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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here. |
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#1
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Where do I start out?
Hello,
I'm located in Orange County and would like to start learning more about competition shooting. Are there any ranges with classes semi close? Raahauges is closest to me about 40 minutes. Suggestions? |
#2
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Check this map out
https://practiscore.com/search/matches EDIT: Some questions to ask yourself Type of competition you are interested in (Get to know the rules for each type of competition) Distance you are willing to travel Goals for competition (some people just want extra trigger time on a non-static range, others want to compete and see where they stand) Some things to do Watch videos related to the competition(s) you are interested in Research what type of gear you'll need for each type of competition Consider visiting an upcoming match (it's free to watch, but you'll probably end up wishing you shot it!) Ask the questions (the Match Director can be a good resource, as can other competitors) You've got quite a few options around you depending on how far you are willing to travel. I'm on the Central Coast and have traveled out to Piru, Bakersfield, and Tulare for Level 1 USPSA matches (basically anywhere from 2-3.5 hours drive). Your situation is, of course, your own. I will say that I've never been disappointed in any of the away matches I've gone to. Especially with Piru's open squadding policy. Any particular type of competition shooting? The folks out a Pala often post their stage diagrams in this sub forum. You can also check out youtube vids. Many shooters will title their videos based on the type of competition along with the date and the range/club and perhaps the division/class e.g., I usually title mine SLOSA USPSA (whatever date). That can give you an idea of what to expect. You can also do general youtube searches for whatever type of competition. Last edited by Rez805; 01-19-2018 at 7:43 PM.. |
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I think I'd like to know where I stand and do some entry level competition. Preferably within 1.5 hours or so. I played tournament paintball for about 8 years, during college and after. Really miss that competition aspect. But flying and staying in a hotel for 3-4 day weekends are not really going to happen now with family etc. What got me thinking of competition shooting was because I had a couple friends who I've lost connection with, that went into competition 3 gun I think. So just thought about entertaining the idea. I will take you up on that offer from checking some YouTube videos I've seen a few but not really searched specific competitions. I guess what type of competition, and the simple answer is one that doesn't cost me an arm and a leg to get setup with. I'm not in the position to have a tricked out $3000 handgun. I'd have to sell a beater car for that. Lol. Thanks again for the reply |
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IDPA is generally speaking the lowest cost to get into. I help out with the local University's club and I usually start students in IDPA for a couple of reasons: 1) Low cost for someone who doesn't already have a decent set of equipment 2) Stage plans are laid out. It just boils down to execution 3) Technically speaking, you can take all of the rules in IDPA and run with them in USPSA. If you were to go the other way (USPSA mindset into IDPA) you would probably rack up a lot of penalties 4) "Time Plus" scoring is easier to explain USPSA is where I find myself these days. The stage briefing is basically "engage targets as they become available". In other words, you make up your own plan. Check out some of the stage diagrams from LDF (Pala) in this subforum. They post a youtube vid that shows a general layout of the course of fire. You can also search youtube for that exact match (assuming that it has already been shot). USPSA uses hit factor scoring. It takes into account scoring zones along with the time taken to complete a course of fire. Hit Factor = Points / Time You don't necessarily need a $3,000 gun to compete. Each sport has different equipment divisions. Production is the most "basic" so to speak. Very little modification is allowed externally (i.e., no dots, comps, magwells, external trigger mods), but you can still modify the internals. There is something of a "handicap" where you must have 10 rounds in the magazine after the start of the buzzer. A $3,000 production gun? I can't imagine what that would be. But I can definitely see a $3,000 Open and possibly Limited gun happening--that is if you include mags. Here's a list of approved Production Division handguns for USPSA https://uspsa.org/productionlist As you can see, pretty much anything you can pick up in a store. If you do jump straight to USPSA, keep in mind that regulation stages generally don't exceed 32 rounds. It's still recommended that you have at least 5 magazines if you run in a low-cap division (Production, Single Stack (i.e, 1911's), Limited 10, Revo). A double belt is pretty much standard in USPSA. Here's the official blurb (from 2014) from USPSA You can also find footage from State Championships, Area Championships (That's USPSA-speak for a region. For example, CA is in Area 2. There are 8 Areas) and even National Championships on youtube. Feel free to keep the thread going if you have any question and good luck! Last edited by Rez805; 01-19-2018 at 9:29 PM.. |
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Thank you. And hopefully this thread will help other beginners out too. |
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His advice is very great, I'll add my own that's a little different.
