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View Poll Results: Good or bad advice to be surprised by a shot?
Good advice 91 63.64%
Bad advice 26 18.18%
Bacon 26 18.18%
Voters: 143. You may not vote on this poll

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  #81  
Old 05-16-2018, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trackcage View Post
Bad advise and a crutch for more experienced shooters
Regardless of experience, slow press is the only technique for small targets.

Watch Jerry Miculek shoot 1,000 yards with 9mm revolver (go to 1 minute mark), or any top shooter do a trick shot (upside down, backwards, etc.). They all use the "press" technique. (This is the same Miculek who runs 0.13 and better splits on close targets.)
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  #82  
Old 05-16-2018, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MosinVirus View Post
no poll, but the trick I believe is to not "care" to know when the trigger breaks.
Hence letting it be a surprise, one that doesn't affect anything.
Mosin gets it.

The orig question "Squeeeeze until the bang surprises you?" ... although the idea is ok, it's worded poorly.

IMHO if you're 'surprised' by your gun going bang, you just had an ND!

If flinching or pulling your shots is the issue you're trying to fix, then focusing on a smooth trigger pull, steady sight picture, and 'not caring' when it goes bang is the key.
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  #83  
Old 05-16-2018, 12:15 PM
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I think this is foolish advice because after 100 rounds, even a beginner is going to know when the shot is going to break. The key is to not care when it breaks and the reality is that you're going to have to practice a bit until you 'get it'
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  #84  
Old 05-16-2018, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by MosinVirus View Post
I have handed her one of my .45acp 1911s before she ever shot a 1911. She was shooting her Glock 19 and VP9. She was a little worried about .45acp but she took it, aimed and hit dead center bullseye. All consecutive shots went low left.
Same story with my daughter, when she finally decided to try 9mm over .22.
First shot - bullseye, next was off the paper.

The point of the "surprise break" is to try not to anticipate the bang.

But to paraphrase Brian Enos (I think); if the sights are aligned and on target when the gun goes bang nothing else matters.
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  #85  
Old 05-16-2018, 12:25 PM
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Let the bang happen. 100% focus on the front sight. Press, press, press...bang...surprise!
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  #86  
Old 05-16-2018, 1:32 PM
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This is a technique, one of many, for learning to master your trigger pull. Something that takes a very long time and countless hours of live fire and dry fire practice.


Hard focus on the front sight. Slowly press/squeeze the trigger, as slow as you can, saying 'not yet, not yet, not yet' to yourself. Then when the trigger finally breaks it does so naturally...on it's own...WITHOUT you trying to control the moment it 'goes off'. No forcing, rushing, and jerking. And surprise surprise your shot is right where you were aiming. Now do it again...even slower.

The idea being, that your instinct is to control/force the moment the gun fires and in doing so you habitually pull/jerk the trigger which in turn pulls you off target and you shoot like _______.

Trigger control drills like the one above train you not to care or rather not to force the trigger. Doing it a few million times in slow motion trains you to do it right at speed. You just add the speed once you've got a handle on doing it slow.

I'll spend the first hour of training day at the range just on trigger control drills and other basics/fundamentals done very slowly. Then I will shoot at speed. When I get fatigued and my groupings at speed begin to open up beyond an acceptable margin, I stop and do trigger control drills again. This slows things down, helps me center myself and then I can go from there and decide how to wrap up my day. By this point I am usually pretty spent...and low on ammo.

Speed shouldn't matter, but it does. In our head it matters, so it ends up mattering in the real world. When we rush we screw everything up. We only learn to go fast by first going painfully slow. Hence the term smooth is fast and fast is smooth. You will eventually find that if you "take your time in a hurry" and do it only so fast as you can do it perfectly, you shoot just as quickly and a 1000 times better than if you go as fast as you can. Seriously, the bang will be at the same time. The only difference will be one way you hit exactly where you wanted and the other way you miss all together. Drills like the one above ensure you CAN do it smoothly. And every attempt isn't a hot mess.

Last edited by tacticalcity; 05-16-2018 at 1:44 PM..
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  #87  
Old 05-16-2018, 1:35 PM
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It doesn't work for everyone. However it's good practice for everyone. Trigger control is the single most important discipline right at the moment when the hammer/striker hits the primer. If you get to a point where you always squeeze and FOLLOW THROUGH WITH YOUR SHOT, whether you are surprised or not is incidental.
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  #88  
Old 05-16-2018, 1:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creampuff View Post
I think you are reading into the semantics of this way too much. As mentioned before, it just means don't anticipate. It doesn't mean each shot will freak out the shooter. SURPRISE. HAPPY BIRTHDAY!
Not that kind of surprise.

I just visualized a bunch of RSO running around with Scream Movie masks running behind shooters, tapping them on the shoulders while carrying a bloody knife in their hands.
Semantics is important. How is a newbie who has never fired a gun interpret "surprise"? His context is going be just that, an unexpected explosion. BANG! "Oh sh*t!" BANG "Oh sh*t!

Better advice is "don't anticipate the recoil".

Quote:
Originally Posted by A-J View Post
That advice is good for what it is - advice geared towards new shooters and people who flinch in anticipation of the shot. Nothing more nothing less.
I agree on the intended advice, but not the word choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IVC View Post
Trigger press is one of the fundamental techniques of shooting pistols and rifles. It's not about avoiding flinch at all (although it does help with it), but about not disturbing the sight picture as the shot is fired.

