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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles. |
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#1
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6.5x47, 6.5 Creedmoor
Anyone recently embark on some extensive research and finally get around to picking up a 6.5x47 or 6.5 Creedmoor? I started off with the Ruger Precision and the Savage 10/110 BA STEALTH LH, onto some of the Cooper Firearms and now I'm looking at some SAKO beauties.
I'm looking to shoot targets and ground squirrels and I would like to aspire to shoot something 1200 yards out eventually. What do you 6.5x47, 6.5Creedmoor owners have, how do you like it and if you had to buy one again, would you have purchased a different make, and if so, which one?" I'm pretty serious about buying one so I'm going to set my budget at $3k. I think that should be plenty to fund the rifle (this is without a scope). Appreciate any feedback. Cheers, Last edited by macdows; 02-14-2018 at 8:10 PM.. Reason: . |
#2
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I have never heard of 6.5x47Creedmoor but have heard of 6.5Creedmoor and 6.5x47Lapua. So which is it?
EDIT; I see you fixed it. I have a Remington AAC-SD in 6.5Creedmoor and like it a lot.
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Live free or die trying! Last edited by 5.56Geo; 02-14-2018 at 8:14 PM.. |
#3
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I have a Ruger precision in 6.5 creedmor and I love it. Round is a laser and chassis is awesome. I would just steer you in the weight department to reflect your use. Chassis guns are heavy and even some hunting stocks can be heavy too. I've seen hunting rigs weight 14lbs.
I too looked at the savage 110 ba stealth LH. It's an awesome gun however for a chassis system it's pretty basic. You'd be better off going with a Savage 111 and buying a chassis. Just my .02$. Good luck.
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God, Guns & Integrity. Prioritize your Priorities. Last edited by etwinam; 02-15-2018 at 6:44 PM.. |
#4
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If you have a budget of $3k without scope, you should definitely not be picking up an off-the-shelf solution.
$800 Custom action ($1k if it's a really top-shelf one) $350 Custom barrel (could go for Remage system) $800 McMillan / Manners stock $200 Bottom metal $300 Atlas tall bipod $350 Gunsmithing (plus minus / discretionary fund) $2800 and you're still under budget
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MARKETPLACE feedback |
#5
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It used to be that the only reason to get a Lapua instead of a Creedmoor was that you really wanted to use lapua brass. Now that Lapua makes 6.5 Creedmoor brass, there is no longer a reason to build a new 6.5x47. At $3000, you can custom build a very nice rifle exactly how you want it. The key is deciding WHAT you want...
__________________
Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. |
#6
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6.5 Creedmoor has reasonably priced match factory ammo available.
6.5x47 Lapua is pretty much reload only proposition.
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Luck favors the prepared. The original battle plan did not survive initial contact with the enemy. "The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt |
#8
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Tikka t3x ctr 24" in 6.5 is a pretty nice gun for the money and quite a shooter.
Or get a TAC A1 if you don't mind spending more, it'll outperform a rpr all day long. Last edited by mulyhuntr; 02-15-2018 at 7:51 AM.. |
#9
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There are plenty of high-end on the shelf rifles you can get that have the same or similar components as "custom" builds. They just don't come with the hassles or long waits of a custom build. Additionally, many come with accuracy guarantees. Check out the Bergara LRP models. They have both chassis and stock models. Or the Masterpiece Arms BA and BA Lite models. Hell, for 3 grand you can get a Sako TRG 22.
Something else to look for - the Precision Rifle Series competition has a Production class intended to keep costs reasonable. The msrp on the gun cannot exceed $2000. So a number of manufacturers have models where they have tried to squeeze as much performance as possible into a given price. For example, Patriot Valley Arms is selling a Production Class rifle with a $1000 action! You would usually pay 3 grand or more to get a rifle with an action like that. Last edited by sigstroker; 02-15-2018 at 10:03 AM.. |
#10
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The only thing that makes a difference in the choice between 6.5x47 vs 6.5CM is if you want factory ammo or not. Other wise the two are so close it really doesn't matter. Just make your life easy and go with the CM.
The biggest things you pay for on a custom rifle over a factory rifle, is a quality chambering job, and better features or the feature you want. Good things are worth waiting for. Also not all gunsmiths take 6 months to build a rifle. Randal will put one together for you in one day. Yeah its a six hour drive between Dixon and Van Nuyes, but being able to go in with parts and go home with a finished gun is worth it. |
#11
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Thanks for the feedback, I'm leaning towards the 6.5 Creedmoor due to ease of use. It's always fun when you first start researching a new gun and I've been reading about the 6.5 Creedmoor now for a few years but now after having saved up for the rifle, I'm in "over-thinking mode" so I appreciate responses. I was flirting with the Lapua but it's true, it's just one more die and more boxes of bullets etc. and the cost is fairly reasonable (for me and my needs).
