Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

[ke6guj]

I'm not familiar with Suze Orman's kit, I used Quicken WIllmaker, but the basics should be the same. There is a mega-thread at ar15.com that is worth reading a couple times that details the trust process pretty good, http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=17&t=199942 .

I used Quicken Willmaker to create a Basic Trust. I made it as simple as possible for me and will keep it as an firearms-only trust. If I need to, I can create additional trusts later on for other estate planning. I made sure that I did not include any persons in my trust as beneficiary that are under 18 years old or are prohibited from receiving firearms. No Felons or Lautenberg-prohibited persons. Later on, if I want to pass on these firearms to a child, I will ammend the trust to clarify that the firearms must be held by the sucessor trustee until the child is of legal age.

Once you have the trust created, all the paperwork is pretty much the same.

As for trying the AOW path, trying to make your own, or buying one from a dealer? If building your own, Form 1 and $200 tax needed, but you don't need to include a Class 3 dealer. If you buy from a dealer, its on a Form 4 but the tax is only $5. But the dealer may have transfer fees that eat into that $195 savings if they are even willing to work with you, if they even know how.

[Roccobro]

Originally Posted by Turbinator

I'd like to revive this thread... I have a copy of Suze Orman's Will & Trust Kit right here.. software. I am thinking of trying the AOW path. Anyone else willing to work in parallel?

Turby

I'm down for that. I've got a line on a C&R shotgun that is calling out to be hacked....

Justin

[vinny_land]

I hava question regarding a SBS. I friend of mine is selling his H&R Single Shot shotgun. My question is the required $200 a one time thing or is there a renewal fee?

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by vinny_land

I hava question regarding a SBS. I friend of mine is selling his H&R Single Shot shotgun. My question is the required $200 a one time thing or is there a renewal fee?

One time per owner.

[vinny_land]

okay that is good to know because i was reading this from shotgunworld.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=80131

[Roccobro]

The C&R Remmy 870 is on it's way to start it's new life with me.

Justin

[ke6guj]

How do you determine C&R for an 870? What serial numbers are we looking for?

[GuyW]

OK - this is AOW and not SBS:

I looked into the AOW tax thing a couple of weeks ago - 'cause I was confused. I emailed Serbu and another AOW manufacturer.

Now transfering an already-papered AOW is a $5 tax. This I knew. (SBS is always $200)

A citizen creating a new AOW must pay a $200 tax. This I had found out recently (had been under the misconception it was $5)

My question was, what tax do I pay when I buy an AOW from a licensed AOW manufacturer?

Ans: $5....not $200...

Looks best just to buy an AOW from a manufacturer, rather than hunting up a Mossberg AOW, papering it, and shortening the barrel...

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by GuyW

Looks best just to buy an AOW from a manufacturer...

Who is your transfer dealer going to be?

[ke6guj]

GuyW,

As for the $5 vs. $200 issue, yup, that is known and it would be nice to be able to buy a premade AOW on a $5 Form 4 but the issue becomes finding a dealer willing to transfer an AOW to you and what his fee will be to do the transfer.

Would $100 be an unreasonable price for doing the transfer, probably not with the price for an regular Title 1 dealer transfer approaching that today. So, now, your $195 difference is done to $95 if you can find someone willing to do it.

My local Class 3 dealer wouldn't do it, didn't see how it was legal even with the AOW exemption spelled out in the code.

Maybe after a bunch of Form 1 AOWs get approved, we can show the local dealer that we know what we are talking about when we want to get a legal Form 4 transfer done.

Plus, most of us are probably gonna be doing the Form1/4 stuff on a trust, how does that affect the DROS process?

So, for a $95 savings, right now a Form 1 is probably the easiest until we can iron out more of these questions.


OH, when you emailed Serbu and the other manufacturer, did either of them mention CA dealers that would do a Form 4 to the public?

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Who is your transfer dealer going to be?

+1 on that. IIRC there are a couple dealers down there in the San Diego area that other calgunners contacted to see if they would do a transfer. They got blown off by the dealers stating that AOWs were illegal under the CA SBS rules.