The idea is also not to be surprised by the shot (although it is one of the unintended consequences), but to prevent any disturbance of the sight picture at the last moment.

This technique is used for bulls eye and other precision shooting. It necessarily involves stacking of DA triggers and shooting revolvers in SA mode. As the pressure on the trigger is increased, all the slack/creep/first stage/grit will be taken out and there will be a point where adding pressure doesn't move the trigger any further without firing the gun. With fine muscle control, this is the point where the sights are completely stabilized and then a minute added pressure releases the hammer/striker without any perceptible movement of the trigger (or sights).

However, this is ONE of the techniques, suitable for SOME types of shooting. It can be right or wrong based on the application. Either way, it MUST be mastered as the primary technique of slow fire.
Yes, I agree with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexisjohnson View Post
I think this is foolish advice because after 100 rounds, even a beginner is going to know when the shot is going to break. The key is to not care when it breaks and the reality is that you're going to have to practice a bit until you 'get it'
Yep

Quote:
Originally Posted by tacticalcity View Post
This is a technique, one of many, for learning to master your trigger pull. Something that takes a very long time and countless hours of live fire and dry fire practice.


Hard focus on the front sight. Slowly press/squeeze the trigger, as slow as you can, saying 'not yet, not yet, not yet' to yourself. Then when the trigger finally breaks it does so naturally...on it's own...WITHOUT you trying to control the moment it 'goes off'. No forcing, rushing, and jerking. And surprise surprise your shot is right where you were aiming. Now do it again...even slower.

The idea being, that your instinct is to control/force the moment the gun fires and in doing so you habitually pull/jerk the trigger which in turn pulls you off target and you shoot like _______.

Trigger control drills like the one above train you not to care or rather not to force the trigger. Doing it a few million times in slow motion trains you to do it right at speed. You just add the speed once you've got a handle on doing it slow.

I'll spend the first hour of training day at the range just on trigger control drills and other basics/fundamentals done very slowly. Then I will shoot at speed. When I get fatigued and my groupings at speed begin to open up beyond an acceptable margin, I stop and do trigger control drills again. This slows things down, helps me center myself and then I can go from there and decide how to wrap up my day. By this point I am usually pretty spent...and low on ammo.
Yes, that's much better instruction than "every shot should be a surprise".


Quote:
Originally Posted by meno377 View Post
It doesn't work for everyone. However it's good practice for everyone. Trigger control is the single most important discipline right at the moment when the hammer/striker hits the primer. If you get to a point where you always squeeze and FOLLOW THROUGH WITH YOUR SHOT, whether you are surprised or not is incidental.
Yep
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  #89  
Old 05-16-2018, 8:39 PM
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Stupid advice. You should be competent enough that the break never surprises you. If your break on your trigger surprises you then you don't shoot enough.
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  #90  
Old 05-16-2018, 9:25 PM
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I think it's ok advice for new shooters. However, as experience builds, repetition should ultimately lead to knowing when the shot is going to break.
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  #91  
Old 05-16-2018, 10:12 PM
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Based on the title I thought this was another ok Cupid poll.

Personally I feel it is better to learn where the break is. Don’t let it surprise you, but don’t let it make you flinch either.
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  #92  
Old 05-16-2018, 10:32 PM
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I'm curious to find out at what distances those techniques work at. What is the farthest you shot using your technique

3yrd , 7 , 15 ....25yds ...50.....100yds?
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  #93  
Old 05-16-2018, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Thefeeder View Post
I'm curious to find out at what distances those techniques work at. What is the farthest you shot using your technique

3yrd , 7 , 15 ....25yds ...50.....100yds?
You mean the "squeeeeeeze until the bang surprises you" technique? 100 yds., easy. My shooting buddies and I ring the steel on the 100 yd. line at ASR pretty regularly (back when I shot regularly, that is). We tried the 200 yd. steel targets over on the rifle side, but the ROs said there was a barrel length minimum (7.5", IIRC) for rifle side, so that ruled out most of my favorite range toys. Most people have trouble hitting the steel at the 35 yd. line. All bang no ding.
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  #94  
Old 05-17-2018, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BamBam-31 View Post
You mean the "squeeeeeeze until the bang surprises you" technique? 100 yds., easy. My shooting buddies and I ring the steel on the 100 yd. line at ASR pretty regularly (back when I shot regularly, that is). We tried the 200 yd. steel targets over on the rifle side, but the ROs said there was a barrel length minimum (7.5", IIRC) for rifle side, so that ruled out most of my favorite range toys. Most people have trouble hitting the steel at the 35 yd. line. All bang no ding.
Well...there was that time when we were shooting at steel from the back side of the upper most range (Eagle's Nest?).

Wasn't that 250-300 yards?
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  #95  
Old 05-17-2018, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post
Well...there was that time when we were shooting at steel from the back side of the upper most range (Eagle's Nest?).

Wasn't that 250-300 yards?
Err....I plead the 5th.
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  #96  
Old 05-17-2018, 6:28 PM
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Originally Posted by BamBam-31 View Post
Err....I plead the 5th.
My memory might be a bit cloudy too
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  #97  
Old 05-18-2018, 2:19 PM
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I squeeze until the bang surprises her

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Old 05-18-2018, 5:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911su16b870 View Post
Let the bang happen. 100% focus on the front sight. Press, press, press...bang...surprise!
Absolutely!

Yes! PRESS the trigger! You must be a 1911 guy. No need to "squeeze" the trigger.

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