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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #1  
Old 09-25-2017, 4:46 PM
Mike402 Mike402 is offline
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Default Any Tripod shooters out there? Need help with new setup

Hey Gents, picked up a new RRS Tripod with their leveling base. Love the quality and overall craftsmanship of their products. A bit expensive, but as always, you get what you pay for.

So I took it out for the first time this past Sunday to experiment (pics below). Have never shot off of a tripod before so I wasn't sure what to expect.





I'm pretty consistent .4-.5 moa with my setup over a bipod/bag with occasional .1 & .2s every now & again. I wanted to quantify the accuracy difference between this & a tripod setup so I shot back to back 5 shot groups at 300 yards.

Here's the bipod/bag results - 1.125" (.375 moa) A touch better than my overall average



And the tripod results in the standing position



So came in at 4.75" or 1.5 moa. Naturally didn't feel as secure as the prone bipod/bag position.

So my question to those experienced with these tripod setups, what are your typical results? Any tips/tricks to improve performance? I had my non shooting hand on the leveling base, and tried to apply forward pressure to the rifle by leaning into it. This is with a braked .308 fyi.

Last edited by Mike402; 10-12-2017 at 2:43 PM..
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Old 09-25-2017, 8:05 PM
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diver160651 diver160651 is offline
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Default Any Tripod shooters out there? Need help with new setup

Not everyone is dropping $1,500+ on a RRS setup! As you know you have one of the best setups out there. I love mine.

I donít know how your behind the gun. But in general, sub-MOA is really something from a Tripod, your still looking good.

Low is still better.

When I have people new to tripods mostly they over load (push on the stock) it. This introduces shake from your body as the body is unsupported. I know sounds weird. But thatís the number one mistake I see.

To light and you loose your targetó once the shot is broken, so it is a balance.

That is one on the reason the 6mm is so popular with barricades and tripods.

I know I am not giving you the answers, but you have two strategies and need to find the one that fits you the best. Less shooter load and turn the legs the opposite way you have them to help with recoil, weigh or load it (but then need to work on your brake timing).

RRS has a flush cup that will let you attach a sling to use it to reverse load the tripod itself, if you wish.. see the tab gear rifle sling attached to the RRS.. tab gear also shows how to use the sling to the body when typical sling setups might not work. Anyway, you can do the same with the tripod. Or weight it if youíd like with your ruck.



I run my legs opposite to you when I can.


This pic has the legs forward - Iíll use both, but get my best by very light shooter load and reversed legs.

The takeaway your shooting just over MOA on the tripod. Very good. Be careful not to duplicate someone shooting 2-4 MOA.. I take it you arenít or you would not have invested in the RRS SOAR.

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Last edited by diver160651; 09-25-2017 at 9:20 PM..
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Old 09-25-2017, 8:13 PM
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I had an issue with canting the rifle a bit on the tripod when standing until I realized I was doing it.
Kneeling or standing I have found the following:
It really helps to use a sling or strap to load and tension the tripod. I actually will use my sling around my tricep to lock the stock and grip into tension so that I am not leaning into the tripod, and have a bungee cord which tensions the tripod a bit.
Generically I have found it helpful to not lock the rifle in tight to the saddle until pretty much on target, and I use the ballhead tension set a so that there is a decent resistance to movement rather than loose or tight.
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Old 09-25-2017, 8:46 PM
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I shoot only bolt guns and use an inexpensive Vanguard tripod (T62U). When shooting at paper targets to verify sighting before a hunt, I get groups 2" or less and seem to shoot from the tripod while standing up better than from a bench while sitting. I can consistently hit a 3" gong at 100 yards with a .223 and a .30-06. Maybe not good enough for competition but adequate for whatever critter I'm shooting at.

I position the tripod with one leg in front, whether standing or sitting. I have my weight slightly forward so that front leg has to be aligned with the rifle. Forend (not the barrel) in the cradle atop the tripod using the sling swivel as a stop. Right elbow down low.

Somewhere here there's a thread I started months ago asking pretty much the same question and it contains very helpful suggestions. It took me 3 or 4 practice sessions to get group sizes I could live with for hunting.

