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  #81  
Old 09-13-2018, 9:43 AM
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Originally Posted by The Duke View Post
For those of you who believe in hell, do you believe that people who's souls end up in hell are:

A) big time dirt bags in real life, i.e., serial killers child abusers, etc., or

B) those that deny Jesus Christ, or

C) both?

If you believe the pedos, Dahmer, Hitlers and Clinton's will burn forever, didn't Jesus die for ALL of our sins? Or was there a list he submitted of exceptions? Do you believe that Jesus' sacrifice was only worth absolving white collar criminals, petty criminals and average Jerks? Is that all God's only born son was worth?

If you believe that anyone who rejects God goes to hell, do you believe that all the mass killers who repented, all the child murderers who had death row conversions, and all the dead human traffickers who God fearingly wore gold crosses around their necks are sitting in heaven, yet the Dalai Lama, Gandhi and every Rabbi will rot In hades for eternity?

And as a bonus question; for those of you who feel your beloved Aunt Percy is 'smiling down from heaven' and that Osama Bin Laden is 'rotting in hell', then you must believe that God has somehow already passed judgment on all dead people and is doing so on a rolling basis? For you, do you still believe in the biblical judgement day? Do you believe there will be a second coming? What would be the purpose, in your mind, if God's already sorting and filing all the souls as they come in? Seems kind of redundant and unnecessary to me.
Whether anyone likes it or believes it or not, the bible is clear that ALL of mankind is guilty of sin from birth (original sin) and that comes from Adam's disobedience in the garden. That sin tainted all humans forever such that we are born enemies of God and the punishment for sin is death and eternity in hell. So the awesome neighbor you had that did great things with his life to help others and the pedophile on the news are doomed to hell just from their birth alone, regardless of what they've done in life.

Christ's work on the cross is the only means of redemption for anyone, with absolutely zero exceptions. Someone once explained it to me this way: We are all born enemies of God and running away from him. But through Christ's sacrifice God has effectively changed our nature and turned us around such that we are running towards Him. Only those who are covered in Christ's blood go to heaven and it's through absolutely no merit of their own.

I would go further and say that the bible does not teach that Christ died for the entire world, he died for those that God predestined to be saved. So the awesome neighbor and the pedophile may or may not be saved, based on God's plan... which is not to appease mankind in any way even though that is sometimes a part of the plan. I think the idea that God isn't necessarily working for the sole purpose of helping us is off-putting to many, just because of our nature to be self-centered. but that's a whole other topic within the church.

I do believe that God has made judgements on those that are dead. When Christ dies and goes to hell he sees Judas there... so clearly judgement had been made on him. Similarly I believe those that are saved will go to heaven once dead.

I do believe there will be a final day of judgement, because I don't believe the plight of man will continue as-is forever. I think that souls in heaven are actually not in their final glorified state as they wait for Christ's second coming and the creation of the new heaven and new earth.

God's only son is worth more than the cost of all mankind, but I don't think Christ died for all of mankind, but only those predestined to be saved. He made a sacrifice exactly as needed to save those that would enter heaven and no more. This will include "good" people and the worst of the worst criminals in our eyes. But if He ded for everyone and not everyone was saved... wouldn't that be a failure of the sacrifice Christ made? I think so, and I don't believe He suffered in vain.
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  #82  
Old 09-13-2018, 10:24 AM
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And where did you come up with that mumbo jumbo?
First of all, that is what I believe.
Calling it mumbo jumbo is insulting.

If you are so interested in what I am talking about read about reincarnation and the law of cause and effect (Karma).
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  #83  
Old 09-13-2018, 10:54 AM
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First of all, that is what I believe.
Calling it mumbo jumbo is insulting.

If you are so interested in what I am talking about read about reincarnation and the law of cause and effect (Karma).

I for one have read and understand all about Karma and reincarnation but rejected it just as I have read all about and studied quiet a few religions. I am not your judge and would never presume to be. I am only able to save myself and barely that. I can share what I have learned and experienced but you are responsible for you. I or nobody else can convince you of anything. You have to come to belief of your own free will. Oh, I know those that try to force people into heaven. We called them "Bible Bangers" but that does not work just like the Catholics that forced Jews to convert or be burned alive. That is not true conversion of the heart. If you don't believe you don't believe and you have the free will to do so. God gave you that ability.
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  #84  
Old 09-13-2018, 12:04 PM
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Biblical text say if you don't work you don't eat. 2 Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat."

