds under competitive stress is better than 500 rounds at a public range's static line. And while dry fire is VERY beneficial, you still need to balance it with live fire if you are going to carry a gun in public.
Gryff,
Totally agree. Learning to shoot under pressure (even it is only pretend time pressure) is a really good thing for anyone's shooting. However, dry fire is the place to create those good habits and then confirm them with live fire. The indoor range with the 2 second per shot rule is not the place.

However, even if someone does not want to shoot either game, they can go to a IDPA or USPSA club and shoot on the practice days. A club (like Richmond), offers a newbie safety class and then has open practice every Saturday. If they choose they can then shoot IDPA, USPSA or GGSF or some outlaw match.

The last IDPA match I shot, was about 70 or 80 rounds and I shooting (or running around) for less than 5 minutes. USPSA is not much better, except the round count is about double.
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Old 06-26-2018, 5:04 PM
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Gryff,


The last IDPA match I shot, was about 70 or 80 rounds and I shooting (or running around) for less than 5 minutes. USPSA is not much better, except the round count is about double.
As it stands now, I usually have to commit from 0830 until 1400 to shoot 8 stages with +/- 130 rounds in a total time of +/- 2 1/2 min of actual IDPA trigger time. That is with the match limited to 91 shooters plus SO's. Not the most efficient use of a weekend day. Multiply that by 3 or 4 matches a month and competition is a very inefficient use of time if you are just after trigger time.

I know the USPSA guys get more people at their matches and have a much higher round count but hey.. they shoot faster

We just received a survey from our MD on the issue this week. We will see what happens. I personally would be happy with reducing the match by a stage or two and getting out with half a day left for other pursuits.
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Old 06-26-2018, 5:38 PM
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8 is a lot of stages for a monthly match. The number of shooters per squad also is a factor. Afew of the local matches end around 2 or a little longer with tear down. One smaller match is done around noon or 12:30. It's nice to have the on day be shorter. We shoot 5 stages at 1 club and six at the other.
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Old 06-26-2018, 6:05 PM
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As it stands now, I usually have to commit from 0830 until 1400 to shoot 8 stages with +/- 130 rounds in a total time of +/- 2 1/2 min of actual IDPA trigger time. That is with the match limited to 91 shooters plus SO's. Not the most efficient use of a weekend day. Multiply that by 3 or 4 matches a month and competition is a very inefficient use of time if you are just after trigger time.

I personally would be happy with reducing the match by a stage or two and getting out with half a day left for other pursuits.
It depends. One of the clubs I shoot at twice a month is 3 hours drive time round trip. Add having to arrive at least 30-45 minutes prior to pay, gear up and walk the stages etc.. The overhead is almost 4 hours of time. I'd rather shoot as many stages as I can to reduce the overhead per stage .
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  #67  
Old 06-27-2018, 3:01 PM
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8 is a lot of stages for a monthly match.
As the weather heats up, I wish that were true.

Our monthly IDPA matches are 8 stages and our current goal is to have them maintain a Tier 3 level challenge. A light turn out is <115 shooters. That is why it isn't a big step up to run a Tier 4 mach for 200+ shooters.

We're doing pretty good when shooters start leaving at about 2:30, but to get everything torn down, results tallied, and raffle prizes handed out, we're looking closer to 4:30.

But hey, it is still a social thing where you get top catch up with friends.

Classification: As far as I'm concerned, I'm only shooting for the Division win at matches...although it looks like I'll have a couple of chances for a match bump this year
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Old 06-28-2018, 2:31 PM
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The 5x5 classifier is a simple, expedient way to get new shooters into the sport.

A new shooter shows up the morning to an IDPA match and can get classified in minutes vs waiting months.

I enjoy shooting IDPA, but IDPA is really for the more casual competitor, kinda like a USPSA minor league.
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Old 06-28-2018, 3:00 PM
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I enjoy shooting IDPA, but IDPA is really for the more casual competitor, kinda like a USPSA minor league.
Compared to USPSA, I would tend to agree.
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Old 06-28-2018, 3:44 PM
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I enjoy shooting IDPA, but IDPA is really for the more casual competitor, kinda like a USPSA minor league.
I would agree. The rules mandate that it is a less-intensive sport...and that's perfectly fine. Kind of like the difference between fast-pitch vs. slow-pitch softball. A lot of people who want to play aren't up for increased intensity. It's fantastic to have an option that is a little more simplified (and, thus, more approachable).

While I have my issues with the way the sport is run by its owners, I do hope that it continues to see some level of success.
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Old 06-28-2018, 6:06 PM
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..kinda like a USPSA minor league.
If you talk to some of the folks who were around when IDPA was birthed, they'll tell you that that was their understanding of the original intent...a feeder system for USPSA at a more reasonable cost.

