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  #201  
Old 07-13-2018, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by IVC View Post
And, people are free to go into any inner city ghetto and yell racial slurs from the top of their lungs. It's still an insult regardless of the right to do it.
Well, actually that might have some restrictions on it. Like most Amendments of the Constitution they are not unlimited rights. For instance, not withstanding the First Amendment you are not free to yell "fire" in a theater. Nor are you free to yell insults if your intent is to disturb the peace or incite violence.

With respect to the flag, the SCOTUS has upheld the right to burn the flag in protest, no matter how disrespectful or insulting you or I may find it to be.

And so people are not confused, I find flag burning to be a true insult and think people who do it are A-holes of the highest order. But I also understand that part of the price of living in this country is the fact that I may be exposed to things I do not like, but trying to infringe on the right of others to express their opinions, no matter how distasteful, is to me and unpatriotic thing to do.
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  #202  
Old 07-13-2018, 1:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Jefferson Prepared View Post
Ever notice we don't seem to meddle a lot in countries that don't have resources we use?
"Meddle" and "Exploit" are quite different concepts. You mentioned exploitation.
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  #203  
Old 07-13-2018, 1:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Eureka1911 View Post
For instance, not withstanding the First Amendment you are not free to yell "fire" in a theater. Nor are you free to yell insults if your intent is to disturb the peace or incite violence.
Insults by themselves are not "inciting violence." We've seen that with Charlie Hebdo. The criminality of "inciting violence" is a separate issue from free speech. If a bunch of bikers beat up flag burners, I'm pretty sure that flag burners wouldn't be charged with "inciting violence." That's just not how it works.

As a side issue, you are in fact completely within your right to yell fire in a crowded theater if there is an actual fire. Again, it's not a "speech issue."
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  #204  
Old 07-13-2018, 1:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Eureka1911 View Post
Well, actually that might have some restrictions on it. Like most Amendments of the Constitution they are not unlimited rights. For instance, not withstanding the First Amendment you are not free to yell "fire" in a theater. Nor are you free to yell insults if your intent is to disturb the peace or incite violence.

With respect to the flag, the SCOTUS has upheld the right to burn the flag in protest, no matter how disrespectful or insulting you or I may find it to be.

And so people are not confused, I find flag burning to be a true insult and think people who do it are A-holes of the highest order. But I also understand that part of the price of living in this country is the fact that I may be exposed to things I do not like, but trying to infringe on the right of others to express their opinions, no matter how distasteful, is to me and unpatriotic thing to do.
The whole "yell fire in a theater" quote comes from U.S. v. Schenck which was later overturned.....just saying.
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  #205  
Old 07-13-2018, 1:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Eureka1911 View Post
Well, actually that might have some restrictions on it. Like most Amendments of the Constitution they are not unlimited rights. For instance, not withstanding the First Amendment you are not free to yell "fire" in a theater. Nor are you free to yell insults if your intent is to disturb the peace or incite violence.

With respect to the flag, the SCOTUS has upheld the right to burn the flag in protest, no matter how disrespectful or insulting you or I may find it to be.

And so people are not confused, I find flag burning to be a true insult and think people who do it are A-holes of the highest order. But I also understand that part of the price of living in this country is the fact that I may be exposed to things I do not like, but trying to infringe on the right of others to express their opinions, no matter how distasteful, is to me and unpatriotic thing to do.
There is no physical pre-existing restriction preventing a person from yelling fire. False analogy.
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  #206  
Old 07-13-2018, 1:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Eureka1911 View Post
And many people should work a little harder at understanding that the Freedoms the flag represents include the freedom to burn the flag. Like it or not, people in this country are generally free to say things and have opinions that you may not like.

I do not like seeing the flag burned, but I understand the right of people to do so in the act of political protest. To try to stop that violates both the spirit and intent of the First Amendment. Telling people to "shut up", "get out", or other such attitudes to me are the singular most unpatriotic thing a person can do.

I agree with the saying that "I may not agree with a single word you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

BTW, while on the subject of respecting the flag, I'm betting not a single (or married ) person here will find objection to this image, despite it being in direct violation of the flag code, as are almost every other type of flag clothing.