Does anyone own the Sako TRG 22? Last edited by macdows; 02-15-2018 at 10:22 AM.. Reason: . |
#13
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If you don't reload, then choose 6.5 Creedmoor. The selection of factory ammunition is way better. Every manufacturer is loading 6.5 Creedmoor now, from boutique loaders like Copper Creek to the major ammunition companies like Federal. Whereas for 6.5x47 Lapua, just Copper Creek and Lapua are your only choices. Now assuming you will reload, you could still choose 6.5 Creedmoor because of the more numerous options for brass, but Lapua-made 6.5 Creedmoor brass is still the best of your options. Lapua-made 6.5 Creedmoor brass is really well-made: Consistent weight, consistent neck wall thickness, ready to load out of the box. The case heads are really hard, with a small rifle primer pocket that will stay tight even after several really hot loadings. But be careful about switching between different brands of 6.5 Creedmoor brass: good loads that I worked up in Lapua brass would pierce primers when the same load was tried in Hornady and Starline brass. It was not due to differences in case capacity between the brands, they were close enough and Lapua actually had the lowest capacity: Lapua 52.8, Starline 53.0, Hornady 53.5 grains of water. I think it is due to the small diameter 0.062" flash holes of the Lapua brass versus the standard diameter 0.080" flash holes of the Hornady and Starline brass (my Starline brass has small rifle primer pockets but standard flash holes). The small flash hole might mitigate the level of pressure that the primer cup receives. So using Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor brass raises another issue: you need to decap them with a special small pin. A standard decapping pin diameter is 0.075" and these would smash open the Lapua flash hole. The nice thing about 6.5x47 Lapua is that the brass always has a small flash hole, so the dies for it always have a small diameter decapping pin. 6.5 Creedmoor can also push the 140-grain class bullets about 50-150 fps faster than 6.5x47 Lapua for the same pressure level, depending on what powder you're using. However, there are still some advantages to choosing 6.5x47 Lapua over the 6.5 Creedmoor. 6.5x47 Lapua has slightly less case capacity (we are talking about 5.5 grains of water or about 3 grains of powder difference between the two cartridges), and while you do lose that 50-150 fps in muzzle velocity you do gain some barrel life. I have not yet shot out a 6.5 barrel yet, but I would estimate that my Krieger 6.5x47 Lapua barrel will make it to 3000-3500 rounds, while my Criterion/Remage 6.5 Creedmoor barrel will make it to 2500 or so. I load my ammunition in batches of 200, and every time I load a new batch I check the throat of the barrel with a Hornady bullet comparator to determine the new seating depth. I load ammo for 6x47 Lapua, 6 Creedmoor, 6.5x47 Lapua and 6.5 Creedmoor. The throats of the barrels chambered for 'x47 Lapua cartridges just seem to grow slower than the throats for the corresponding Creedmoor cartridge, i.e. the 6x47 Lapua is easier on the throat than 6 Creedmoor and the 6.5x47 Lapua is easier on the throat than 6.5 Creedmoor. Keep in mind that I tumble-coat my bullets in hexagonal boron nitride (HBN) which is supposed to extend barrel life somewhat. Shooting normal uncoated bullets may erode the throat faster than these observed rates. My Approximate Observed Elongation of Throat / CBTO per every 200 rounds: 308 Winchester: 0.005" 6.5x47 Lapua: 0.010" 6.5 Creedmoor: 0.013" 6x47 Lapua: 0.018" 6 Creedmoor: 0.020" So that brings up another issue with the 6.5 Creedmoor: over the accurate life of the barrel the throat will elongate by about 0.125" to 0.150". If you chase the lands as the barrel throat wears you will eventually run out of room in an AICS short action magazine, which is limited to about 2.850 - 2.900". Most 140 grain bullets seat in the 6.5 Creedmoor at 2.800" but the longer ones such as the Berger 140 Hybrid start at 2.850" when seated to the lands in a new chamber. Halfway through the life of your barrel, you would need to make a decision: A) stop chasing the lands or B) stop feeding from a magazine and start single loading or C) switch to a shorter bullet that still fits in the magazine when seated to the lands The 6.5x47 case length at 1.850" is shorter than the 6.5 Creedmoor case at 1.920". That extra 0.070" of room in the magazine is enough to allow you to chase the lands for the life of the barrel, even if you are shooting a long 140 grain bullet. It's funny, 1600 or 2000 or even 3000 rounds sounds like way more than enough barrel life, but if you start to favor a rifle and you shoot it at every range trip, that 1000th round or 2000th round mark creeps up on you sooner than you think. |