It was only after that got sidetracked that USPSA introduced the Production class
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Old 06-28-2018, 6:09 PM
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Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post
If you talk to some of the folks who were around when IDPA was birthed, they'll tell you that that was their understanding of the original intent...a feeder system for USPSA at a more reasonable cost.

It was only after that got sidetracked that USPSA introduced the Production class
I've never heard that. I've always heard that the founders got fed up with needing multi-thousand dollar guns to be competitive, when that wasn't the original intent of IPSC.

And yes, when USPSA saw the explosive growth of IDPA, they realized that both Production and Single Stack classes were extremely viable.
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Old 06-28-2018, 6:44 PM
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.... Even a year later I am still Unclassified in USPSA. There is really no driver for me. I already know I am a mid-"C." The classifiers just validate that... But then again, I don't chase classifier matches just for the reason of getting classified....
USPSA just updated the High Hit Factors (HHF) for all classifiers. Previously GM level classifier scores are now high A. It will be interesting how you score going forward.
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Old 06-30-2018, 12:01 PM
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USPSA just updated the High Hit Factors (HHF) for all classifiers. Previously GM level classifier scores are now high A. It will be interesting how you score going forward.

I've seen a couple of discussions on this topic. It looks like it depends on what division you're looking at as to how much the new high hit factors adjusts classifications. Some people say it would change theirs a lot, others just a little. It also may affect the higher classifications more. I still don't know all the details on the change.
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Old 06-30-2018, 12:45 PM
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USPSA just updated the High Hit Factors (HHF) for all classifiers. Previously GM level classifier scores are now high A. It will be interesting how you score going forward.
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Originally Posted by SG29736 View Post
I've seen a couple of discussions on this topic. It looks like it depends on what division you're looking at as to how much the new high hit factors adjusts classifications. Some people say it would change theirs a lot, others just a little. It also may affect the higher classifications more. I still don't know all the details on the change.
Yes, found out about that from Down Range.

Looking at it, I'll definitely fall a notch, and be bucketed with "D" in Production.

I'm fine with a "D," not many expectations on performance...



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Originally Posted by HopetonBrown View Post
The 5x5 classifier is a simple, expedient way to get new shooters into the sport.

A new shooter shows up the morning to an IDPA match and can get classified in minutes vs waiting months.
Once the traditional classifier match comes out, I will again for it. Would like to see how I place, and if I really deserve EX.

Quote:
I enjoy shooting IDPA, but IDPA is really for the more casual competitor, kinda like a USPSA minor league.
Considering that I am only allowed one match a month (by the wife), and only use up 200-rounds in live round practice in a static square indoor range - maybe it would be best for me to remain in the minors...


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Old 06-30-2018, 9:04 PM
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USPSA just updated the High Hit Factors (HHF) for all classifiers. Previously GM level classifier scores are now high A. It will be interesting how you score going forward.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
Yes, found out about that from Down Range.

Looking at it, I'll definitely fall a notch, and be bucketed with "D" in Production.

I'm fine with a "D," not many expectations on performance...

UPDATE: Just ran my scores through the updated calculator (yeah, the USPSA website was somewhat "down" a few hours back). The only one "B"-class HF I had was downgraded to a mid-"C." Hence, this brings down my skillset from "mid"-C to a "low"-C. I just need one more classifier stage to get my official letter.

Interesting to note that while IDPA chooses to "dumb down" their classifiers, USPSA made it even more of a challenge. *SMH*


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Old 07-01-2018, 8:53 AM
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...
Interesting to note that while IDPA chooses to "dumb down" their classifiers, USPSA made it even more of a challenge. *SMH*
...
Solid B shooters used to shoot Master in IDPA classifiers. Now, it will be solid C shooters scoring Master.
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Old 07-01-2018, 3:36 PM
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Solid B shooters used to shoot Master in IDPA classifiers. Now, it will be solid C shooters scoring Master.
Are you a Master in IDPA??
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Old 07-01-2018, 6:33 PM
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Originally Posted by tanks View Post
Solid B shooters used to shoot Master in IDPA classifiers. Now, it will be solid C shooters scoring Master.
I've heard this a lot over the years, but it hasn't been true of the shooters I know. Many shooters only shoot one or the other. Most that I see that are B are Sharpshooter or Expert in IDPA. C's are usually marksman. Don't know how the new classifications will change things.
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Old 07-01-2018, 7:08 PM
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Are you a Master in IDPA??
I am not a solid B shooter, yet. Just recently made B. I'd have to be at least 10% better to be a solid B shooter. I have shot IDPA twice, one match with a regular a classifier a while back and made SS in SSP. If I shoot IDPA again, I will most likely shoot ESP though and use a CZ-SP01 with hammer pulled back and safety on as I shoot Limited in USPSA with a 2011 and more used to single action pistols for competition.
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