What pistols do you currently own you think you'd want to compete with? If you absolutely have to shoot with a pistol you currently own knowing that information we can help guide you a little better. If you have a budget to buy "stuff" then that changes things. For example to go into IDPA and SSP division from "I have nothing" to "I'm shooting with acceptable beginner stuff" would be like this: Glock 34 in 9mm. $550 Wilderness Instructor belt. $40 5.11 Concealment vest. $80 CompTac holster and mag pouches. $65 and $50 2 Glock magazines. $60 That's $845 dollars to walk in the door if you have to buy decent everything right off the bat. Doing the same for USPSA to start in Production with nothing would be: Glock 34. $550 Belt, holster, hanger, pouches complete kit from Benstoegerproshop $310 4 Glock magazines $120 For $980 to start with a no excuses, off the bat set up. So first step, look at what you already own and how much money you have. Honestly. Then watch matches in person or on line and see what you think. You can probably easily find competitor's videos online of the matches near you, you'd like to attend or participate in. Third, read the rule book online for which ever one you're most interested in. Most of it will mean nothing to you, but it will later. Better to front load some of that stuff so it's not an out of the blue thing. Fourth gut check your ability to move and shoot with your muzzle always down range and your finger off the trigger. Gut check your marksmanship abilitly. Gut check your gun manipulation skills. If you assess what you can actually do a little bit before hand in these areas you decrease your chance of getting DQ-ed your first match. Now you've done wayyyyy more pre-work before most people who show up to their first match. Which normally is a gun they own, a dress belt or mmmmaybe a rigger's belt style. A cheap, sub optimal holster. Cheap mag pouches, poorly placed. Two to three mags. And guess what? They get by. People help them. They have fun. They may kind of just be along for the ride during the match but they're out there. So what do you want to do? Spend a fair bit of time and maybe money then show up being a little more prepared. Or just take what you got and wing it and figure it out as you go? (Most people do the latter when they start)
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Competition is where you find out you're slow, can't see well, are not accurate, have poor gun handling, can't visualize, have equipment that doesn't work and either accept it OR DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. USPSA TY82278 IDPA A54426 |
#7
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To give a personal example here is my story:
I was out shooting a pistol in the desert with my son. We started seeing who could shoot what. A light bulb went off in my head, "I wonder if you can compete against other people shooting a pistol?" I went home and googled "san diego pistol shooting competition" and got the website of the local uspsa club. I read the faq on their site and then did a contact us email through the site. They emailed me back and forth answering my questions. Because of the equipment I had at the time. A 9mm pistol and 3 ten round magazines. No holster or mag pouches or anthing yet, they referred me to the local idpa club. So I email the local idpa club and they say you need a belt, a holster, a way to carry two mags on your belt, a gun and three mags. So I went to the surplus store and bought the cheapest webbing belt I could find and cloth mag pouches that fit on same. Then I just went and showed up the very next possible match, kept my mouth shut about "me" other than to say I was a beginner and just did what I was told. A very fun time and I was instantly hooked. And then aaaffffftttteeer the first match and in the following months that's when like a lot of people things got crazy. hahahaha. Buying a new gun, new gear, taking a class, shooting way more and on and on. hahahah.
