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Optics, Mounts, Rails and Sights If it aims your firearm, post about it here.

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  #1  
Old 03-06-2018, 1:10 PM
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Default Why are scope main body tubes not wider or even closer to the size of the Bell?

So I guess as the title States, I'm curious on why the main tube of a scope would not be the same size as the bell and objective? I've tried to figure out optically why it wouldn't make sense for a scope company to make a bigger main tube and put thinner turrets rather than big tall tourettes on a skinny body. It could allow for a much higher degree of movement of the radical, and it could make it much clearer in theory. Anyway, just a curious thought on why do you think the main tube of a scope is the size that it is typically 30 mm or 35 for the bigger stuff????
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Old 03-06-2018, 1:25 PM
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Well, you'd have a bunch of giant lenses in there for one thing. The scopes would be very heavy. And of course the rings would also have to be extremely large and heavy. Probably not an issue on an anti-tank gun, but on something you need to carry around a bit?

But maybe the short answer is that modern rifle scopes don't need a big fat cylinder to work extremely well. The 35 and 40mm tubed scopes that I know of are specialized for ultra long range shooting: tons of elevation adjustment and larger, much more expensive glass. So... having good lenses of a bigger size than "normal" might help with that, as you were thinking.

But I'll say that I'm no expert in optics either. Just applying my own 'common sense'.
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Old 03-06-2018, 1:44 PM
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The objective lens shrinks and focuses the viewed image down to a smaller size, so the image does not need a big center tube to travel through.

All lens loose some light as the light passes through them.
The larger the lens, the more light makes it through.
This is why scopes that work better at dusk or dawn in low light have a larger objective lens.

So much of this is affected by the quality of the lens glass, polish, coatings and mechanical designs that there are quality scopes with small objective lens size that see surprising well in low light.
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Old 03-06-2018, 2:19 PM
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Waste of money and extra weight.


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Old 03-06-2018, 3:01 PM
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Someone needs to photoshop a rifle scope with a 50mm main body.

That'd be a 'sight' to see
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Old 03-06-2018, 3:17 PM
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And not necessarily just a tube as big as the objective, but just as big as the bell Maybe. I'm curious on why it doesn't have like a 40 mmmm tube all the way down and open up to a 50 at the end. Does anybody have a valid Hardware reason why it couldn't be done
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Old 03-06-2018, 3:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bombadillo View Post
And not necessarily just a tube as big as the objective, but just as big as the bell Maybe. I'm curious on why it doesn't have like a 40 mmmm tube all the way down and open up to a 50 at the end. Does anybody have a valid Hardware reason why it couldn't be done
Realistically?

And not because I know better, but there's no need.

People are shooting ELR with currently existing scopes IE scopes with 30mm, 34mm, etc.

Some people don't like the fact that the newly introduced Zero Compromise Optic bodies are 36mm; few rings/mounts exist for 36mm and they're expensive.

Bottom line, 34mm already gets the job done.
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my gun shoots better with shiny brass...plus not only does the shiny brass make me look like a pimp at the range if the sun catches it just right it blinds the guy next to me which improves my odds of winning the match.
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Old 03-07-2018, 9:34 AM
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Because scopes would look funny.
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Old 03-07-2018, 9:37 AM
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They exist.
They are called Sighting Scopes and are mounted on Tripods.
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Old 03-07-2018, 10:59 AM
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Curvature is what makes a lens work. As you increase the diameter of the lens, the thickness has to increase as well to maintain the same curve. For a given power, increasing lens diameter by 50% probably more than triples the weight of the lens. Who wants a fat, 5lb. scope that only transmits 3% more light than a 20oz skinny model?
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Old 03-08-2018, 8:03 AM
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The scope you describe exists. Be it in bandwidth or light, it is about throughput. The smallest point/tightest window/bottleneck is the weakest link in the chain.

But as has been already stated, making something that big durable enough to use on a scope, translates into weight. For LR shooting this is worthwhile. I have a two and a half pound scope and mount on a nearly twenty pound LR rifle. This is fine. Would I put that glass and mount on an AR-10, probably not.

There are scopes with 40mm main tubes and 50 or 56mm objective lens. IOR makes a series of scopes for LR shooting with 40mm main tubes. Those have 50mm or 56mm objective lenses. They are good quality precision instruments. They are Romanian made. IOR has, and continues to make scopes for sniper rifles in Com Bloc countries since before WWII. They are very nice, very durable instruments. But they are heavy and they are pricey.

That said, sit behind a rifle scope and look through the glass. The difference between good quality scope with 30mm main tube and a good quality scope with a 34mm main tube is often night & day huge. The bigger tubes also make the physics of the lens array possible to have less color shift in the larger tube. But there is often a commensurate difference price as well. The differences between a scope with a 34mm main tube and a 40mm main tube and the difference is just as large.

What range are you shooing at? I encourage you to pay attention to the quality of the glass and the mechanical accuracy/repeatability of turret adjustment of the scope rather than just the zoom range or size of tube/objective bell.