[GuyW]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Who is your transfer dealer going to be?

Dunno how to answer hard questions like that yet...

[Roccobro]

Originally Posted by ke6guj

How do you determine C&R for an 870? What serial numbers are we looking for?

This was sent to me and saved. I have confirmed it through other pages found under the Remington society and other resources.

"I just copied this from the RimfireCentral/Remington forum:

For shotguns with removeable barrels, the code will be valid for the manufacture of the barrel; maybe for the receiver, as barrels do get switched around.

According to the "Blue Book of Gun Values", the coding continues as follows:

Month Codes: [first letter]
B - L - A - C - K - P - O - W - D - E - R - X
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 - 11 - 12

Year:______Code: [second (and third*) letters]
1950_______ WW
1951_______ XX
1952_______ YY
1953_______ ZZ
1954_______ A
1955_______ B
1956_______ C
1957_______ D
1958_______ E
1959_______ F

1960_______ G
1961_______ H
1962_______ J
1963_______ K
1964_______ L
1965_______ M
1966_______ N
1967_______ P
1968_______ R
1969_______ S

1970_______ T
1971_______ U
1972_______ W
1973_______ X
1974_______ Y
1975_______ Z
1976_______ I
1977_______ O
1978_______ Q
1979_______ V

1980_______ A
1981_______ B
1982_______ C
1983_______ D
1984_______ E
1985_______ F
1986_______ G
1987_______ H
1988_______ I
1989_______ J

1990_______ K
1991_______ L
1992_______ M
1993_______ N
1994_______ O
1995_______ P
1996_______ Q
1997_______ R
1998_______ S
1999_______ T

* the years 1943 though 1953 had double letters: ie, MM = 1943

As maybe seen, the year code letters duplicate; some knowledge of when the model was introduced should resolve the actual year of manufacture."


*************************************

The only "problem" I might have is with the C&R Remmy being NOT on the Fed's C&R list. I saw some pages with 870's being made in the 40's (along with the code reference above), but didn't see any FS and couldn't spell out the process to identify to potential sellers clearly enough. Plus even those weren't "listed" so I bought the easier to find '52 I won on Gunbroker. Michigan has the same C&R SBR/SBS laws as CA, and some have done the C&R 870 already (as have some CA guys but don't know who). I'll just have to go along and do what's I gotta do's!

Form my NFA trust is next on the process.....

Justin

[DrDremel]

I'm the guy from MI that started this all. My 870 was made in 1952. As for not being on the C&R list, all firearms 50 years or older qualify as C&R. Also those looking for C&R 870s, I found 2 at a shop here in MI. I already bought 2 for myself so I don't need any more.

I never thought my first form 1 would have such implications in California.

[ke6guj]

Justin, thanks for the info on the 870s. One thing you may want to do is contact Remington and get a letter from them confirming the manufacturing date. I got a letter from Ithaca for my M37 stating the year of manufacture.

DrDremel, see what you started.

[Roccobro]

DrDremel, see what you started.

Yeah! Now I'll do you a favor and not tell my wife why you are so important in my latest project. I'm sure she would LOVE to "thank you" personally.

Justin

[m24armorer]

[vinny_land]

To clarify things.

To build a SBS, the gun needs to be C&R? And to build an AOW, C&R does not matter?

[ke6guj]

yup, there are 2 exemptions that work for us. One is for C&R SBS/SBRs and the other is for AOWs. The AOW exemption does not require C&R status.

[vinny_land]

To build a AOW, the original gun needs to have a factory PG correct? Also how old do we have to be to be build a SBS or AOW? I hoping its not 21 because i dont want to miss the boat before laws change.

[ke6guj]

Yes, if you wanted to make an shotgun-style AOW if would need to have been made with a factory PG and have never had a buttstock attached. There are other AOW options out there that can have a buttstock but those are more rare options. Most people doing an AOW are gonna be be doing the shotgun-style PG AOW.

IIRC, you only need to be 18 to build on a Form 1 (SBS or AOW), but need to be 21 to buy on a Form 4. http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=17&t=228704 . The problem for you will be that in order to buy a PG shotty, you need to be 21 so gaining possession of one may be a problem.

