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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #1  
Old 02-18-2018, 8:39 PM
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Default Whats the best way to distinguish shots in a ladder test?

I have seen sharpie marks on projectiles and cameras used to perform laddrer testing, but have never performed one or seen anyone do it first hand.

Whats the easiest way to get this right? I understand the concept and accept that it works, but it is about an hour and a half drive to fo this at 300y, and i can only do it on certain weekdays. At 300, i dont think i can see my hits from the bench to note the order.

I plan to carefully correlate the stepped loads with accuracy nodes, but i am looking for the best way to get this right on the first try.

I have sharpies and a go pro, and am thinking about using both to make sure i get it right.

I also considered separate targets on the same large white board, but i think it would be difficult to correlate the separate targets into one meaningful group to analyze it.

To review, my plan is to load from the starting load to the max load in .2 increments, carefully checking each round for pressure signs after firing.

I understand what i am looking for, but am concerned that without a system, it will be hard if not impossible to decide which loads made which holes.

This is 308 winchester load, for a 24” 700 5r.
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Old 02-18-2018, 9:15 PM
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The lighter Colors don't seem to show up as well as the darker colors so if you can't borrow a higher magnification scope or spotting scope video your hits.
Take notes so you know which shot is which and you are all set.
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Old 02-18-2018, 10:10 PM
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Do it out in the desert with a buddy downrange who can walk over to the target and mark each shot with your charge weight.
Use radios to communicate when the range is safe and when it's hot.
10-20 ft of space between the shooter and the bullet path is quite safe.
When you are in pits, the bullets are often just 3ft above your head.

Your downrange spotter can also give you wind calls which will dramatically narrow up your ladder, making it easier to read.
600yds will give a much easier to read ladder than 300.
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Old 02-19-2018, 12:45 AM
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Quote:
I also considered separate targets on the same large white board, but i think it would be difficult to correlate the separate targets into one meaningful group to analyze it.
Could you overlay the targets after you've shot them to get your desired info?
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Old 02-19-2018, 4:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
The lighter Colors don't seem to show up as well as the darker colors so if you can't borrow a higher magnification scope or spotting scope video your hits.
Take notes so you know which shot is which and you are all set.

rubbing alcohol on a Q-tip will bring the lighter colors out.
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Old 02-19-2018, 6:58 AM
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sharpies on bullets have been known to change the POI relative to a naked bullet.

do it on a range with a puller or do it with a shot camera to mark the shots
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Old 02-19-2018, 7:14 AM
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Default Whats the best way to distinguish shots in a ladder test?

The OCW shows harmonics changes - the 300 yard ladder does the same plus the SD ES runs in to further influence POI.

I get that they both have a place, but had faster and better results using the OWC “round robin” over something like an optical or Labradar chronograph- These are acting secondary to confirm the the velocity in the groups that have the similar POI have similar SDs and Velocity. As such, the chrono- is working in conjunction with the OWC to act a bit like the ladder, without the wind etc. I think the super thick benchrest barrels and benchrests tend to shoot much more precisely so the longer range development might work much better.

FWIW; I have seen several guys shooting ladders that have so much shooter influence in the mix it makes little sense.

Back to the colored projectiles for 300 yard ladders. I’ve never had enough colors. I have only had black, blue, red and green. These all print fine but not enough to cover all the charge weights. So I’ve just posted up 4 white printer paper sheets with a black spot in the middle separately on the same backer. Then pull and look and compare-

Not saying this anything more than what I have been doing.






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Old 02-19-2018, 7:19 AM
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I did the marker trick and it worked out pretty well. I had only enough colors to do half of my rounds, so I shot the first half, went and marked them, then shot my second half.

The other way I would do it on a public range is to use a large shoot n see target. With your rifle scope you can easily see those holes at 300 yards. Just mark down the approximate impact on a note pad at the the bench after each shot. If you want/need a really large shoot n see you can make one from poster board, packing tape, and spray paint. Get a bright color poster board, and cover it with a single layer of packing tape. Spray the taped up board with black spray paint. Stick a single dot on there and you have a nice large target.
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Old 02-19-2018, 8:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diver160651 View Post
The OCW shoes harmonics changes - the 300 yard ladder does the same plus the SD ES runs in to further influence POI.