#14
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i wanted to type out something similar but dont have the time...i shot a 260 for several yrs also played with a 260AI for a few months then shot a 6CM for 2-2.5yrs and just switched to the 47...ive got 1580 rounds through the first barrel and absolutely love this cartridge....ray charles could load for and shoot this thing LOL. i dont think there is much that will not shoot out of a 47...ive shot 130 and 140g nosler RDFs...140g ELDMs...130 and 140g berger hybrids and soon ill try some 130g JLKs...i chose the berger hybrids over the other but mostly because ive shot a truck load of them and know how they react in the wind ECT....the 140g ELDMs shot well enough the i bought 3000 of them. i also know a few guys back east that shoot in the PRS series that shoot 47s...last time i talked to them one of them had 3600 through his 47 and was still a solid 1/2 to 3/4" gun. the 6.5CM is a fantastic round but IMHO the 47 has a few advantages over CM. |
#15
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I looked at the RPR, Bergara, and the Tikka before decided on the Tikka Tac A1 in 6.5 creedmoor. The availability of good match quality ammo for 6.5 cd has expanded by a considerable degree in the past few years. You could get something like the T3x with a 24" barrel and decide later if you want to upgrade to a better stock/chassis as you shoot it more.
A full custom gun built by a gunsmith may certainly get you a rifle that shoots tighter groups, and will be priced accordingly. Not a bad way to go if you're the type that keeps guns for a long time. |
#16
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__________________
Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. |
#17
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Why do you say in post #5 there’s no reason to build a 47 when you say they are so close to ignore the differences? I’m not calling you out so don’t take it that way as I know you know your sh-t but why do you think the CM is the end all? I agree it’s a fantastic cartridge there is no disputing the 6.5CM...personally I like the idea of 3k+ barrel life after coming from a 260 and 6CM...I also like that the 47 uses 2-3g less powder...I like that it is just ridiculously accurate with everything I’ve fed it...I like that after 1600 rounds I’ve only lost .016 out of the throat and that’s including several 30 round strings...I also like that the 47 loves the easier to find powders...varget,RL-15,4166 as well as the good old standards 4350,4831,4451. There’s just a lot to like about the 47...it’s not a hot rod but it does hold its own. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
#18
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If you have a pretty good idea of what you want and go custom, you won’t have to upgrade anything at a later date. With a custom you can even order a barrel from the smith at a later date and have it chambered without having to send you gun back. They mail you the barrel, you install it with some basic tools. So in the future you’ll have almost no down time.
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#19
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Lynn Dragoman, Jr. Southwest Regional Director Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA) www.unlimitedrange.org Not a commercial business. URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards! |
#20
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I ditched my 6.5 creedmoor and sold the barrel and en route to me by my gunsmith, is a 27" Brux Heavy Palma barrel chambered in 6 Dasher (Lapua brass version) that is going to slay...when/if I get to shoot a tactical match and not a F-Class match.
If I had to decide for you, I would say 6.5x47 Lapua. Speed is overrated. Accuracy is key. I have seen more 6.5x47 guns shoot better than 6.5 creedmoor and you don't use as much powder.
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Visit- www.barrelcool.com The Original Chamber Flag and Barrel Cooler in 1 Instagram: barrelcool_ |
#22
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With the advent of creedmoor lapua brass , I would not build a 6.5x47 anymore.