[1064chubbs]

Anyone finished with their projects yet?

[vandal]

Waiting for my paperwork. I installed a gold bead into the solid rib at about 13"... I suppose I could go ahead and have the barrel engraved now so I would be ready to cut when the letter from ATF arrives.

Standard trophy engraver should be able to handle it, right?

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by vandal

Standard trophy engraver should be able to handle it, right?

I'm hoping so. I need to talk to the local trophy shop and see what they can do. Just have the regs for how the engraving needs to be done (size and depth), and confirm that they can do it while you wait.

edit: For the 37, I'll probably have the barrel engraved, but on the Mossberg AOW, I'll probably have the receiver engraved so I can play with different barrels.

[Roccobro]

Originally Posted by ke6guj

I'm hoping so. I need to talk to the local trophy shop and see what they can do. Just have the regs for how the engraving needs to be done (size and depth), and confirm that they can do it while you wait.

Got a link to the regs ? I know the engraving *should* be about .006" deep, but people are using laser engraving at .003" and not worrying about it. I don't remember the font size and type.

Justin

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by Roccobro

Got a link to the regs ? I know the engraving *should* be about .006" deep, but people are using laser engraving at .003" and not worrying about it. I don't remember the font size and type.

Justin

Actually the engraving must be at least .003"


http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2...cfr479.102.htm

Sec. 479.102 How must firearms be identified?

(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must
legibly identify the firearm as follows:
(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
(impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual
serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not
susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must
not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For
firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002,
the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number
must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller
than 1/16 inch; and
(2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
(impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain
additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not
susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For
firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002,
the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information
must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information
includes:
(i) The model, if such designation has been made;
(ii) The caliber or gauge;
(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when
applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;
(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State
(or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer
maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the
firearm; and

note that only the serial number has a height requirement. Any other markings are only required to meet the depth requirement. I didn't see it in the code, but I remember seeing a ruling published that the markings must be in Arabic lettering and Roman numerals. I don't see anything regarding font, but I'd probably go with something standard like Arial.

[GuyW]

Acid etching *ought* to be an acceptable method....

I suppose "or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be....placed on the frame or receiver thereof..." covers etching...

[adamsreeftank]

So the reg says marking the barrel is acceptable, but also can't be easily removed, so does that mean you can mark a barrel if it is threaded or pinned, but must mark the receiver on something like a shotgun where the barrel is easily removed?

[vandal]

I was wondering the same thing. My Ithaca 37 barrel is intended to be removed.

Originally Posted by adamsreeftank

So the reg says marking the barrel is acceptable, but also can't be easily removed, so does that mean you can mark a barrel if it is threaded or pinned, but must mark the receiver on something like a shotgun where the barrel is easily removed?

[ke6guj]

I read it as, the markings themselves must not be easily removed, not that the barrel that they are marked on can't be removed. Note that the same verbage regarding removeability in the serial number marking requirements on the receiver. If it was an issue, the regulations should have stated that it could only be marked on a non-removable barrel. And how do you make a barrel that can't be removed? Welded, blind-pinned, or machined as part of the receiver?

vandal, if you look at your 37, you'll notice that the removable barrel already has all the make, model, and caliber markings.

[WhiteDingo]

So I just found this thread, and I think I've got a plan. I was given a Remington Model 11 by my Grandfather some time back, and it's just been sitting here gathering dust.
I had a question though. I think I know the answer, but I want to be sure. C&R status doesn't have to be registered, does it? It is just a status determined by the age of the firearm?


So here's my plan, let me know if I mess anything up.

-Complete a trust (probably via Quicken).
-Get a letter from Remington verifying age of shotgun (just to be safe)
-Form 1 w/ $200 tax to ATF, await return.
-Engrave a spare barrel w/ trust name and location of manufacturer (on the barrel itself is ok, yes? doesn't have to be on the receiver? I want to purchase a spare barrel for the project).
-Get approved form 1 back from ATF
-Have a gunsmith cut the barrel down (for an OAL of a bit over 30", I can cut it down to just past the handguard).