You should be able to duplicate your sitting results in a standing position with a little more practice.
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Old 09-25-2017, 9:26 PM
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Very helpful responses - thank you. First I am hearing of using a sling in conjunction with a tripod. I thought I was done with sending RRS all of my money, but I'll look into that flush cup :-)

I plan on getting out next weekend and trying different techniques and comparing results. Diver - I'll also try reversing the legs.

One huge difference I noticed is recoil impulse. When I'm proned out and loading the bipod, I get just under half a mil in movement after the shot breaks with my .308. Took some practice and experimentation to even get to that point. With the tripod, I'm completely off target and have to start from scratch rebuilding the position. That explains the delta in group size.

Will try to report back with results!
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Old 09-25-2017, 10:19 PM
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There are several things you can do. Nice set up by the way.

I use my Rifles Only Sling and run it from the front of the rifle to my belt and to the back of my rifle, ensuring the sling is running through the bipod. This enables me to load the bipod for absorbing recoil and quick follow up shots. Also, take a dog leash and apply it to the tripod and using the open looped part on your foot and stepping away from the tripod to absorb the movement of the tripod. That helps a lot. We do this for 1,000 yard shooting etc.. you can Google this and see some poca of what I'm referring to.

I also take a rope and run it from the front of the gun to a belt. There are a lot of options. Get the positional shooting book from Marcus Blanchard , worth the read

My wife thinks I only have 3 guns
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Old 09-26-2017, 7:09 AM
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Default Any Tripod shooters out there? Need help with new setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by waveslayer View Post
There are several things you can do. Nice set up by the way.

I use my Rifles Only Sling and run it from the front of the rifle to my belt and to the back of my rifle, ensuring the sling is running through the bipod. This enables me to load the bipod for absorbing recoil and quick follow up shots. Also, take a dog leash and apply it to the tripod and using the open looped part on your foot and stepping away from the tripod to absorb the movement of the tripod. That helps a lot. We do this for 1,000 yard shooting etc.. you can Google this and see some poca of what I'm referring to.

I also take a rope and run it from the front of the gun to a belt. There are a lot of options. Get the positional shooting book from Marcus Blanchard , worth the read

My wife thinks I only have 3 guns
WaveSlayer. What Tripod are you using? You're not doing all three tether suggestions at the same time are you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike402 View Post
First I am hearing of using a sling in conjunction with a tripod. I thought I was done with sending RRS all of my money, but I'll look into that flush cup :-)
Edited as Tapatalk just delete half the post.

Mike402 - Maybe wait a few before spending more $ unless you like me want to carry the tripod extended anyway. If you look closely to the original image I posted with the Tab Gear sling on the tripod, you can see the other end of the sling attached to the lower leg. I don't need to load the RRS the way that I might on a less capable system.

BTW The sling to the Belt is also shown on the tab gear video. Tony B does a quick video I was referencing and what I am doing occasionally when attached to less stable tripods like the old Manfrotto's and what we had to do before the SOAR stuff. On those, we used to have to really have to lock down the guns and really time the trigger brake, because they just were so unstable. Using a Hog, Pig, Vise, ball head or pistol grip will also mandate a bit more shooter into the tripod or rifle.

Tab Gear showing sling to "belt"~ also referenced by Waveslayer
https://youtu.be/cdZ3XFrImRA

Your TVC-33 with the TA-3 while as light or lighter than the Manfrotto's with Ballheads, pistol grips and just about all else and is rock solid by comparison.. For your setup, you can do as Waveslayer suggested, or as a test just wrap your sling around the hook under the leveling head. I also use the flush cup setup to carry the tripod if I want it extended. Again adding your ruck to the hook under the leveling head will also help the recoil impulse. BUT i just noticed you bought the 2.5" handle.. oops.. I'll put a link in somewhere down my response to a post I did that shows the 2.5 compared to the 4.5. You can get handles for $75. The hook lets you really weigh the tripod with the ruck your carting anyway.. 50/100 rounds match dependent, water, tools rain gear etc weigh a lot!
The bag is actually not on the ground..