I get that they both have a place, but had faster a better results doing the OWC “round robin” over something like an optical or Labradar - these are solely acting secondary to confirm the the velocity in the groups that have the similar POI have similar SDs and Velocity. As such, the chrono- is working in conjunction with the OWC to act a bit like the ladder, without the wind etc. I think the super thick benchrest barrels and benchrests tend to shoot much more precisely so the longer range development might work much better.

FWIW; I have seen several guys shooting ladders that have so much shooter influence in the mix it makes little sense.

Back to the colored projectiles for 300 yard ladders. I’ve never had enough colors. I have only had black, blue, red and green. These all print fine but not enough to cover all the charge weights. So I’ve just posted up 4 white printer paper sheets with a black stop in the middle separately on the same backer. Then pull and look and compare-

Not saying this anything more than what I have been doing.






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this right here^^^!!

if your not an experienced shooter and shooting off a concrete bench or a real nice front rest and bags then the chances of getting good data from a ladder test is pretty slim.

OCWs or this http://www.texasprc.club/preidloaddev is the fastest easiest ways ive found loads.
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
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this right here^^^!!

if your not an experienced shooter and shooting off a concrete bench or a real nice front rest and bags then the chances of getting good data from a ladder test is pretty slim.

OCWs or this http://www.texasprc.club/preidloaddev is the fastest easiest ways ive found loads.
I am shooting off a concrete bench, with a bipod and rear bag.

I have position shooting experience that goes way back, but i havent shot precision for a while.

No worrries about a group at 300.
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:52 AM
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If you can, eliminate the bipod and use a bag up front. It doesn't need to be fancy just something that will hold the rifle very steady. A leg off an old pair of pants filled partially with beans and sewn closed on both ends works very well.
You want to take as much of the shooter out of the equation as humanly possible.
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:58 AM
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2 phones and use Facetime to see the target live /real time.
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Old 02-19-2018, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
I am shooting off a concrete bench, with a bipod and rear bag.

I have position shooting experience that goes way back, but i havent shot precision for a while.

No worrries about a group at 300.
gotcha.

id been very interested to hear how your ladder test results turn out...and not so much the ladder test itself but if you actually find a load from the test.
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Old 02-19-2018, 7:46 PM
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The easiest way is to set up the same number of identical targets on a board at the distance at which you want to test. At 300 yards place three or four targets in three or four rows. Shoot one bullet at each target, left to right, top to bottom, using the same hold.

After you shoot, take down the all the targets, line up the edges carefully and trace the bullet hole on each target on to target one, (and number them).

When you're finished you will have target one with its bullet hole and outline of every other bullet hole from the other targets.

You can patch the bullet holes in targets 2-12 and re-use them with a new target 1 for your next test.
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Old 02-19-2018, 8:44 PM
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Why do people want a front bag vs a bipod?
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Old 02-19-2018, 8:56 PM
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Why do people want a front bag vs a bipod?
Bag is more solid.
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Old 02-20-2018, 7:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
I also considered separate targets on the same large white board, but i think it would be difficult to correlate the separate targets into one meaningful group to analyze it.
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Originally Posted by GW View Post
Could you overlay the targets after you've shot them to get your desired info?
This is exactly what you do. You can also correlate X and Y with your bullet speed doing it this way.

If you don't want to correlate the groups manually, buy OnTarget TDS for 35 bucks, which is the best 35 I have spent on gun stuff in a very long time. TDS will take all your targets, one bull, one hole, and build the whole group for you, give you group size, average-to-center, the offset to the point of aim, and if you input the bullet speed, will calculate average velocity and ES/SD and report it on the same target.






and I agree with diver and longrage1 100%. 100%.

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Old 02-20-2018, 10:33 AM
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I ordered some shoot n see targets that are 12”. I think I can see hits at 300 on that as suggested, I will just make notes as to location and charge weight as I fire.

Thanks for the input, and I will look at that program above. Looks handy.
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Old 02-20-2018, 11:00 AM
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Here's just one idea for use:

OnTarget spits out X, Y, Ave X, Ave Y, and you input velocity on a shot-by-shot basis, which you can do since it's one bull, one shot.