Quality glass is not cheap. But it is a one time expense. But be careful. Latching onto particular buzzwords or spec, i.e. the diameter of the main tube or objective bell in this case is a recipe for a poor decision driven by marketing. Depending upon your price range it might behoove you to get a better quality scope with higher quality small lens arrays or main tube.

Lots of folks on here who have forgotten more about this than I know. So you're in the right place to ask questions.

Last edited by sfarchitect; 03-08-2018 at 8:13 AM..
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Old 03-08-2018, 1:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bombadillo View Post
And not necessarily just a tube as big as the objective, but just as big as the bell Maybe. I'm curious on why it doesn't have like a 40 mmmm tube all the way down and open up to a 50 at the end. Does anybody have a valid Hardware reason why it couldn't be done
Who says they don't don't exist? Here's a scope with a 40mm tube and a 56mm objective. And it only weighs three pounds.

http://www.valdada.com/5-8-40x56-40m...illum-reticle/

Nice video review of the above beast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twLgOIq1xVg
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Old 03-08-2018, 1:59 PM
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And here is a nice review (Tiborosaurus Rex) of another high-end IOR scope, their 4-28x 40mm x 50mm Recon. There are a few choices of big fatty scopes if you have $3K-4K to spend on one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrwYMynnIa4
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  #14  
Old 03-08-2018, 8:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scotty99 View Post
Curvature is what makes a lens work. As you increase the diameter of the lens, the thickness has to increase as well to maintain the same curve. For a given power, increasing lens diameter by 50% probably more than triples the weight of the lens. Who wants a fat, 5lb. scope that only transmits 3% more light than a 20oz skinny model?
BR rail gun guys =)
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Old 03-09-2018, 5:53 AM
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A what kinda gun? Are you talking about a railgun? Or a railway gun?

Either way, it's along the line of what I'd also said up top. Mounted on an anti-tank gun (in a turret etc.) who cares about weight.

Some of those Ultra LR rifle scopes are pushing four pounds though.
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Old 03-10-2018, 6:19 PM
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How about the March Genesis, OP?? Only $5,000 + $50 for shipping.



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March Genesis 6-60x56mm Specifications:

– 400 MOA of total elevation travel with Zero-set feature (300 up, 100 down)
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— Eye relief 67-82mm and exit pupil 3.3mm at 6X to 0.93mm
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Old 03-12-2018, 4:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ki6vsm View Post
A what kinda gun? Are you talking about a railgun? Or a railway gun?

Either way, it's along the line of what I'd also said up top. Mounted on an anti-tank gun (in a turret etc.) who cares about weight.

Some of those Ultra LR rifle scopes are pushing four pounds though.
Benchrest rail guns. Not rail gun in the physics sense, but riding on rails nonetheless.

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Old 03-12-2018, 4:42 PM
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lenses yo- refraction yo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL9J3Km6wxI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6mLLaqLdvg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-XAolo9xz8
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Old 03-12-2018, 4:44 PM
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Old 03-12-2018, 4:48 PM
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why make them bigger than needed?

telescopes at home are one diameter.... and weight is not an issue nor impact/ durability
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Old 03-12-2018, 5:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ojisan View Post
The objective lens shrinks and focuses the viewed image down to a smaller size, so the image does not need a big center tube to travel through.
This. Once the first lens gathers the light and bends it towards the second lens, a large diameter lens is no longer needed. The first lens gathers the light. The rest of the lenses then do the rest of the job once they get that light.
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Old 03-12-2018, 7:15 PM
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Originally Posted by joefrank64k View Post
How about the March Genesis, OP?? Only $5,000 + $50 for shipping.





http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...moa-elevation/


Now HERE'S what I'm talking about!!!! 5k though OUCH!!!
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Old 03-13-2018, 8:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelthepsycho View Post
Benchrest rail guns. Not rail gun in the physics sense, but riding on rails nonetheless.
Ah. Wow, I've never seen one of those. Probably shoots tight groups.
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Old 03-13-2018, 8:44 AM
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Weight is one reason
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Old 03-13-2018, 2:26 PM
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Now HERE'S what I'm talking about!!!! 5k though OUCH!!!
A couple of comments:

-that box in the center has nothing to do with the size of the lenses. That scope has extremely large adjustment range using an external gumbal which is what you are seeing
-making the tube the size of the objective or eyepiece is largely pointless and would not give you anything
-this is not a waterhose and tube diameter has nothing to do with light throughput in a modern optical design
-IOR makes a few scopes for tube fetishists and you can gamble on one if you are so inclined. I have a long history with IOR scopes and I finally gave up on them a few years ago.
-Tiborasaurus Rex sounds very convincing When talking about optics he occasionally gets something right, but that seems to be largely accidental (I exaggerate for comedic effect, but he is not an optics guy and does not seem to understand particularly well how scopes work). I havn't the foggiest idea of his level of expertise on non-optics related subjects as I havn't watched those videos.

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Old 03-13-2018, 4:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koshkin View Post
A couple of comments:

-IOR makes a few scopes for tube fetishists and you can gamble on one if you are so inclined. I have a long history with IOR scopes and I finally gave up on them a few years ago.
-Tiborasaurus Rex sounds very convincing When talking about optics he occasionally gets something right, but that seems to be largely accidental (I exaggerate for comedic effect, but he is not an optics guy and does not seem to understand particularly well how scopes work). I havn't the foggiest idea of his level of expertise on non-optics related subjects as I havn't watched those videos.

