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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #1  
Old 03-19-2017, 4:42 PM
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Smile New Double King Of 2586 Yards

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Calgun member Focus swept both matches today at 2586 yards shooting a 338 SnipeTac. He was pushing 0.894 BC Flatline bullets at around 3425 fps.
We had 5 shooters qualify for both of the record rounds at 2054 yards with first time Shooter and Calgun member Hoffer getting 7 out of 10 hits.
We had 4 shooters advance to 2586 yards after the first match and only two advance to the second match.
Weather was good but we did get sprinkled on twice for about 5 minutes sending everyone under Calgun member WhiteMambas canopy.
I had Calgun member Apollo's gear with me but his motorcycle died at the halfway point so he missed both matches.
Everyone shooting today got multiple hits and the lights were flashing pretty steadily until the move back to 2586 yards.
Overall I would say a good time was had by all except Apollo but his gear seemed happy.
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Old 03-19-2017, 6:20 PM
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Where are these events held? Out local 3-gun range is shutting down so a buddy and i are looking into long ramge comps
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Old 03-19-2017, 7:04 PM
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Way to go, Focus!!
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Old 03-19-2017, 7:17 PM
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The matches are about 8 miles north of Upper Lake off of hwy 20.

JoeFrank64
I got the reloading dies so thank you very much.
And Focus was the only shooter to get three hits at 2586 yards.
I wenot 0 for 10 WhiteMamba went 0 for 10 Mark went 0 for 10 and Hoffer who qualified for both 2586 yard matches had his neck get strained and didn't shoot.
Hoffer has a license plate frame that reads Bonneville 300 mile per hour club and he is one very interesting shooter.
He was shooting a straight 338 Lapua and had a 375 CheyTac in his truck.
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Old 03-19-2017, 8:36 PM
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You know, it seems to be one or the other whenever I try to shoot with you guys. Last April I was there but my rifle had been lost by the gun shop so I got to shoot Lynn's. This time my gear was there but I ended up not showing up.

I pretty much disassembled my motorcycle by the side of the road trying to get back in action but it looks like an issue with the spark plug/ignition system and I didn't have the tools with me/knowledge for that.

I never had a single issue with the bike until today. Guess that's just how things go. Can't say I'm not disappointed. I still really want to see the 3k shoot in SoCal.
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Old 03-19-2017, 9:14 PM
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It was a fun day to shoot. The wind speed was low; but, constantly switching between 10:00 and 2:00. So, you couldn't ignore it.

I got rained on during the first 2054 yard string. That caused my gun to over pressure a few rounds during the second 2054 yard string. I wiped down the rounds; so, I think my chamber got wet. There were no pressure signs once we moved to 2500 and I was firing rounds from the same batch I reloaded minutes apart from each other.

My new 32" Kreiger is ~100 FPS faster than the previous 30" Bartlein. I was using the same loads in both barrels; 3375 for the 30" and 3471 for the 32". I only expected 50 FPS from the extra 2" longer barrel. The Kreiger's bore was 0.0004" smaller in diameter. The Bartlein liked a 0.3302" bushing and the Kreiger liked a 0.3298" bushing. I'm awed that these barrel manufacturers can hold those kinds of tolerances.

Both barrels seem to produce the same accuracy. I think that means the nut behind the bolt is the limiting factor.

Cheers,

Last edited by focus; 03-19-2017 at 9:29 PM..
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Old 03-19-2017, 9:49 PM
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Thanks to all you guys for spotting and helping out.
Way more fun than I could ever have expected. A great bunch of guys!
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Old 03-19-2017, 9:55 PM
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im having eye surgery in two weeks. I am on a mission to make it out. Who do i email to get directions to the spot? As a spectator?
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Old 03-19-2017, 11:39 PM
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Damn Focus, running a 256gr solid at 3,425 with a 450G7 is fantastic.

Kudos to pushing the limits of The Possible.
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Old 03-20-2017, 6:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by save2Acali View Post
im having eye surgery in two weeks. I am on a mission to make it out. Who do i email to get directions to the spot? As a spectator?
You can email the facilitator or myself. I run the NorCal matches and he runs the SoCal matches.

Apollo
I was in the same boat early last year. I got almost to Hopland and turned around only to have my rods go through the oil pan near Cloverdale.
The cure in order was a tow truck remove old engine rent a U-Haul and install new engine. I also lost a front tire going to a SoCal match.
I have your gear so text me and I can drop it off.
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Old 03-20-2017, 6:14 AM
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Damn Focus, running a 256gr solid at 3,425 with a 450G7 is fantastic.

Kudos to pushing the limits of The Possible.

Ya that is a freight train!

That sucker would take out a Dinosaur!

Did it do damage to the gong?
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Old 03-20-2017, 6:15 AM
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Congratulations Focus!
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Old 03-20-2017, 6:23 AM
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No damage to the gong at all even with the 50BMG Shooters using 800 grain solids.
The uprights and crossbars get shot down regularly.
We tried PVC pipe as an experiment and WhiteMamba killed it with one shot. It shatters like glass.
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Old 03-20-2017, 7:11 AM
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Congrats Mitch, I'm starting to see a pattern here

I'll be chambering up a DTC barrel for Ken in a few weeks and hopefully he can give you some competition!
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Old 03-20-2017, 7:12 AM
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Damn you people with M-F jobs!!
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Old 03-20-2017, 8:18 AM
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Man I want to get to one of the socal matches... I just purchased some Cutting Edge 277g MTAC single feed bullets for my 338 Lapua. Hopefully I can get a load started, test at 1000, then come up to TRY and get a hit. I would be thrilled with a hit at 2k!
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Old 03-20-2017, 9:23 AM
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Skkeeter
Focus always comes prepared and that coupled with a brain means lots of wins. Hoffer was a first time Shooter and me thinks he is going to be tough to beat sooner than later.
WhiteMamba picked up several achievement points as did focus myself and Hoffer picked up one as well. I didn't shoot the 338 Improved because I bought the wrong firing pin assembly. I will order up another one at 3 PM when BAT takes phone orders.