Attachment 722327
at what point did i say it anything about burning a flag?

do people have the right to do that? sure.
is that hurting me? nope
does that show deep disrespect for our country and those that died to defend it. imho, yes.

it is really about intent isn't it?

if you're freezing to death and burn a flag to survive, no offense is intended.

if you're waving a mexican or antifa flag while burning the stars and stripes your intention is clear. you are trying to insult me and my country and i will act as i feel is appropriate in response to that insult.
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  #207  
Old 07-13-2018, 2:29 PM
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There is no physical pre-existing restriction preventing a person from yelling fire. False analogy.
You might want to take a look at the SCOTUS case of Schenck v. United States

From that case:

Quote:
The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic. [...] The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent.
Again, it is about intent. You can yell fire if there is in fact a fire, but you cannot if you are doing it falsely in order to incite panic. Same with yelling racial slurs in the "ghetto". Fine if you just want to yell them as a general insult. Not fine if you are doing it to incite violence.
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  #208  
Old 07-13-2018, 2:34 PM
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at what point did i say it anything about burning a flag?
The response I quoted of yours was a response to another post specifically talking about flag burning. Sorry if the continuity of comments got obscured.

Quote:
do people have the right to do that? sure.
is that hurting me? nope
does that show deep disrespect for our country and those that died to defend it. imho, yes.

it is really about intent isn't it?

if you're freezing to death and burn a flag to survive, no offense is intended.

if you're waving a mexican or antifa flag while burning the stars and stripes your intention is clear. you are trying to insult me and my country and i will act as i feel is appropriate in response to that insult.
Unfortunately your last example is exactly a situation where flag burning would be protected political speech. While you may be offended by it, you have no right to attempt to stifle it if your truly believe in the 1st Amendment.
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  #209  
Old 07-13-2018, 2:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Eureka1911 View Post
The response I quoted of yours was a response to another post specifically talking about flag burning. Sorry if the continuity of comments got obscured.



Unfortunately your last example is exactly a situation where flag burning would be protected political speech. While you may be offended by it, you have no right to attempt to stifle it if your truly believe in the 1st Amendment.
totally understand and not disagreeing.
they have every right that many of us paid for...

all i am saying (which is really outside of the flag argument) is that if you insult me, and i understand that this is your intention, i am liable to react.
i didn't mean to say i would try to stop them from exercising their rights.

if they don't want a reaction, why insult me?

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  #210  
Old 07-13-2018, 2:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Eureka1911 View Post
You might want to take a look at the SCOTUS case of Schenck v. United States

From that case:



Again, it is about intent. You can yell fire if there is in fact a fire, but you cannot if you are doing it falsely in order to incite panic. Same with yelling racial slurs in the "ghetto". Fine if you just want to yell them as a general insult. Not fine if you are doing it to incite violence.
If no violence occurs, no crime has been committed.
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  #211  
Old 07-13-2018, 3:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Eureka1911 View Post
The response I quoted of yours was a response to another post specifically talking about flag burning. Sorry if the continuity of comments got obscured.



Unfortunately your last example is exactly a situation where flag burning would be protected political speech. While you may be offended by it, you have no right to attempt to stifle it if your truly believe in the 1st Amendment.
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totally understand and not disagreeing.
they have every right that many of us paid for...

all i am saying (which is really outside of the flag argument) is that if you insult me, and i understand that this is your intention, i am liable to react.
i didn't mean to say i would try to stop them from exercising their rights.

if they don't want a reaction, why insult me?
perhaps an example will illustrate what i mean...

if i see a hippy type wearing a peace shirt and burning the flag, i assume he is unhappy with our involvement in foreign wars and is angry that obama funded terrorists in syria, elevating a small conflict to full blown war, resulting in 100s of thousands of deaths and millions of refugees.
i might sit down next to him, because he is right that obama and clinton are responsible for countless deaths and should rot in hell (if there is one).

on the other hand, if it is some spoiled white kid wearing an antifa shirt, i assume he hates my america, the one that i grew up in, and hates everything i stand for. in this case, i will not try to stop him from burning the flag and exercising his rights. what i will do is react to his insult in some manner.
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  #212  
Old 07-13-2018, 3:05 PM
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Many lefties want gun control because they know that they are mentally unstable enough that they can't be trusted with firearms, so by extension, everyone else must be crazy and/or irresponsible enough that they can't be trusted with them either.
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^^^^THIS^^^^

They are emotionally unstable, just watch their reactions to various Trump policies.
Agree 100%.