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me".

Romans 3:23English Standard Version for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

It is only by the covering of Jesus's shed blood to wash away our sins can we enter the presence of God because no sin can enter His presence without being destroyed. That was the whole purpose of Jesus becoming flesh and becoming the sacrificial lamb without blemish for all mankind for all have sinned and fallen short of the standard of the LAW. If you have even the smallest of sins you are condemned under the Law even one. Jesus came not to destroy the Law but to fulfill it for the sake of everyone. All anyone has to do is accept and acknowledge His sacrifice and their sin. You either believe or you don't the choice is totally in your hands.

In case you wonder, I spent a year at Ouachita Baptist University as well as a year and a half at Christ for the Nations Institute, Dallas, Texas, and was a youth pastor for an Assembles of God Church in Texas.
Yes. I've agreed with you twice. Why are you BOLDING at me?
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  #85  
Old 09-13-2018, 12:36 PM
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Yes. I've agreed with you twice. Why are you BOLDING at me?

I am just emphasizing the main points no meaning out side that. Sorry if you took an offense as I meant none.

You probably know that there are approximately a dozen scriptures that deal with homosexuality in the Bible however its not popular in today's society to talk about them as they do not support the worlds view so they are suppressed by modern society the World Council of Churches and all who wish to promote homosexuality. There are many subjects the world does not want the Bibles views widely published on for the same reasons.

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  #86  
Old 09-13-2018, 2:07 PM
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I am just emphasizing the main points no meaning out side that. Sorry if you took an offense as I meant none.

You probably know that there are approximately a dozen scriptures that deal with homosexuality in the Bible however its not popular in today's society to talk about them as they do not support the worlds view so they are suppressed by modern society the World Council of Churches and all who wish to promote homosexuality. There are many subjects the world does not want the Bibles views widely published on for the same reasons.
I agree with you and no offense was taken.
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  #87  
Old 09-13-2018, 4:38 PM
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If Charles Manson accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and savior on his death bed, does he get to go to heaven ?

How about the Rabi that dedicated his life for the good of others, yet Jesus Christ has no place in his life , does the Rabi go straight to the southern side ? These 2 simple questions leed me to believe this practice is doawed.
I can only assume you are asking about what the Bible says, not what people say, regarding salvation. Sometimes people do not like what the Bible says, sometimes people do not accept what the Bible says. This is inconsequential, it is neither here nor there; the scriptures still say what they say. So I am not going to offer an opinion or endorsement, I will just share what the scriptures say about your questions.

It seems the New Testament does indeed allow anyone who has become obedient to be saved, regardless of their past sins. These scriptures tell us that everyone has sinned, and any sin disqualifies a person from heaven. Therefore, forgiveness for all sins is necessary, regardless of their severity.

“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” – Romans 3:23

“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” – Romans 6:23

“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.” – Mark 16:16

“And Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’” – Acts 2:38

So, according to these scriptures, if Charles Manson had believed, repented and been baptized, he would find himself in heaven one day. Now, as for our good rabbi who has lived a good life, but never put Jesus in to his life:

“For except ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins” – John 8:24

“I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.” – John 14:6

“Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.” – Romans 5:9

“In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace,” – Ephesians 1:7

According to these scriptures, no one will go to heaven without Jesus and His sacrifice.

“And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved.” – Acts 4:12

“In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ” – 2 Thessalonians 1:8

This is an example I gave in my previous post in this thread:

Quote:
In Acts 10 Cornelius is described as a very good and religious man. Cornelius was a worshiper of the true God, he was a man of prayer, he was kindhearted and generous. But in spite of his faith and good deeds, Cornelius was not saved. This is evident by Acts 11:13,14 where He was told by an angel of God to send for Peter who could instruct him on how to be saved.