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Competition is where you find out you're slow, can't see well, are not accurate, have poor gun handling, can't visualize, have equipment that doesn't work and either accept it OR DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. USPSA TY82278 IDPA A54426 |
#8
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As far as personal handguns. XD 9 service 6 mags XD 9 sub compact 4 mags M&P 9 compact 4 mags Looking at a HK p2000sk currently too. Have iwb holsters only currently for edc. I do have a decent EDC belt with a cobra buckle. Nothing crazy but found it on Amazon and has been doing well for past 6 months. Still very Ridgid. I do have an ability to pick up a Glock19 from a cousin who is possibly looking to get rid of it. Would that be that much better than my xd9? Am I "that" newb with the XD's and not a Glock guy? Haha Regarding your story, that's awesome. I have 2 girls, still too young to shoot. But maybe in next year or so I'll start teaching my oldest. I'll have to check out both idpa and uspsa. I'd probably lean towards IDPA not sure. |
#9
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From what you listed (guns, mags, belt, IWB holster) it looks like your good to go in IDPA--assuming that you have mag pouches that you can use. One of the unique aspects of IDPA is the use of a cover garment. The most popular (as you'll see in Rowdy's list) is a 5.11 tactical concealment garment. That's pretty much the "go-to" for IDPA. Personally, I just used a oversized rain jacket.
Definitely heed Rowdy's advice regarding the "gut check" with respect to moving and shooting in safe manner. Fortunately, you can build these skills in dry-fire practice before you even step foot into your first match. Quote:
Consider this. When I was getting my feet wet in USPSA, I shot a classifier and slipped. I had already beaten into my brain that reloads, movement, clearing jams, and "show clears" were to be performed with the finger outside of the trigger guard. During a fall, I would imagine that anyone's instinct would be to brace/clench pretty much everything. It could have been much, much worse. Fortunately, my hat caught most of the fall lol. Reduce the speed around 10 seconds to see the indexed finger With respect to a Glock 19 vs XD. It's really your choice. I wouldn't get too caught up in the "arms race". Just shoot what you like. Most of the shots you take are within 15 yards anyway. I shoot a 4.25 M&P and I don't feel that it keeps me from scoring acceptable hits. Last edited by Rez805; 01-20-2018 at 10:20 AM.. |
#10
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In your video you did a great job. Definitely a scary situation. Yea I really like my xd's and I get some of the hype of Glocks but quit honestly I don't want to spend any unnecessary money I don't have haha. I did just come across the Prado Olympic shooting range hosts uspsa club weekly for the Norco Running Gun. I will need to check that out. |
#11
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Your XD9 Service would probably allow you to compete in SSP, ESP (which is basically SSP with more mods), or CCP (which is basically small ESP). For a beginner the difference doesn’t matter much; you’re all comingled while shooting. It only matters in terms of trying to win a division or taking a classifier.
Personally, I shoot my Glock 19 CCP because CCP has a max mag capacity of 8, and Ilike being forced into additional reload practice. That said, I view IDPA as a way to become a better shooter. If you’re trying to play the game to win, you probably want a XD 5” or Glock 34 in SSP/ESP. |
#12
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If you're interested, a local instructor in Temecula has a class for beginners who are interested in USPSA. It's about safety, range commands and checking out the gear so you feel comfortable to show up at the first match.
You can look up the group on "MeetUp" at https://www.meetup.com/SoCal-Shooting-Events-Group/ Alternatively, you can go with all the great advice in this thread and just show up at the first match. It comes down to comfort level and how confident you are that you can be safe and handle the gun correctly at the match.
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NRA Benefactor Member |
#13
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This and your advice on the time commitment are very important. I am also thinking of doing USPSA or IDPA and when I did the calculation of how much money I have to spent to get started, it’s quite a bit more than I expected. And most matches are 1-2 hrs from home (or more) so it essentially means I’d have to take quite a bit of time for each event. I think the OP and the other noobs will benefit from your advice too. Thanks for posting, it’s all on point. |
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I think your first step should be to get some good solid tactical training to get your weapons manipulation skills and bio mechanics / body motion down and start to develop some muscle memory.
An ISDA or USPSA match is NOT the place to learn handgun presentations, manipulation and moving with / shooting your handgun. You need to bring those skills with you the first time you step out onto the range. YouTube videos and advice here in this forum ARE NOT and never will be substitutes for proper blocks of instruction from a qualified instructor. There is NOTHING worse that someone whose focus is on the the gear and the money showing up at a match only to see they cant shoot their way out of a paper bag or be safe while trying... For IDPA in Orange County (2x month at Prado Olympic Shooting park in Chino) http://ca-idpa-shooters.com/
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"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." ----Sen. Barry Goldwater Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ----Benjamin Franklin NRA life member CRPA member Last edited by OCEquestrian; 01-22-2018 at 5:51 PM.. |
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To Pala range in February. https://www.tacticalperformancecente...3-days-pala-ca And Prado range in March https://www.tacticalperformancecente...-days-prado-ca The 3 days of instruction will get you going in leaps and bounds.