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  #213  
Old 07-14-2018, 2:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Eureka1911 View Post
Again, it is about intent. You can yell fire if there is in fact a fire, but you cannot if you are doing it falsely in order to incite panic. Same with yelling racial slurs in the "ghetto". Fine if you just want to yell them as a general insult. Not fine if you are doing it to incite violence.
You might want to think about your comment above in terms of what one can/is capable of doing within a civil-right (or not choosing to do, for the sake of following the law) regardless of consequences, versus what the government does to stop your ability to do something constitutionally protected at all, without having ever given any indication you would erroneously yell "fire" in a crowded theater in the first place.

For that matter, yelling fire in a crowded theater when there actually IS a fire is constitutionally protected.

Just because you have a mouth does not mean you are going to use it to cause harm or incite a riot.

Such as is the same for the right to keep and bear arms. Your right to protect yourself and the lives of others with a firearm is constitutionally protected. Just because you own a firearm does not automatically mean your only use of it is to cause unprovoked harm to others.

Within your First Amendment rights, government is not surgically removing your vocal chords just to be sure you DON'T yell "fire" in a crowded theater merely because someone else has or might be prone to do so.

That is simply thought policing and a right denied.

It's no different than banning, prohibiting, registering, or instigating other infringements of your 2nd Amendment rights because government suggests you 'might' shoot someone unprovoked even though you have given government no cause or reason to think you would do such a thing.

Yet here is government, using unfounded fear to remove or prevent possession of the tools of the 2nd Amendment, no different than if they removed your vocal chords, where these tools were intended to be free without infringement to keep tyranny in check.

Just as tyranny has been known to ban gun ownership, it has also been known to kill, imprison, or cut out the tongues of those who speak against tyranny, force sterilization, concentration camps, and more.

From your argument above, you are asking for government to proceed with preemptive actions concerning the First Amendment as they do with the 2nd Amendment!

Be careful for what you wish, because after they ban/restrict ownership of guns, that part about political imprisonment and cutting out tongues often follows.

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  #214  
Old 07-14-2018, 2:48 PM
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I was listening to NPR, the National mouth piece for all things liberal and progressive, just to catch up on their latest series of outrages and resistance.

They ran an hour discussion about suicide. One of the conclusions was publicizing suicides encourage copycats. This was not just theory but backed up by empirical facts. Many suicide prevention groups in Europe and America have encouraged their legislators to politely request the press not to publish suicide stories. Amazingly in many countries the press voluntarily complied as it was for the common good.

The same conclusion of copycats can also be empirically proven about school shooters. So why doesn’t the legislature encourage the press to stop glorifying school shooting. It’s certainly for more common good than preventing suicides. Perhaps the crusade to eliminate 2A, which is dependent on these mass school shootings, is of greater importance that then annual tally of dead school children.


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  #215  
Old 07-14-2018, 3:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve1968LS2 View Post
The reason he is still here is that our side believes in free speech. Of course, we can still call him out as a shill and point out the ignorance of his argument.

But unlike the intolerant left, we don't don't need to silence the other side since we have the strength of our argument.

Of course, that doesn't mean we have to put up with trollish behavior

You see, the left (OP included) believe people, especially minorities, are too stupid to make it through life without the govt there to guide them and tell them what to do .. to pretty much save them from themselves.

They are the ultimate racists, which has always been the case all the way back to before they formed the KKK.
Frankly I'm trying to figure out why this thread continued beyond this post.

Put simply we're not them, we don't ban people for a difference of opinion.

Break the rules and you're gone but having an unpopular viewpoint is not a violation of the rules.
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  #216  
Old 07-14-2018, 3:37 PM
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Frankly I'm trying to figure out why this thread continued beyond this post.

Put simply we're not them, we don't ban people for a difference of opinion.

Break the rules and you're gone but having an unpopular viewpoint is not a violation of the rules.
Because it's the internet?
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More what? More crazy?
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  #217  
Old 07-14-2018, 3:39 PM
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Because it's the internet?
Well there is that isn't there?
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  #218  
Old 07-14-2018, 3:57 PM
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Frankly I'm trying to figure out why this thread continued beyond this post.