So it would seem that being a good person, or even a good religious person, does not contain the keys to the Kingdom. As much as we might dislike it or disagree, the Bible illustrates to us that there are people who have lived very good lives who will not find salvation and people who have done horrendous things that may find forgiveness.
Thanks for reading.
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  #88  
Old 09-13-2018, 4:43 PM
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How about my dog ? Does he get to go to heaven ? He has not accepted Jesus, nor has he repent. He has had a clean life.
Again, I am assuming you are asking what the Bible has to say on the matter. The Bible does not include dogs or cats or many other forms of life in it's discussion of eternal life. The message is in regards to man and his relationship with God. It is about our covenant with the Creator, not our dog's. We can only speculate about a covenant or lack thereof with other earthly beings. One thing we can know, is that pigs, at least, have a capacity for a soul (Matthew 8:30-33). But the important thing to remember, if we are concerned with what the Bible says, is that our pets are not subject to the same covenant that we humans are.
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Old 09-13-2018, 4:46 PM
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Matthew 7:6 6"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
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Old 09-13-2018, 5:17 PM
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Matthew 7:6 6"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
There is a good possibility that Christ was speaking euphemisticly and metaphorically in that statement. Deut.23:17&18 seems to show that the word "dog" may have a meaning other than what's normally accepted.
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Old 09-13-2018, 5:32 PM
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There is a good possibility that Christ was speaking euphemisticly and metaphorically in that statement. Deut.23:17&18 seems to show that the word "dog" may have a meaning other than what's normally accepted.

Oh, he was most definitely! Do you understand what he was saying?

In 2 Peter 2:22 dogs and swine quite clearly refers to heretics. Of what use is it to give sacred teachings to those that despise such things and hold them of no value? When you point out the sin of such people it enrages them and they tried to murder many of the Apostles and even Christ himself. Some think this verse is not about excluding some group from God's teaching, but rather ensuring that those things that are God's are kept holy. Thus the Temple is kept clean, religious meals treated with respect, and holy days honored and kept separate from the turbulence and impiety of daily life. What is your opinion?

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  #92  
Old 09-13-2018, 6:08 PM
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Well, IF Christ was speaking euphemisticly, and IF the "dog" of Deut.23:18 refers to the "sodomites" of v. 17. Then He MAY have been creating a group of people that should not be included in religious stuff.
IF that's the case, then Rev.22:15 may have serious implications for some people.
The euphemisms of the Hebrew language doesn't carry through in the Greek.
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  #93  
Old 09-13-2018, 6:11 PM
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Matthew 15:21-28 21Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "LORD, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly." 23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." 24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." 25The woman came and knelt before him. "LORD, help me!" she said. 26He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to the dogs." 27"Yes it is, LORD," she said. "Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master's table." 28Then Jesus said to her, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed at that moment.

Jesus came first to the Jews but was rejected so we non-Jews were grafted into the vine of David. The Jews were not rejected but made up the foundational generation of Christianity. One must learn the history of Christianity to know the Truth.

Even greater ramifications are found in Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."

Many who call themselves righteous people of God are actually workers of inequity putting their faith in rituals, religion, and works that benefit them nothing! They doom themselves! Look in the Book of Revelation at the Seven Churches described there and see if your Church fits the description of any one of them! Come soon Lord Jesus!!!

So everyone Knows I am a Christian Zionist! I stand with Israel! 110%

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  #94  
Old 09-14-2018, 9:31 AM
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hmmm, i guess i can go with some of that (these days)

but thinking about the origins of religion, and about how miserable life was for so many people back then...i think it was a pacifier.
it gave hope to those with nothing to lose, gave them a reason to persevere in this life to earn a better afterlife, and to act accordingly and not resort to criminal behavior.
I guess that all depends on when/where you were referring to. I would never assume that our ancestors lived in misery. If they did, none of us would be here to talk about it because miserable people don't procreate well. All archaeological and anthropological evidence suggests that prehistoric humans were about as healthy and happy a population as we've ever been. We had higher mortality but otherwise life was pretty good. Civilization, beginning about 10k years ago, brought famine, malnutrition, war & poverty on a scale we'd never known before. Mortality decreased somewhat but birth rates skyrocketed so civilization gave a survival advantage to those who practiced it. Religions that promoted civilization (Christianity being one of the later ones), certainly helped soothe the ills of civilization. But religion and spirituality far pre-date all that. Homo sapien is a religious animal. Praying and worshiping is one of the many quirky behaviors we have. It had a survival advantage in animistic religions (studying the land and wildlife makes for better hunter/gatherers) and it has a survival advantage in civilizations (group cohesion & deference to authority).
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Old 09-14-2018, 9:56 AM
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I for one have read and understand all about Karma and reincarnation but rejected it just as I have read all about and studied quiet a few religions. I am not your judge and would never presume to be. I am only able to save myself and barely that. I can share what I have learned and experienced but you are responsible for you. I or nobody else can convince you of anything. You have to come to belief of your own free will. Oh, I know those that try to force people into heaven. We called them "Bible Bangers" but that does not work just like the Catholics that forced Jews to convert or be burned alive. That is not true conversion of the heart. If you don't believe you don't believe and you have the free will to do so. God gave you that ability.
Well,...thanks for your reply and input.
So, you've read and understand about Karma but reject it. OK