You might also like the RRS SS Claw feet


However, I also think you may find no need to do the above, with your setup.

This is just my implied suggestions in my first response, but broken down ~ because your already shooting very well, maybe start here:
1. Shoot at 15x or <. The increases FOV will certainly keep your targets in view and help you find the next much faster.
2. Do not over-load the tripod, but don't use free-recoil or you'll lose the target as you mentioned.
3. Use the tripod to help manage the recoil impulse. You'll get more than enough load with the tripod reverse of your images.
4. Use your hand below the Apex if your readjusting for targets, but on the legs or rifle may offer a bit more stability. I keep mine on the handle
5. Add in your ruck (if you have the hook).

* Try a chair seated until you find the balance your looking for then try to stand and duplicate.
* Add in a pump pillow if you feel shaky standing

Do the above things before adding in your sling - The sling has two attachment strategies, the rifle or the tripod; with three basic load ideas.
1. The forearm or bicep - this can be slow cycling the bolt when shooting weak-side
2. The belt - kinda funky (I used to do this on the more flexi-setups- but not on the TVC-33/TA-3)
3. The ground/foot (usually the best from the hook in high wind were the ruck swings).

Here is a link to the post I did on the Hide that shows the Handle comparison and tripod position height of the 2.5 vrs 4.5 and 3.5" options https://forum.snipershide.com/forum/...33-feisol-3372

I can't remember what I posted other than to say your already shooting excellent.. and when I started most of the guys were struggling and missing huge LR targets with the Manfrotos and pistol grips.. The Hog made thing much better as did the ball heads, but your in another league with the TVC-33 and TA-3 leveling head!
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Last edited by diver160651; 09-26-2017 at 9:29 AM..
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Old 09-26-2017, 7:29 AM
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I'm running a carbon and aluminum Manfrotto. I habebplayed with the RRS several times

My wife thinks I only have 3 guns
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Old 09-26-2017, 10:39 AM
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Diver - you're the man. Thanks for all that info! Just curious, where are you located? Would love to link up and work on some of these techniques real time. I'm out by Palm Springs area, but willing to drive. You can PM me if you prefer.

I'm gonna order the claw feet right now.
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Old 09-26-2017, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike402 View Post
Diver - you're the man. Thanks for all that info! Just curious, where are you located? Would love to link up and work on some of these techniques real time. I'm out by Palm Springs area, but willing to drive. You can PM me if you prefer.

I'm gonna order the claw feet right now.
Northern CA - we have a very nice private range in Central CA.. with a lot of steel. If you running north through CA doing a road trip. PM me I'll send you my cell as I am not the best at checking my PMs on a timely basis.
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Old 09-26-2017, 8:40 PM
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I'm a tripod shooter sometimes... its a lot of fun...

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Old 09-26-2017, 9:03 PM
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Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
I'm a tripod shooter sometimes... its a lot of fun...

Need to post your 5 round group though...or in your case 50 round
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Old 10-12-2017, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diver160651 View Post

Do the above things before adding in your sling - The sling has two attachment strategies, the rifle or the tripod;
Hey Diver, just got back from travelling for work, so I'm ready to jump back into this tripod/sling conundrum.

I've pretty much decided to get the TAB PRS sling & try the carabiner hip/belt attachment, but only thing I'm unsure of is whether to attach the other end to the rifle, or the tripod base. I guess I can experiment with both, but wanted to know if you have found one method better than the other.
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Old 10-12-2017, 11:27 AM
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Default Any Tripod shooters out there? Need help with new setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike402 View Post
Hey Diver, just got back from travelling for work, so I'm ready to jump back into this tripod/sling conundrum.



I've pretty much decided to get the TAB PRS sling & try the carabiner hip/belt attachment, but only thing I'm unsure of is whether to attach the other end to the rifle, or the tripod base. I guess I can experiment with both, but wanted to know if you have found one method better than the other.

I have the tab sling, and it works well for stabilizing shaky tripods. But in this case Iím not sure it really helps much. If itís super windy and you want both your hands free, running the sling to your foot, or belt loop from the tripod can help.