Put simply we're not them, we don't ban people for a difference of opinion.

Break the rules and you're gone but having an unpopular viewpoint is not a violation of the rules.
An inability to correctly and thoroughly rebut incorrect information is my guess. If you can't argue your point without complete agreement, you aren't informed enough to justify having an opinion in the first place.
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  #219  
Old 07-14-2018, 3:58 PM
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Appeasing gun-grabbers, generally couched as “compromise,” is impossible. It’s like throwing a scrap of flesh to a circling pack of jackals and expecting them to be sated and leave you alone — instead of sensing opportunity and fear, and moving in closer.
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  #220  
Old 07-15-2018, 3:18 AM
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With respect to the flag, the SCOTUS has upheld the right to burn the flag in protest, no matter how disrespectful or insulting you or I may find it to be.



Ahhhh... ye olde "freedom of arson!"


I'm thinking, that burning of LOTS of things should count as, 'freedom of... "speech"...' Sorta like "The Purge," only with fire.
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  #221  
Old 07-15-2018, 5:31 AM
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Did you miss the part where I said Capitalism is more robust that Communism?

As for genocidal Capitalist countries, I'd certainly put the USofA in that category during certain administrations (certainly under Andrew Jackson, but you can also make the case for those presiding during our various forays into Asia, Central America, & the Middle East).

For a more recent example of a Capitalist "genocidal dictatorship" -- look at Chile under Pinochet.
Most of the communists killed or imprisoned by Pinochet happened after they tried to assassinate him. The communists also lost the support of other leftist parties after they resorted to violence.

The 3200 killed by Pinochet pales in comparison to the 125,000,000 + killed by communists during the 20th century.
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  #222  
Old 07-15-2018, 7:34 AM
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Frankly I'm trying to figure out why this thread continued beyond this post.

Put simply we're not them, we don't ban people for a difference of opinion.

Break the rules and you're gone but having an unpopular viewpoint is not a violation of the rules.
Yep.. if we were on a site like DU and posted our "right wing" views we would be gone in a heartbeat.

Why? Because deep down the left knows it's wrong but they don't care because the agenda is more important. Given this they can't have members exposed to logic/facts since some of them could be swayed to think for themselves, which would be the death of the far left wing of the dem party.

I enjoy reading the other sides ramblings, makes me feel MORE secure in my beliefs.
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  #223  
Old 07-15-2018, 7:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve1968LS2 View Post
Yep.. if we were on a site like DU and posted our "right wing" views we would be gone in a heartbeat.

Why? Because deep down the left knows it's wrong but they don't care because the agenda is more important. Given this they can't have members exposed to logic/facts since some of them could be swayed to think for themselves, which would be the death of the far left wing of the dem party.

I enjoy reading the other sides ramblings, makes me feel MORE secure in my beliefs.
I look forward to destroying the perpetually incorrect arguments of leftist opponents of civil rights. My civility is gone, but knowing the latest/greatest argument they use hones my points. Using data and facts like weapons makes me smile. Gutting them in public is always a good thing.
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  #224  
Old 07-15-2018, 8:40 AM
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I look forward to destroying the perpetually incorrect arguments of leftist opponents of civil rights. My civility is gone, but knowing the latest/greatest argument they use hones my points. Using data and facts like weapons makes me smile. Gutting them in public is always a good thing.
I've grown similar in my old age. The older I get, the less I can tolerate nonsense, so I openly call out nonsense. Unfortunately, with the present anti-1A climate of the left, it isn't always safe to call out said nonsense.
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Old 07-15-2018, 10:40 AM
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I've grown similar in my old age. The older I get, the less I can tolerate nonsense, so I openly call out nonsense. Unfortunately, with the present anti-1A climate of the left, it isn't always safe to call out said nonsense.
Rattling cages and annoying our enemies will never be safe. It will always be necessary.
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Jon Lovitz: ‘I can’t wait to go to a hospital run by the DMV!’

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Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
Dude went full CNN...
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Old 07-15-2018, 12:21 PM
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The War Wagon The War Wagon is offline
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I'm here for dem milfy's, lookin' for action!


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