You seem to suggest that I do not believe in...what, Christianity?
You'd be wrong there if you do.
FWIW, I consider myself a Christian.
Some judgemental types here would disagree with that though.
That's their problem.

There are references to Karma (Law of Cause and Effect) sprinkled in the Bible. Such as:
You reap what you sow...
Live by the sword, die by the sword...
...and others.
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Old 09-14-2018, 10:28 AM
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Well,...thanks for your reply and input.
So, you've read and understand about Karma but reject it. OK

You seem to suggest that I do not believe in...what, Christianity?
You'd be wrong there if you do.
FWIW, I consider myself a Christian.
Some judgemental types here would disagree with that though.
That's their problem.

There are references to Karma (Law of Cause and Effect) sprinkled in the Bible. Such as:
You reap what you sow...
Live by the sword, die by the sword...
...and others.

Well if your views don't line up with what the bible teaches then that's probably why.

And you reap what you sow is beyond karma and karma is not a biblical teaching God lets you know that. Example if I drink and drive and crash is that karma No that's common sense that drinking and driving have consequences it's what God is teaching us. He will bless you
When you do good and will allow bad to happen because that's the consequence when you commit sin.
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Old 09-14-2018, 12:03 PM
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First of all, that is what I believe.
Calling it mumbo jumbo is insulting.

If you are so interested in what I am talking about read about reincarnation and the law of cause and effect (Karma).
It seems that there is an implicit assumption that "discussions of faith" means "Discussions of Mainstream American Protestant Christianity." I find it interesting that if anybody outright called Protestant Christianity "mumbo jumbo," there would be cries of horror, persecution, calls for moderator intervention, etc. But toward any other belief system, all I can hear are crickets chirping. Too bad.
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Old 09-14-2018, 12:14 PM
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Many Christians claim that their god is a triune being -- Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Yet, their rhetoric sounds more like it has 4 parts, not 3. Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Canon of Scripture. Their faith is placed squarely more with the Bible than anything else since that is where they claim all the evidence lies for the other 3. Such an approach is a rather new thing in Christianity. Unfortunately, it fosters the creative thinking abilities of your typical government bureaucrat. What do we do when the principles of Christianity require us to go against what the Bible says? I'd venture to guess that Bible worshipers would never admit to such a possibility. Ironically, this was exactly the kind of questioning that Jesus of Nazareth was known for and what got him into a lot of trouble.
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Old 09-14-2018, 12:17 PM
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I always find it funny. The ONLY time a conservative will say work and self sufficiency are bad things is when it comes to salvation.