So whip out Excel and input Y, and velocity, per shot. Sort order in terms of Velocity/charge weight (you shot them in random order to control for thermal factors, right??), then subtract the Y value from the previous data point to get the Y-change from shot to shot.

Since you are doing this electronically, even 100 yard testing is OK for this, a computer can resolve the distance down to the pixel (1/300th of an inch).

You'll see an accordion pattern, with collective shots getting widely spaced and then tight, then wide. The tight being the nodes. At least, that's what the ladder test suggests you will see. If you are affected at 300, you are affected at 100.

You control for a bad shooter by taking multiple data points (I use 3x), and definitely shoot random order, even if you shoot 10x warmup rounds. it helps.

good luck to you.
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Old 02-21-2018, 9:25 AM
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Since you already have a GoPro number your brass 1 through XXX and simply look at the vertical spread.
This is a way easier process than it appears from reading this thread.
If your in Northern California you can do it with one of my rifles and see just how easy it is.
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Old 02-23-2018, 8:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
I am shooting off a concrete bench, with a bipod and rear bag.

I have position shooting experience that goes way back, but i havent shot precision for a while.

No worrries about a group at 300.
I'm a bit green on ladders admittedly, I've only done a few load developments with it and have gone back and shot ladders on other barrels that were developed with other methods so take it for what its worth.

You can color opposing sides different colors on the same bullet. Ex... green/red, red/blue, yellow/red, etc. Like longrange1 said, isopropyl alcohol will bring out the colors.
How small of a waterline can you hold? I wouldn't attempt it unless you can hold 1/4 moa vertical or better at distance or you will most likely get bad data. I would get bad data shooting off a bipod.
I've shot them from 300-800 yds. Listen to Randall, farther is better. Its easy to get conflicting results at 300.
I'll get some disagreement about this but finding seating depth prior to shooting the ladder gives me more consistent results. That flier from seating depth not optimized skewed my data more then once. For me, seating depth windows are smaller then powder charge windows. Seating depth development has to be done anyway so I do them 1st.
Lots of data to be gleamed from shooting a ladder. Powder, primers, bushing size, neck tension, whatever but you need to be able to shoot small to utilize it.
I don't want to dissuade you from doing it, I think you should try all the different methods and see what works for you.
One more thing, to take advantage of the ladder test you should have a scope that can resolve a small aiming point at whatever distance you shoot. Seeing a shoot and c should be pretty easy through your scope. You can transcribe what you see in your scope on to a piece of paper next to you unless the mirage is bad and you shouldn't be shooting a ladder in that mirage anyway.
Out of curiosity... What are your accuracy expectations?
Good luck

Last edited by eric n; 02-23-2018 at 9:08 AM..
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Old 02-28-2018, 7:46 AM
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Quote:
FWIW; I have seen several guys shooting ladders that have so much shooter influence in the mix it makes little sense.
I agree. Ladder test, bah! I have not bought in the "ladder group" concept, I think it is another lazy man's approach to load testing. The primary assumption is that the bullet is going where it is aimed, and that it is aimed true. I don't believe either is true for one shot groups.

I have been sorting out loads with five or ten shot groups. Stick with one bullet, increase the powder charge. See what happens. If I think the load has promise after five shot groups, I will shoot ten or twenty shot groups for verification. You have to get the round count up to determine if the load is any good at all. And for iffy loads, loads that could be good, or could be bad, but not sure because of "flyers", you have to test again to see if the flyers were due to the load, or the shooter.

And bad loads don't get better the further they go out. I am lucky because I can drive to CMP Talladega and shoot out to 600 yards on electronic targets. For my sporting rifles I generally quit at 300 yards. When something blows chunks at distance, it is not a good load.


This was a good load:







This factory ammunition did not do so well






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Old 02-28-2018, 9:04 AM
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da-ham...What a great looking range.. Luck you.
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Old 02-28-2018, 11:11 AM
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Reading thru this, why cant you use a spotting scope? I have an older Redfield 15-60; you can see 30 caliber at 300 yards with it. Have a spare target on the bench; mark each of your shots so you can track results.
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