I would first try playing with the leg positions using the tripod from a seated position. I shoot left-handed so I have to think about this, but I think you would run it with a leg at eight and one leg at five-ish (you can experiment to 6) with your left hand near the Apex on the tripod leg pushing down. Play with the leg positions to find the best balance to counteract the recoil.

Once you feel really comfortable sitting down to the same thing standing but you wonít have to experiment much anymore. These things are so stable that sometime if you could actually create more problems by trying to do what works on the more shaky systems. Not sure any of that makes sense



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Old 10-12-2017, 1:08 PM
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Originally Posted by diver160651 View Post
I have the tab sling, and it works well for stabilizing shaky tripods. But in this case Iím not sure it really helps much. If itís super windy and you want both your hands free, running the sling to your foot, or belt loop from the tripod can help.

I would first try playing with the leg positions using the tripod from a seated position. I shoot left-handed so I have to think about this, but I think you would run it with a leg at eight and one leg at five-ish (you can experiment to 6) with your left hand near the Apex on the tripod leg pushing down. Play with the leg positions to find the best balance to counteract the recoil.

Once you feel really comfortable sitting down to the same thing standing but you wonít have to experiment much anymore. These things are so stable that sometime if you could actually create more problems by trying to do what works on the more shaky systems. Not sure any of that makes sense



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Allright, got some work to do. I'm shooting for consistent MOA so we'll see...
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Old 10-12-2017, 1:55 PM
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Not in the game but I need to ask why the tall Tripod?
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Old 10-12-2017, 2:30 PM
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Not in the game but I need to ask why the tall Tripod?
Well in a nutshell to stabilize shots that need to be taken either standing, kneeling, or prone.

Some guys use them in PRS competitions.

Last time I can think of when I actually needed something like this was a pig hunt where the only shot I had due to brush was standing. Now it was only two hundred yards away and we are talking about a 300 lb pig, so it was a fairly easy shot. However, I'd like the ability to extend my range on smaller targets, hence the tripod.

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Old 10-12-2017, 7:53 PM
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I get the hunting tripod but these high dollar units are not specifically for hunting. So just long range shooting target while standing?
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Old 10-12-2017, 9:57 PM
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Quote:
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I get the hunting tripod but these high dollar units are not specifically for hunting. So just long range shooting target while standing?


Thatís kinda the rub.. many say itís only for hunting then shoot a 6Ē spread at 300 yards while at the range.. add adrenaline, wind, range uncertainty, animal movement and the picture looks worse...

Then try the same thing above standing with ďhuntingĒ sticks and tripods ó ugly in a hurry.

So as guys reach further out, the best stability, especially for hunting is something we should all appreciate..


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Old 10-13-2017, 5:08 AM
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Know all about it, 50 years of it.
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Old 10-13-2017, 11:36 AM
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My immediate plan is to take this out to Salton Sea to shoot jackrabbits. Much easier to see/shoot them from an elevated position rather than proning out. I've tried this from a cheap bog pod tripod setup and results were very underwhelming. Night and day difference stepping up to the RRS setup.
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Old 10-18-2017, 3:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike402 View Post
My immediate plan is to take this out to Salton Sea to shoot jackrabbits. Much easier to see/shoot them from an elevated position rather than proning out. I've tried this from a cheap bog pod tripod setup and results were very underwhelming. Night and day difference stepping up to the RRS setup.
Mike,

Did you get a chance to find a leg position and height that let you find a bit smaller groups and self-spot?

I just update the RRS thread on the Hide with an image of a couple of shots prone, vrs the (tripod) TCV-33/TA-3 at the 100 line.. here at the end of the thread>https://forum.snipershide.com/forum/...33-feisol-3372
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Old 10-18-2017, 9:32 PM
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Mike,

Did you get a chance to find a leg position and height that let you find a bit smaller groups and self-spot?

I just update the RRS thread on the Hide with an image of a couple of shots prone, vrs the (tripod) TCV-33/TA-3 at the 100 line.. here at the end of the thread>https://forum.snipershide.com/forum/...33-feisol-3372
No I'm actually still waiting on the TAB sling to get in. I've got the qd sling attachments mounted, and the claw feet on. I also bought a vyce for my hunting rifle. Once that sling comes in, plan on doing a bunch of dry fire & practice/experimenting with sling mounted in different positions.