Free pass for medical care? no..... Get a job and pay for heath insurance like a good American.
Free pass for housing? Absolutely not, I ain't paying for your lazy butt to sit around.....
Free pass for food? Why should I pay for you to eat. Get a job and buy your own food........
Free pass for school? Lol. Oh wait you are serious? Let me laugh harder at your crazy a**
Free pass for heaven? Well duh.... of course that's free. do you seriously expect us to work for That? Wtf is wrong with you.
That's hilarious! I never thought about that before.
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Old 09-14-2018, 1:04 PM
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Many Christians claim that their god is a triune being -- Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Yet, their rhetoric sounds more like it has 4 parts, not 3. Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Canon of Scripture. Their faith is placed squarely more with the Bible than anything else since that is where they claim all the evidence lies for the other 3. Such an approach is a rather new thing in Christianity. Unfortunately, it fosters the creative thinking abilities of your typical government bureaucrat. What do we do when the principles of Christianity require us to go against what the Bible says? I'd venture to guess that Bible worshipers would never admit to such a possibility. Ironically, this was exactly the kind of questioning that Jesus of Nazareth was known for and what got him into a lot of trouble.
We have no principles that require us to go against The Bible. The Noble Bereans prove that Scripture Alone is not new. The Bible is the Word of God spoken by the Holy Spirit. So, there are three Persons of the Godhead not 4. Jesus was supposed to be in trouble. That's why he came.
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Old 09-15-2018, 2:16 PM
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Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
Many Christians claim that their god is a triune being -- Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Yet, their rhetoric sounds more like it has 4 parts, not 3. Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Canon of Scripture. Their faith is placed squarely more with the Bible than anything else since that is where they claim all the evidence lies for the other 3. Such an approach is a rather new thing in Christianity. Unfortunately, it fosters the creative thinking abilities of your typical government bureaucrat. What do we do when the principles of Christianity require us to go against what the Bible says? I'd venture to guess that Bible worshipers would never admit to such a possibility. Ironically, this was exactly the kind of questioning that Jesus of Nazareth was known for and what got him into a lot of trouble.


Christianity is the worship of Jesus as God. The only source for this knowledge is the Bible. In the practices of Christianity, underestimating the value of the Bible is as detrimental as overestimating it. Where does ‘creative thought’ have a place in such an archaic belief system? It really is not unfortunate at all if the people who believe in the Word already consider it perfect. The tenets have been set, and there is no reason or need for change in that belief system. It really is not new to Christianity. It is as it always was, except for people who try to change it for their own purposes.
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Old 09-15-2018, 6:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
Well,...thanks for your reply and input.
So, you've read and understand about Karma but reject it. OK

You seem to suggest that I do not believe in...what, Christianity?
You'd be wrong there if you do.
FWIW, I consider myself a Christian.
Some judgemental types here would disagree with that though.
That's their problem.

There are references to Karma (Law of Cause and Effect) sprinkled in the Bible. Such as:
You reap what you sow...
Live by the sword, die by the sword...
...and others.
No, I did not suggest you reject Christianity. I am not anyone's judge only God is fit to judge. I state what I believe and I quote scripture each and every person has a free will to accept or reject what scripture says.
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Old 09-16-2018, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Paparock View Post
No, I did not suggest you reject Christianity. I am not anyone's judge only God is fit to judge. I state what I believe and I quote scripture each and every person has a free will to accept or reject what scripture says.
That all sounds good but when you wrote:
"...That is not true conversion of the heart. If you don't believe you don't believe and you have the free will to do so. God gave you that ability..."

That suggests to me that you are saying that I do not believe.......Do not believe in what?....for the second time.
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Old 09-16-2018, 5:54 PM
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The OPs question presupposes that not all people deserve hell. The problem is, everyone deserves hell. The Bible is clear that all of humanity falls short.

If you start with the premise everyone deserves hell, then salvation and heaven make more sense as it is a gift of God through his mercy.

I think Keith Green once said (paraphrased), if you are a nice guy but don't believe in Jesus, you'll be the nicest guy in hell.
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Old 09-16-2018, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
That all sounds good but when you wrote:
"...That is not true conversion of the heart. If you don't believe you don't believe and you have the free will to do so. God gave you that ability..."

That suggests to me that you are saying that I do not believe.......Do not believe in what?....for the second time.

The Bible specifically teaches against reincarnation is all I was saying. You either believe what the Bile teaches or you do not.
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Old 09-16-2018, 11:06 PM
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Romans 3:23English Standard Version - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
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Old 09-17-2018, 6:43 AM
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"And When I Die" - Laura Nyro

My troubles are many, they're as deep as a well,
I can swear there ain't no heaven, but I pray there ain't no hell.
Swear there ain't no heaven, pray there ain't no hell,
But I'll never know by livin', only my dyin' will tell
Only my dyin' will tell.
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Old 09-17-2018, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by spectralhunter View Post
The OPs question presupposes that not all people deserve hell. The problem is, everyone deserves hell. The Bible is clear that all of humanity falls short.

If you start with the premise everyone deserves hell, then salvation and heaven make more sense as it is a gift of God through his mercy.

I think Keith Green once said (paraphrased), if you are a nice guy but don't believe in Jesus, you'll be the nicest guy in hell.
Kind of like if you suppose that slavery is the norm, then Jim Crow looks like progress?