__________________
Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. |
#23
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Plus, we don't know what purpose the OP has beyond shooting at some targets. If he just cares about 1 moa accuracy, the barrels might be fine for 5000 rounds or more. Quote:
I know people in this forum love to bench race (car racing term) but at times it gets a little silly. |
#24
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i shot 24 rounds last saturday...130G RDFs...12 with H4350 12 with 4831sc...the 4831sc did not shoot a 3 shot group over 3/4" 2 groups were in the mid to high .3s and the fastest load was 2620...the 4350 did not preform quite as well with two groups opening up to about 1" due to a flyer(most likely me)but the other 2 were about a 1/2" and the fastest load was 2660 i think. the point is the 47 is not picky...ive ran it from just under 2600 up to 2820 but out of a 23" barrel(2800 is a little warm)and as i said everything ive fed it shoots well enough that i would not be afraid to shoot it in a match...i settled on 2750...as far as barrel life goes you just never know...i hot rodded a 260 and it shot well into the 2600 count...i also had a 260 barrel go south at 850 rounds at 900 rounds it was so bad i pulled it and sent it back. |
#25
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do you even own shoot or load for a 6.5CM? i remember you talking about buying a 6.5CM did that ever happen? again im not trying to call you out or argue with you im just pointing out the facts...if you think a custom built rifle dont come with an accuracy guarantee your wrong...do you think Randall(or any custom smith for that matter)would be in business long if his rifles were being out done by a factory guns? if factory guns are just as good or better than a custom then why is EVERYONE not shooting them? i mean ive got right around $6000 grand tied up in my comp rifle and thats including the scope...dont you think that if i could buy a factory rifle for half that price and be competitive i would? im not rich im a roofer...i have a house and car payment and have a family...i started this whole game with factory rifles...savages as a matter of fact and after spending at least a $1000-$1500 bucks try to up grade the savages and getting my a$s handed to me several times because of failure to feeds/failure to extracts F'd up triggers ECT i saved my money and built off a surgeon action...my first match with that build i shot a 36 outta 40 and have been in the top 5 at just about every match ive shot since so theres got to be something to a custom rifle. |
#26
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Longrange1
This is CalGuns were Tikka mossbergs savages Howa's and Harrington&Richardson's out of the box will outshoot any Benchrest rifle with Wal-Mart bulk ammo. For the serious posters and viewers here look at the equipment lists from the type of shooting you will be doing. The guys in the top 10 usually have a dozen plus rifles and gravitate to the Top of the heap quickly or they don't win. If all you want is accuracy and don't care about anything else look at a Benchrest forum. If you want accuracy and plan on shooting long strings without any other concerns look at the F-Class forums If you need accuracy but portability and functioning in adverse conditions look at the PRS forums. I hunt with Benchrest style gear and believe me something small can lock up a rifle and cost you a good buck. Luckily I get to shoot at 4-5 decent bucks each year if I have to so messing up doesn't ruin my season. For most it would.
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Lynn Dragoman, Jr. Southwest Regional Director Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA) www.unlimitedrange.org Not a commercial business. URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards! Last edited by LynnJr; 02-16-2018 at 5:45 AM.. |
#27
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oh i know...it only took me a few thousand dollars and a couple of seasons to figure this out LOL!!
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#28
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Shooting factory ammunition in a nice custom rifle is not unheard of. There is a guy on here, FourT6and2, who shoots matches with a custom rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor using factory Hornady ELD Match ammuntion, and he seems to be doing just fine. Here's a thread he started, showing what his rifle is capable of with factory ammunition. The thread shows another guy's rifle that also shoots amazing groups with factory ammunition. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1398671 Some rifles will shoot only some factory loads well. Other rifles will shoot a wide variety of loads into little bugholes. It's just the luck of the draw sometimes. Once I get into the 0.5 MOA range of my load development, I call it good-to-go, and I will stick with that load as long as it keeps grouping at that level. Especially 6mm barrels that only last 1600-2000 rounds, I don't want to use up half of it's life just doing load development. I'd be like "Ah, I've found the perfect load. Now I can shoot this rifle 800 more times then I'll have to re-barrel and start over again. " Unless tweaking and fiddling around is just what you enjoy doing, and I have those phases too. Last edited by jimmykan; 02-16-2018 at 10:22 AM.. |
#29
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I will reload for the 6.5 Creedmoor.
I'm now looking at the https://gundigest.com/reviews/rifles...e-model-10-grs There's a slim chance that I will go with Wheeler Accuracy out of Montana, but I'm not sure I'm ready to make all those phone calls and spend the next month plus researching for a custom made rifle. I really just want to own a 6.5 Creedmoor (6.5x47 maybe later) for now. |
#30
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JimmyKahn
If you buy your own reamer you don't have to do load work up every time you put a new barrel on.
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Lynn Dragoman, Jr. Southwest Regional Director Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA) www.unlimitedrange.org Not a commercial business. URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards! |
#31
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Alex does top notch work. Ask him what he thinks. He will steer you in the right direction.
110, stealth, cooper. Skip the sako and go custom. Might as well get the best. 3k can get you a really nice rifle. |
#32
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Sounds like your barrel is too short.
If you had a proper 26" barrel, 2825 with 140gr class bullets is the sweet spot. Your shorter barrel will obviously have a slower sweet spot, but the wear on the throat is the same if you are running the same pressures/loads as a longer barrel.