Just looked at your target, nice job w/ the RRS! Looks like you've got it down, and shows the difference with the HOG. I'll post something similar once I get my technique down. Thanks for all of your help in this btw!

I'm still trying to cope with the fact that I now have ~$2k invested in a tripod setup. Yikes...
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Old 10-19-2017, 6:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike402 View Post
Once that sling comes in, plan on doing a bunch of dry fire & practice/experimenting with sling mounted in different positions.
.
Let us know what you find. I'm mostly very curious to hear if moving the legs, pushing more down with the support hand and lowering the tripod height a bit (more bend at the waist), helps you with self-spotting the impacts..

For clarity, with your top end RRS set-up, I don't use the sling, except to carry the tripod. Seems to be counter productive on the RRS as mentioned earlier up in the thread. The target comparison I posted was without using a sling.

Well, if it blowing so hard things not tied down are taking off - I might. Or for a center column and Manfroto, AKA more shaky, less stable systems, I always used the sling.

Ya, I feel you on the $$$ for the RRS set-up, but you'll be happy with what you have.. And you first groups off the tripod are still darn good.


NICE HOG you took home BTW ~
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Old 11-02-2017, 11:29 AM
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Ok bro, I think I've got it down now. Based on your tips, here is what I came up with:

Two legs facing forward
Bottom legs retracted halfway (me leaning over more & driving the rifle)
RRS claw feet
TAB PRS sling attached to rifle & carabiner off my belt & cinched up tight

This technique is very steady compared to when I was first playing around with it. I've had multiple sub moa groups - even with my hunting rifle in the VYCE setup! The sling makes a big difference for me.

Here is what I did this morning - 5 shot groups at 200 yards. Still not as tight as the bipod (and not expecting it to ever be), but very happy with the tripod results now. I did notice a slight POI shift to the left. Logic would dictate that is being caused by the sling on the left side?





Just want to say thank you for taking the time to detail out everything - it was a huge help!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by diver160651 View Post
Let us know what you find. I'm mostly very curious to hear if moving the legs, pushing more down with the support hand and lowering the tripod height a bit (more bend at the waist), helps you with self-spotting the impacts..

For clarity, with your top end RRS set-up, I don't use the sling, except to carry the tripod. Seems to be counter productive on the RRS as mentioned earlier up in the thread. The target comparison I posted was without using a sling.

Well, if it blowing so hard things not tied down are taking off - I might. Or for a center column and Manfroto, AKA more shaky, less stable systems, I always used the sling.

Ya, I feel you on the $$$ for the RRS set-up, but you'll be happy with what you have.. And you first groups off the tripod are still darn good.


NICE HOG you took home BTW ~

Last edited by Mike402; 11-02-2017 at 11:42 AM..
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Old 11-02-2017, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike402 View Post
Ok bro, I think I've got it down now. Based on your tips, here is what I came up with:

Two legs facing forward
Bottom legs retracted halfway (me leaning over more & driving the rifle)
RRS claw feet
TAB PRS sling attached to rifle & carabiner off my belt & cinched up tight

This technique is very steady compared to when I was first playing around with it. I've had multiple sub moa groups - even with my hunting rifle in the VYCE setup! The sling makes a big difference for me.

Here is what I did this morning - 5 shot groups at 200 yards. Still not as tight as the bipod (and not expecting it to ever be), but very happy with the tripod results now. I did notice a slight POI shift to the left. Logic would dictate that is being caused by the sling on the left side?





Just want to say thank you for taking the time to detail out everything - it was a huge help!!
Mike,

Assume shooting!