Some folks start with Hell. From there, Jesus and what he offers looks like a hell of a better deal. I prefer to start where the Bible itself starts our story -- in Eden. A simple life lived in the moment in relationship with our families, fully-integrated with the earth and its rhythms without any crazy ideas that we know what is right or wrong or that we need to anything other than eat, work, love, make love, raise kids, watch out for danger, tell stories and die with dignity.

Jesus, kingdoms, kings, worship, churches, heaven, hell, scriptures, laws, covenants, commandments, creeds, liturgies and all the trappings of our religions fall short of what we once had right back there in the garden. By the time of Jesus, all that was long since ancient history -- truly something he never knew. The best he could come up with was something akin to the Davidic monarchy -- the hallmark of Jewish independence in Judea. Sorry. It ain't my heaven.
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Old 09-20-2018, 11:59 AM
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I have some reading material for you if you so choose to read it. It is a book by Joel Richardso. Everyone is free to believe or reject as they choose as all are free moral agents masters of their own souls and their own fate.

There’s only one conclusion you can draw by taking the prophecies of the Bible literally, says New York Times bestselling author Joel Richardson. Someday soon, a Jew named Yeshua – or Jesus, as he’s known in the West – will rule the world from Jerusalem.

In his new book, When a Jew Rules the World, Richardson paints a picture of what that one-thousand-year reign will be like, along the way blow-torching the notion that gentile Christians have "replaced" the Jews and Israel as the people of promise. Richardson lays out the tragic history of anti-Semitism within the church from the very beginning in what may be the most thorough repudiation of what has become known as “Replacement Theology,” or, as Richardson calls it, “Supersesessionism.”

Joseph Farah, founder of WND.com, calls When a Jew Rules the World “one of the most important books of our time – a chance for Christians to rediscover their true identity as fellow heirs of promise with the House of Israel, the wild olive branches grafted into the tree of the Abrahamic Covenant. Paul explained how we are grafted into that tree. The tree is not dead. It hasn’t been uprooted. It’s still very much alive, as Richardson so masterfully demonstrates through scripture.”

Chuck Missler praises When a Jew Rules the World, calling the book, “A must read for the serious Christian.”

•Is the Abrahamic Covenant relevant today?
•Has the Old Testament been replaced?
•How should gentile believers relate to unbelieving Jews?
•What exactly is Islamic Supersessionism?

Richardson answers these questions and more as he carefully walks the reader through the most essential passages of the Bible that must be understood if one desires to combat the growing Christian anti-Semitism. As the rage and resistance of Satan to God’s plans with Israel continues to spread throughout the earth, now is the hour for discerning Christians everywhere to arm themselves with a clear understanding of these profoundly foundational matters.

When A Jew Rules the World: What the Bible Really Says about Israel in the Plan of God

https://www.amazon.com/When-Jew-Rule...dp_kinw_strp_1

Where do you stand?

Last edited by Paparock; 09-20-2018 at 12:14 PM..
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Old 09-20-2018, 12:18 PM
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It's B. The sin of unbelief is what lands you into Hell.

Roman Catholicism has a lot of error, but the Reformed Theology of Calvin and his compatriots have some too.

Check out Lutheran Theology and it should make more sense.

And always bear one thing in mind: WE are NOT God. We are not to judge God's Word.
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Old 09-20-2018, 12:45 PM
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It's B. The sin of unbelief is what lands you into Hell.

Roman Catholicism has a lot of error, but the Reformed Theology of Calvin and his compatriots have some too.

Check out Lutheran Theology and it should make more sense.

And always bear one thing in mind: WE are NOT God. We are not to judge God's Word.