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by WhiteDingo

I had a question though. I think I know the answer, but I want to be sure. C&R status doesn't have to be registered, does it? It is just a status determined by the age of the firearm?

Yup, it is C&R automatically if 50+ years old, or, if less than 50 years old, if listed in the book

So here's my plan, let me know if I mess anything up.

-Complete a trust (probably via Quicken).
-Get a letter from Remington verifying age of shotgun (just to be safe)
-Form 1 w/ $200 tax to ATF, await return.
-Engrave a spare barrel w/ trust name and location of manufacturer (on the barrel itself is ok, yes? doesn't have to be on the receiver? I want to purchase a spare barrel for the project).
-Get approved form 1 back from ATF
-Have a gunsmith cut the barrel down (for an OAL of a bit over 30", I can cut it down to just past the handguard).

Looks like you got the plan down pretty good. A letter from remington would be nice to have, but technically isn't neccessary since production of the 11 ended in 1948. But it is nice to have to help show C&R status.

As for doing the markings and cutdown on a spare barrel, its nice to be able to keep the original barrel for restoration. However, be aware that even if you put the original 18+" barrel back on, it is technically still a registered SBS, and all the SBS rules apply, such as possession rules and interstate transportation. I do not know if it would be legal to put the original barrel back on while the shotgun is a registered SBS without there being any of the required markings.

However, keeping the original barrel unmarked would be a good idea if you decided that you wanted to have the shotgun removed from the registry and returned it back to the original configuration. If you wanted to do that, you can write the ATF to have them remove it from the registry. They will send you back a letter stating that the shotgun has been noted as being returned to Title 1 status and is no longer a registered SBS.

[AJAX22]

The Remington 11 is one of the only firearm designs which doesnt SBR well

As a straight recoil operated semi auto with a barrel that recoils rearward, you can't cut it shorter than a little over a shells length in front of the mag tube cap.

which is over 18 inches... so there really is no point to it unless you shorten the mag tube/for end assembly, which is a rather big deal on a remmy 11

If you need a C&R gun to SBS I can point you at a few candidates that are better for your project.

[WhiteDingo]

Originally Posted by AJAX22

The Remington 11 is one of the only firearm designs which doesnt SBR well

As a straight recoil operated semi auto with a barrel that recoils rearward, you can't cut it shorter than a little over a shells length in front of the mag tube cap.

which is over 18 inches... so there really is no point to it unless you shorten the mag tube/for end assembly, which is a rather big deal on a remmy 11

If you need a C&R gun to SBS I can point you at a few candidates that are better for your project.

That would be much appreciated. Don't care whether it's semi or pump, but I just can't resist having a SBS....then I'll just have to fill out that interstate travel form when I move to AZ.

[vandal]

Local trophy store can NOT engrave. Laser engraving is not capable of the barrel hardness. He recommended an industrial engraver, or stamping. He did not know anyone. Refreshingly, he was gun-friendly -- taking a guess at what kind of gun the barrel was from (model 12?)

[GuyW]

Originally Posted by vandal

Local trophy store can NOT engrave. Laser engraving is not capable of the barrel hardness. He recommended an industrial engraver, or stamping. He did not know anyone. Refreshingly, he was gun-friendly -- taking a guess at what kind of gun the barrel was from (model 12?)

Anybody can acid-etch at home...

[vandal]

Found a local guy who says he can do it with a rotating diamond cutter.

Does acid etching get .003 deep?

[GuyW]

Originally Posted by vandal

Found a local guy who says he can do it with a rotating diamond cutter.

Does acid etching get .003 deep?

The acid continues to etch as long as its in contact with the metal.

[Roccobro]

A 1951 28" 12ga 870 is being offered for sale on my thread at Gunbroker.com if anybody is interested.

http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.as...90712&#2292615

EDIT:He wants $250 for it. I can get his info if your not a GB member.

Justin

[vandal]

Got a nice letter today from US DOJ, BATF NFA branch.

I guess I filled out the form correctly.