__________________
Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. |
#33
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What I do see top shooters have is lots of barrels... Quote:
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Alex does great work. I had him do a barrel for me for F-Open and it shot well. He will most likely steer you into a 6 BRA, 6 Dasher or something like that based on his post (targets, ground squirrels and targets out to 1,200 yards). He is also a fan of Borden actions if you are looking into a custom action. I prefer BAT actions myself, but to each their own.
__________________
Visit- www.barrelcool.com The Original Chamber Flag and Barrel Cooler in 1 Instagram: barrelcool_ |
#34
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Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
If you want accuracy and plan on shooting long strings without any other concerns look at the F-Class forums I don't agree with this. We have to be able to get a gun to shoot long strings accurately with the barrel hear in mind, and over a good amount of time. We can't machine gun down the rounds in a stable condition sometimes 20-30 seconds like in long range BR and we do not get sighters in between shots nor can we "tune" loads between strings in short range BR. In F-Class, we have to read the wind over a period of ~4+ minutes (and thats shooting as fast as you can, with a fast puller). I could have written that a little more clearly. In Benchrest Accuracy is the ONLY concern. In F-Class you need to get your 20 rounds off as accurately as possible but barrel wear barrel life are of NO concern for the Top Dogs. Accuracy is the most important thing for those 20 rounds was my point. Guys with National Titles and Records like the late Jerry Tierney have dozens of very accurate rifles not just one. I watched him swap out 4-5 rifles at a Benchrest National event until he made the lighter 17 pound weight limit then go on to win the match with his 4-5 choice. On my record setting 6 Dasher lightgun I used barrels from Lilja,Shilen,Hart,Brux,Kreiger,Rock Creek and Bartlein and the load and the seating depth remained the same for well over 2 dozen barrels. Velocity varied less than 30fps for the worst case spread of all those barrels.
__________________
Lynn Dragoman, Jr. Southwest Regional Director Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA) www.unlimitedrange.org Not a commercial business. URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards! |
#35
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So true, I need to get my own reamer(s). This would solve another problem I have: I used once-fired 6.5x47 Lapua brass to form 6x47 Lapua for another rifle. Worked fine. Then I wanted to build another 6x47 Lapua from a pre-fit Criterion Remage barrel, but the fired/full-length-resized brass cannot fully chamber in the Criterion barrels, the area of the fired brass near the base has expanded to .471 which is no problem for the first two chambers, but the Criterion chamber is .470 and my sizing die can not size that far down the case body. I will have to either get a case head swaging die from CH4D or I will have to start over with virgin 6.5x47 Lapua brass. That would be a shame because the current batch of brass is still going strong, shooting better than ever. |
#36
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Correct I do run shorter barrels...I’ve experimented with barrels from 30” down to 20” and for me 24” is the perfect balance...my current barrel is 23” the next and all future barrels will be 24” unless I build a F-class rifle this year for the SW nationals next year. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
#37
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This...I agree with I just put on a new barrel and my old one had 892 rounds. It is toast as far as I am concerned. All this talk about 1,500 plus rounds on a barrel makes me cringe, but then again those barrels aren't shot the same way we shoot them in F-Class. Barrel heat is what kills barrels and most don't get them smoking the way we do on a constant basis.
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Visit- www.barrelcool.com The Original Chamber Flag and Barrel Cooler in 1 Instagram: barrelcool_ |
#38
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I do...but I’m not shooting F-class...a 3/4 minute gun will get it done...I shoot 20-35 rounds strings pretty regularly in my practice sessions. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
#39
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My accuracy requirements are effectively 5-shots in one big hole at 100 yards (low-mid 2's) and X-ring vertical (5 inches) at 1,000 yards, so TRUE 1/2 MOA at 1,000 yards.
__________________
Visit- www.barrelcool.com The Original Chamber Flag and Barrel Cooler in 1 Instagram: barrelcool_ |
#40
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I didn’t mean a 3/4 minute gun would get it done in F-class I meant for the tactical type shooting I do... one of the matches I shoot we shoot 15 in 110 seconds...3 stages 15 rounds each...standing and kneeling shot off barricades and prone off a bipod... 60sec 6 rounds 30sec 3 rounds 15sec 3 rounds 5sec 3 rounds...and yes I can get 3 rounds off with impacts out of a bolt gun...this match is geared toward gas guns...I took 2nd in the two matches I shot last year with a bolt gun and I will take a couple of 1st places this year! 3.5 minutes for 20...that leaves time for a snack lol! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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