Luther did a lot of good things until he became a hard core Anti-Semite when he failed to convert Jews to Jesus. It embittered him greatly to the point he became a total Anti-Semite that you can find in his later writings. We all have our failings. Many Christian Denominations are Anti-Semitic even today!!! I have had elders in some churches agrue with me that Yeshua ; Jesus's Hebrew name was not really a Jew. For clarification I am of English/Irish heritage mostly and was a moderator for an Israeli Military Forum from which I retired a couple of years back. I am a Christian Zionist by faith https://www.christianitytoday.com/hi...i-semitic.html, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin...d_antisemitism, https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...heir-lies-quot, https://worldisraelnews.com/norways-...itic-writings/

For those of you who do not know what Christian Zionism is here is a simple definition: Christian Zionism is a belief among some Christians that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land, and the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, is in accordance with Biblical prophecy. The term began to be used in the mid-20th century, superseding Christian Restorationism for more read here> https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/christian-zionism

Last edited by Paparock; 09-20-2018 at 1:18 PM..
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Old 09-21-2018, 9:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Paparock View Post
Luther did a lot of good things until he became a hard core Anti-Semite when he failed to convert Jews to Jesus. It embittered him greatly to the point he became a total Anti-Semite that you can find in his later writings. We all have our failings. Many Christian Denominations are Anti-Semitic even today!!! I have had elders in some churches agrue with me that Yeshua ; Jesus's Hebrew name was not really a Jew. For clarification I am of English/Irish heritage mostly and was a moderator for an Israeli Military Forum from which I retired a couple of years back. I am a Christian Zionist by faith https://www.christianitytoday.com/hi...i-semitic.html, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin...d_antisemitism, https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...heir-lies-quot, https://worldisraelnews.com/norways-...itic-writings/

For those of you who do not know what Christian Zionism is here is a simple definition: Christian Zionism is a belief among some Christians that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land, and the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, is in accordance with Biblical prophecy. The term began to be used in the mid-20th century, superseding Christian Restorationism for more read here> https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/christian-zionism
Funny thing, though. Most Israeli Zionists aren't religious at all. Over 80% of Israelis practice no religion at all. Theodore Herzel, David Ben Gurion and nearly all the "founding fathers" of the modern state of Israel were either agnostic or atheist. Most were fed up with the idea of waiting for God & the Messiah & thought that Jewish people needed to take matters into their own hands. That is why most Orthodox Jews still don't recognize the state of Israel (they are still patiently waiting for their Messiah). Orthodox Jews only participate in civil government, not matters of state or international affairs.
Combined with their close ties to communist, socialist & other ideas we Americans find appalling, it's a wonder why we support the modern state of Israel as much as we do. I'd say the Israelis must be incredibly good at diplomacy. In the wake of WW2, they were gathering money from the Americans (much of it private donations from Christian Zionists) and the British while buying weapons from Czechoslovakia and other communist regimes. The Kibbutz system, now mostly a relic of bygone days, was among these early communist experiments. I guess the only way we work with our enemies is through mutual friends.

Granted, that all may not matter much to you. The modern state of Israel might not have much bearing on your personal belief system at all. Can't say I know enough about you to know if it factors in at all. But it's worth keeping in mind.

Last edited by CVShooter; 09-21-2018 at 9:11 AM..
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Old 09-21-2018, 11:12 AM
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Funny thing, though. Most Israeli Zionists aren't religious at all. Over 80% of Israelis practice no religion at all. Theodore Herzel, David Ben Gurion and nearly all the "founding fathers" of the modern state of Israel were either agnostic or atheist. Most were fed up with the idea of waiting for God & the Messiah & thought that Jewish people needed to take matters into their own hands. That is why most Orthodox Jews still don't recognize the state of Israel (they are still patiently waiting for their Messiah). Orthodox Jews only participate in civil government, not matters of state or international affairs.
Combined with their close ties to communist, socialist & other ideas we Americans find appalling, it's a wonder why we support the modern state of Israel as much as we do. I'd say the Israelis must be incredibly good at diplomacy. In the wake of WW2, they were gathering money from the Americans (much of it private donations from Christian Zionists) and the British while buying weapons from Czechoslovakia and other communist regimes. The Kibbutz system, now mostly a relic of bygone days, was among these early communist experiments. I guess the only way we work with our enemies is through mutual friends.