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"... when a man has shot an elephant his life is full"- John Alfred Jordan "A set of ivory tusks speaks of a life well lived." - Unknown |
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It will be the best 1,700 rounds you'll spend downrange. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. If you want to get better $595 for 3 days of instruction is not much at all. Also, it will cost you more in time and money to untrain bad habits later in your shooting.
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"... when a man has shot an elephant his life is full"- John Alfred Jordan "A set of ivory tusks speaks of a life well lived." - Unknown |
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That's true. But still a good chunk of change. Decisions decisions
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This doesn't need to be hard or expensive. Commit to it and make it happen. I "thought" about doing USPSA for years before I took the plunge and regret fretting about it so much. There are people who are more than happy to help pull you along at your local club. Make sure you tell the RO you are a new shooter at each stage and request coaching. They will help you be safe and to not forget targets. |
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I've only ever shot USPSA. From what I hear, and my style, I don't think I'd like IDPA. |
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I never shot IDPA. Too many silly rules. I go for the sport of it, not because I think I am learning good defense tactics. Mind you, my shooting has improved drastically over the 4 years I have been doing this so I know I can defend myself much better than before, but that isn't why I compete.
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#26
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That match (which was weekly) has moved to Prado. It is 1,2,4,5 Saturday and 3rd Sunday of each month.
__________________
"... when a man has shot an elephant his life is full"- John Alfred Jordan "A set of ivory tusks speaks of a life well lived." - Unknown |
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As cost to value goes. If you have not had formal training you would be much better off financially investing in a course of instruction or two, rather than buying another gun which you mentioned in an earlier post. new gun 500 + 1000 round of 9mm sent down range without a grasp of the fundamentals = a thousand poor stances, grips, sight alignments, sight pictures, trigger presses, lack of follow through and probably breathing too that you have neurologically began to ingrain into your programming. That cost is immeasurable but common thought is it takes a 1000 proper repetitions to correct a bad habit. 1000 x 7 fundamental principles is 7000. know that's a lot of ammo my friend . not to mention a lot of money and time which you can not get back. 500+ for a gun, 1000 rounds poorly placed shots down range 7000 to correct it, thats roughly 300 x 8 +500= $2900. and that doesn't account for cost of range time. Buy training from someone that will teach you the fundamentals. a good class doesn't have to cost a ton. I'd say you can get good training for 150 a day and no more than 300 rounds shot. if you are taking an entry level fundamentals class and your shooting more than that I question how much time your getting with an instructor and how much info you will retain. that is one mans opinion. would you recommend your buddy go by a 500 dollar set of clubs and box of golf balls and expect him to derive any enjoyment out of playing 18 holes on Saturday with a bunch of guys who have been coached and practice on a regular bases? No! you would recommend he take 10 private lessons with a pro and then invite him to use your second set of clubs.
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"The only person you should try to be better than is the person you were yesterday." Unkown Last edited by hoodrat; 01-28-2018 at 2:30 PM.. Reason: spelling |
#29
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It is safe and good. It is run by Jojo Vidanes a world champion shooter.
__________________
"... when a man has shot an elephant his life is full"- John Alfred Jordan "A set of ivory tusks speaks of a life well lived." - Unknown |
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We would love to have you out to our Tactical Pistol programs. I recognize that your focus is competition - we'll make sure you have the tactical foundation to apply to the competition scene. The skills are obviously a direct transfer and we'll make sure you have the tools for success!
www.dag-usa.com
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DAG Operations NorCal - www.dag-usa.com Founder, ICG - www.imperatorconsultinggroup.com |
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Sorry, but the only thing you will learn at a tactically oriented class that is applicable to USPSA is how to safely draw your pistol from holster. And then within your first year you'll scrap the whole multi-step process they teach you because it is too slow and doesn't bring your support hand into position fast enough.