Can you post the same thing in the thread on the Hide I directed you to? Even though there are some BAD ARSE positional shooters over there; there still are a lot of people who could and would appreciate your last post and your results once you moved things around a bit.. Good work

Last edited by diver160651; 11-02-2017 at 11:54 AM..
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Old 11-02-2017, 1:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike402 View Post
I did notice a slight POI shift to the left. Logic would dictate that is being caused by the sling on the left side?
Move the sling connection point rearward so that itís just about even with where the tripod mounts to the handguard.
This will reduce the sideward tension while the gun is in recoil.
Even better would be to move down underneath the handguard and behind the tripod mount point if there were room.
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  #28  
Old 11-02-2017, 2:25 PM
Mike402 Mike402 is offline
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Even better would be to move down underneath the handguard and behind the tripod mount point if there were room.
That is actually what I was thinking of doing from here on out after seeing the shift today. My original thinking was that wrapping it around the tripod leg would stabilize it better.
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Old 11-02-2017, 6:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Move the sling connection point rearward so that it’s just about even with where the tripod mounts to the handguard.
This will reduce the sideward tension while the gun is in recoil.
Even better would be to move down underneath the handguard and behind the tripod mount point if there were room.
Because the group is so assume from the tripod, I would bet $ it is more to do with the scope shading (slight induced parallax error) due to the positional shooting, than recoil offset..
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Old 11-02-2017, 7:28 PM
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Originally Posted by diver160651 View Post
Because the group is so assume from the tripod, I would bet $ it is more to do with the scope shading (slight induced parallax error) due to the positional shooting, than recoil offset..
If he's behind the gun right, he won't get scope shading.
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Randall Rausch

AR work: www.ar15barrels.com
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Glock, XD and M&P pistols, Benelli and Remington shotguns: barrel, sight, trigger and receiver work.
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  #31  
Old 11-02-2017, 7:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike402 View Post
My original thinking was that wrapping it around the tripod leg would stabilize it better.
Don't do that.
Keep it on the gun.
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AR work: www.ar15barrels.com
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Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com
Glock, XD and M&P pistols, Benelli and Remington shotguns: barrel, sight, trigger and receiver work.
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  #32  
Old 11-02-2017, 7:57 PM
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Nice shooting. I will definitely flip my tripod around to have the two legs upfront, I was shooting with the single leg out front.

Can your sling go in between the legs so it’s pulling in more of a downward pressure?

Chad
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Old 11-02-2017, 8:55 PM
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Default Any Tripod shooters out there? Need help with new setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
If he's behind the gun right, he won't get scope shading.


Yep, but as you know it doesn’t take much to get .1 or .2 shift.. even without noticing any actual shadow. Hell guys chase there 100 yard zeros all the time because of that. With all the stuff going on with shooting off the tripod, just like a barricade, it is almost impossible to “exactly replicate” the prone head position. Mikes shooting is very good either way, but I was addressing the tiny .1mil offset he saw. I’ll get them too, sling or no sling.

FWIW- Guys the rear facing leg is as I mentioned very good as it helps with recoil and lowers the need for some of the shooters input needed. But it can not be used in some positions, rotation slightly to towards 7 or 5 (depending if your left or right handed) will allow you to shoot positions were the leg might otherwise be in the way. If you find that you might be shooting in various positions where the leg might get in your way, it may be best just to practice that way.

Edited to add: Great Picture!




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Last edited by diver160651; 11-03-2017 at 8:06 AM..
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  #34  
Old 11-02-2017, 9:23 PM
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Spyder Spyder is offline
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Dang. I'm going to have some reading to do! I got in to a hog saddle and manfrotto last spring and love it, but it looks like I'm going to have a lot of work to do still!
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Old 11-02-2017, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggs75 View Post
Nice shooting. I will definitely flip my tripod around to have the two legs upfront, I was shooting with the single leg out front.

Can your sling go in between the legs so itís pulling in more of a downward pressure?

Chad
Thanks...I'm gonna still play around with it, but the only concern with straight down is that it will get in the way of the handle out of the bottom of the leveling base.

Honestly I'm satisfied with it at this point. I'm confident in being able to engage 1-2 MOA sized targets now with the tripod, so that gives me a good idea of my max efffective range with this setup. Just like everything else with this sport, small changes to technique & practice can dramatically improve results. Helps having knowledgeable people guide you along the way. I don't think I would have come up with these ideas on my own, especially spinning the legs around the other way.
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