Granted, that all may not matter much to you. The modern state of Israel might not have much bearing on your personal belief system at all. Can't say I know enough about you to know if it factors in at all. But it's worth keeping in mind.
There are many people here in the USA that are Christians in name only. Oh, they may attend a church now and again but know little if anything about Christianity or what is actual in the Bible. How many have read the Bible cover to cover repeatedly and studied its contents would you guess? How Godly would say our leaders are? Does truth, honor, character, or faith actually really play a part in their lives? Would the nation be better off if they did? When you hear the Star Spangled Banner can you honestly answer Yes to the last line? The nation has changed vastly during my lifetime and not for the better. Israel as any nation led by men is not perfect look at the United States and its history. Before any American criticize Israel about the splinter in their eye they first should remove the log in their own eye.
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Old 09-24-2018, 2:14 PM
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There are many people here in the USA that are Christians in name only. Oh, they may attend a church now and again but know little if anything about Christianity or what is actual in the Bible. How many have read the Bible cover to cover repeatedly and studied its contents would you guess? How Godly would say our leaders are? Does truth, honor, character, or faith actually really play a part in their lives? Would the nation be better off if they did? When you hear the Star Spangled Banner can you honestly answer Yes to the last line? The nation has changed vastly during my lifetime and not for the better. Israel as any nation led by men is not perfect look at the United States and its history. Before any American criticize Israel about the splinter in their eye they first should remove the log in their own eye.
No criticism here. I enjoyed Israel a lot. Where else in the middle east can you find topless beaches?

But my point was that, at least religiously speaking, we are almost polar opposites. They take the idea of secularism very seriously -- way more seriously than we do here. Foundationally, the US was started by many deists, Christians and some atheists but they at least gave a lot of lip service to God, Providence, etc. In Israel, rather than lip service, it was practically a big, fat middle finger.
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Old 10-18-2018, 2:21 PM
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https://youtu.be/H43-fVgQiPQ
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Old 10-19-2018, 12:33 PM
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Does the OP is care what's been posted here?
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Old 10-25-2018, 4:46 PM
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I'll answer from my understanding of the scripture and try and make it short.

C) Both

Those That continually break the laws/commandments and/Or deny Jesus the Messiah.

Yet, those That believe in Jesus the Messiah can still be sent to away from heaven.
Matt 7:21-23

Hope it helps
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Old 10-25-2018, 4:50 PM
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To those of you that believe in hell

Believe in it, I've been there. Laredo Texas and some parts of Mississippi have entrances.
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Old 11-04-2018, 10:28 PM
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“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” – Matthew 25: 41-46

Hi Duke, and thank you for these thought provoking questions. Here is what I provide as answers.




I guess I would fall under the category of ‘B.’ I am reminded of what John wrote in Revelation regarding the New Jerusalem, that nothing unclean will enter:

“…and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.” – Revelation 21:27

The Bible tells us that to become clean, we must be washed in the blood of Christ.

“…but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.” – 1 John 1:7

“…and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood” – Revelation 1:5

Even those who might come to Him, but do not obey him, in effect deny him.

“Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?” – Luke 6:46

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.” – Matthew 7:21



Jesus indeed sacrificed Himself for all.

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” - John 3:16

“The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.” – Revelation 22:17


But we must also remember that Jesus said this:

“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.” – Matthew 7:13-14

“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” – John 3:36





The Bible describes belief as necessary.

“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” – John 8:24

“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.” – Mark 16:16

“And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.” – Hebrews 11:6


Repentance also is crucial.

“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.” – Acts 17:30,31

“For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.” – 2 Corinthians 7:10


In Acts 10 Cornelius is described as a very good and religious man. Cornelius was a worshiper of the true God, he was a man of prayer, he was kindhearted and generous. But in spite of his faith and good deeds, Cornelius was not saved. This is evident by Acts 11:13,14 where He was told by an angel of God to send for Peter who could instruct him on how to be saved.

So it would seem that being a good person, or even a good religious person, does not contain the keys to the Kingdom. As much as we might dislike it or disagree, the Bible illustrates to us that there are people who have lived very good lives who will not find salvation and people who have done horrendous things that may find forgiveness.




I believe we will all be judged on the same day.

“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.” – Matthew 25: 31-33

“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.” – John 5:25-29
I really like your answer waser. Your findings are tough... A forgiving God does just that, even for Child rapists, terrorists and serial killers. We may not feel it fair, but deep down inside, we know it is, as we require just as much mercy and who are we to deny it of others.

So many other responses try to sugar coat... Try to make the believers feel better. But all that does is create contradictions. Your references are much appreciated
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Old 11-05-2018, 7:39 AM
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I belive the Clintons will buy their way into heaven
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