Seriously, just go to a competition with what ever pistol and gear you have and go SLOW. Get three competitions under your belt in this mode so you learn a bit about the game and then find a local GM that is offering training and take a class from him. You won't have any bad habits ingrained in three matches, but you will have a basic understanding of the game. That will help you not focus on silly stuff like what are the rules when you take a class from someone that is focused on doing well in a competition. They will teach you stuff like how to break down and plan a stage, how to execute a fast and reliable competition reload (aka no retention), how to transition properly from target to target (eyes first), how to move and how to rapidly pull the trigger (you aren't going to be squeezing it). Anyone telling you to take a tactical class first you should ask what is their current USPSA classification. I doubt they will be an A or higher. Full disclosure, I am at 58% which is a high C so you can ignore my advice per my advice. |
#35
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Would you give a guy a set a ski's and tell him, "watch people ski for a couple hours then take the lift up and give it a shot." Not if you liked them! If you like your friendship you would recommend he take a lesson or two before, heading up the hill. Right? He also mentioned that IDPA was of more interest. It could just be my bias but i would take formal instruction in any sport that I attempted to do if at all possible because I will get the fundamentals and shorten my learning curve making better use of my time, enjoyment and funds. if I had more time and money I'd still take coaching before trying something new given the opportunity.
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"The only person you should try to be better than is the person you were yesterday." Unkown |
#36
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Problem with doing a class first is you have no idea what you are trying to learn to do until you really experience it. I still say just go and do it and then follow up with some lessons later. If you have safety rules engrained in your brain you will do just fine. I have RO'd plenty of first time competitors and only one guy has been DQ'd and that is because he thought going really fast was the most important thing in his first match. He was foolish (executing a reload while moving uprange) and should have just focused on his safety issues. That was after a half day intro class that the club held and then they toss you into the second half of the match. |
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I would go with the mix of the advice above. Tactical class will teach some fundamentals, but also a lot of other things that are not applicable. A local GM will likely not want to teach you until you make at least "C," possibly "B." They are interested in teaching you the nuances of the movement and fast, accurate shooting, not holding your hand out of the holster. So, neither of these options is good. What would work is to go out with any shooter who is classified ("D" will do) and have them show you the ropes. You need just a bit of initial guidance, then some dry fire practice at home, to make it safely through the first match. You wouldn't be there to learn anything about the game or about the shooting, but only to learn about the range procedures and safety rules. This would likely be free, as you'd be more of a shooting buddy than a student. Only after you have figured out the system should you go for any real training where you're learning how to shoot or how to get better.
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NRA Benefactor Member |
#38
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IDPA is also game and despite what some claim it is not tactical and some rules are actually counter intuitive to what one would do in a tactical situation.
The reason I had suggested TPC's 3 day "Handgun Mastery" class was that everything that is taught in that class is applicable to both worlds as it is all about gun handling. I have seen both special forces guys, LEOs as well as high level competition shooters take that class in order to become better shooters. There is also a "Competition Mastery" but that is for high "C" and better.
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"... when a man has shot an elephant his life is full"- John Alfred Jordan "A set of ivory tusks speaks of a life well lived." - Unknown |
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#40
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I'm definitely not here to be a keyboard ninja - nor start any online wars with no real value added. And, there are some points here that draw valid discussion. IDPA & IPSC matches are designed to be challenging and to a large degree, follow generally accepted tactical fundamentals. We can digress over how many times to shoot each of 3 targets.... I think you get the point. Professional instruction and a baseline of safety, tactics & tactical shooting gives a strong foundation for a shooter to progress. In my opinion, a high stress competition mindset and ability to perform under pressure lends well to both arenas. Advanced professional instruction gives you tools you won't find without advanced professional instruction - and allows a shooter the keen insight to engage in personal refinement for maximum performance. Cheers!
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DAG Operations NorCal - www.dag-usa.com Founder, ICG - www.imperatorconsultinggroup.com |
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