ILya
http://opticsthoughts.com/?page_id=122
Yeah. Well, that other guy has a British accent. A BRITISH ACCENT! He must know what he's talking about.

I will take your word for it Ilya. What do I know. Most I ever paid for a scope is about $480, for an SWFA 3-9x on sale. That's as much money as I'm willing to put toward this hobby on one set of glass.
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Old 03-14-2018, 2:34 PM
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Yeah. Well, that other guy has a British accent. A BRITISH ACCENT! He must know what he's talking about.

I will take your word for it Ilya. What do I know. Most I ever paid for a scope is about $480, for an SWFA 3-9x on sale. That's as much money as I'm willing to put toward this hobby on one set of glass.
Unfortunately for me, Russian accent does not command nearly the same respect. I do get asked occasionally if I tried to influence the election, to which I proudly say yes, since I went and voted.

Since I live in California, my attempt to influence the election did not do anything, but I tried anyway.

ILya
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Old 03-15-2018, 4:35 AM
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Unfortunately for me, Russian accent does not command nearly the same respect. I do get asked occasionally if I tried to influence the election, to which I proudly say yes, since I went and voted.

Since I live in California, my attempt to influence the election did not do anything, but I tried anyway.

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Lol
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Old 03-15-2018, 7:27 AM
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Originally Posted by koshkin View Post
Unfortunately for me, Russian accent does not command nearly the same respect. I do get asked occasionally if I tried to influence the election, to which I proudly say yes, since I went and voted.

Since I live in California, my attempt to influence the election did not do anything, but I tried anyway.

ILya
Of course, I can't read your writings again ever, without images of Ivan Drago from Rocky IV, going through my head. I can see you now, twisting and yanking on all the scopes you test, in Russian accent, "I must break you."
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Old 03-15-2018, 8:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koshkin View Post
Unfortunately for me, Russian accent does not command nearly the same respect. I do get asked occasionally if I tried to influence the election, to which I proudly say yes, since I went and voted.

Since I live in California, my attempt to influence the election did not do anything, but I tried anyway.

ILya
Not the same respect, but perhaps a more extreme level of respect! Maybe you've not seen Trevor Noah's standup bit on the Russian accent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmiNofgjCs4

Hope you don't take offense. It's all in fun. BTW, my girlfriend watched the above bit and was in hysterics. She's from Russia originally, so I hear the accent quite a lot. She's been here for almost 20 years so hers is not as strong as some other people's. Like our friend from Odessa who's been in the US about 25 years, and I find myself straining to understand him.
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Old 03-15-2018, 10:30 AM
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Not the same respect, but perhaps a more extreme level of respect! Maybe you've not seen Trevor Noah's standup bit on the Russian accent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmiNofgjCs4

Hope you don't take offense. It's all in fun. BTW, my girlfriend watched the above bit and was in hysterics. She's from Russia originally, so I hear the accent quite a lot. She's been here for almost 20 years so hers is not as strong as some other people's. Like our friend from Odessa who's been in the US about 25 years, and I find myself straining to understand him.

Damn. Never knew Trevor Noah could actually be funny, but this clip is.

I've been here for a bit over 27 years now. I talk about optics and all that sort of stuff in front of the camera and post it on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/ikoshki..._as=subscriber

I do not think my accent is all that scary. Definitely not when I am speaking.

ILya
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Old 03-15-2018, 2:14 PM
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Damn. Never knew Trevor Noah could actually be funny, but this clip is.

I've been here for a bit over 27 years now. I talk about optics and all that sort of stuff in front of the camera and post it on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/ikoshki..._as=subscriber

I do not think my accent is all that scary. Definitely not when I am speaking.

ILya
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Actually I did watch some of your videos recently. And I've read numerous posts by you on Optics Talk and elsewhere. From the videos we can tell your Slavic, or at least Eastern European. No big deally. Just don't go around in a track suit, driving a chyorny jeep.

Regarding Trevor Noah's bit, I couldn't find the funniest part. It's where he demonstrates how a young woman can "tap into her inner Russian" to get rid of an annoyingly persistent guy at a nightclub. Must be buried in one of his full-show videos.
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Old 03-16-2018, 7:46 AM
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koshkin koshkin is offline
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Originally Posted by Ki6vsm View Post
Actually I did watch some of your videos recently. And I've read numerous posts by you on Optics Talk and elsewhere. From the videos we can tell your Slavic, or at least Eastern European. No big deally. Just don't go around in a track suit, driving a chyorny jeep.

Regarding Trevor Noah's bit, I couldn't find the funniest part. It's where he demonstrates how a young woman can "tap into her inner Russian" to get rid of an annoyingly persistent guy at a nightclub. Must be buried in one of his full-show videos.
No worries there. I do not wear a track suit or own a black jeep. I do own a track suite and I drive a blue FJ Cruiser. I guess if I need to intimidate someone, I'll get the track suit out and spray paint my car. It might come in handy when my daughter becomes a teenager.

ILya
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