BigDawg86
Almost every Shooter who has come to the line has got hits. We have a couple shooters with phenomenal spotters who can see fleas moving at 2000 yards and if they spot for you it makes things easier.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
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Most oil pans have a little plug on the bottom that you can unscrew to get the oil out...
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:45 AM
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The guy in the car behind was probably hoping there was no oil in the motor.
When the rods flew out the oil hit my catalytic converter and he had a tough time driving through all the smoke.
I shut it down and coasted to the bottom of the hill. When the tow truck driver showed up he said he could most likely fix it so I started it up for him.
He didn't say much after that.
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:02 AM
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When the tow truck driver showed up he said he could most likely fix it so I started it up for him.
He didn't say much after that.
Hahaha!
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:06 AM
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When the tow truck driver showed up he said he could most likely fix it so I started it up for him.
He didn't say much after that.
LOL.
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
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He was pushing 0.894 BC Flatline bullets at around 3425 fps.
Dayuum

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Most oil pans have a little plug on the bottom that you can unscrew to get the oil out...
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:58 PM
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Like to hear from the Spotter Team on Spotting Optic Choices. What is getting it done out there at the distance in the real world.
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Old 03-20-2017, 1:52 PM
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WhiteMamba is using a Hensoldt 45 power spotter and i don't know what Focus is using but it is very good as well.
At 2586 yards the solids from a standard 338 Lapua don't disrupt damp dirt like they do when traveling at 3400+ fps.
The bigger cartridges might not always have a ballistic edge but they definitely make it easier to spot your missed shots.
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Old 03-20-2017, 3:21 PM
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Also how is barrel life at 3400+fps?
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Old 03-20-2017, 4:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ElvenSoul View Post
Also how is barrel life at 3400+fps?
There is a reason I decided to chamber my own barrels. ;-)

Barrel life depends on your accuracy requirements. Mine are sub MOA at 2500 yards. After 700 rounds the Bartlein lost 100 fps. It still shoots one hole groups at 100 yards. But, it lost consistency at 2000 yards and got retired to fire forming duty.

I'll only need two barrels a year for the URSA matches. Don't ask what the other consumables cost...

Cheers,
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Old 03-20-2017, 7:29 PM
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Hey focus, what's your extreme spread over 10 rounds. I'm guessing around 5-7 fps?

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Old 03-20-2017, 9:54 PM
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Hey focus, what's your extreme spread over 10 rounds. I'm guessing around 5-7 fps?
Not that good. Here are my first ten record shots from Sunday. The barrel had ~50 rounds through it when I started and it's been speeding up. I expect it to settle down after ~100 shots.
IMG_0486.jpg

Cheers,
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Old 03-21-2017, 3:42 AM
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Interesting. These numbers are rounded but with a regular 338 LM shooting SMKs a 20fps difference will give you 30" of elevation at 2k.

So once you factor in the accuracy of the rifle itself it would be very possible to bracket the target by missing high and low.

Your snipetac with the same 20fps difference will have half that spread at 2k. At 2.6k it would be right around 30".


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Old 03-21-2017, 8:46 AM
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Quote:
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There is a reason I decided to chamber my own barrels. ;-)

Mine are sub MOA at 2500 yards.

Cheers,
You're constantly hitting all of your shots @ 2500 on < 25" plates?

I've shot a long time in those ranges (my largest plate 24") and it seems true sub MOA is a bit of a unicorn.

Edited to add:
I am not trying to discrete your great shooting, or your ability and not trying to be an ***, just honest.
(BTW I respond before reading Apollo's post - For those not knowing what am saying, not only ES, Optical disturbances, a target miss lazed buy a few yards, but wind-reads variances all stack up against everyone at those ranges, even if your shooting BR/F style<FWIW I don't, I self spot>)

This was written earlier then later reposted in 2014 on the Hide in regards to MV and ELR:

A bit of general info about shooting 2.2 Kilometers:
1. Good match factory ammo like FGMM has an ES of 18-25.
2. A ES of only 5fps, moves the vertical about 14" on my 338, enough to completely miss the 24" plate @ 2.2 Kilometers! That's just one of the reasons sub or even MOA shooting as range increases becomes non-probable.
3. We've shot here with a normal cross wind that moves the bullet approx. 45' sideways from the target.
4. It is not uncommon to see 6-8mils of wind in the 2K range.
5. TOF to see the impact signature over 4.5 seconds
6. If we could hear the return ping you would expect the ping approx. 11 seconds after the trigger brake.
7. This bears repeating, on that size target, with an ES of only 9fps (not realistic), moves the vertical about 24" And only 13" is enough to miss the 24" plate. The hit percentage is too low on a MOA target 24"x24" plate for any really useful purposes (plates are often less than a MOA, as they can be set at an angle resulting in maybe 20" of width)
8. We generally can not see the target without a scope.
9. Mirage makes seeing what would appear to be a 1" dot at 100yards, extremely hard to resolve and look larger than it is, even with a $3k scope or spotting scope. If you can shoot form something elevated or across valleys (peak to peak) it is much easier to see.
10. Attached is a sample below of the predictive model, I ran using only a 9FPS plus the same variables from my log book as experienced Saturday. While this is not real world, it is a good example on how the difficulty becomes non-linear. 2.2 Kilometer later ran thru the hit probability model from AB ~ BTW RUN WITH ONLY A 3MPH WIND VAR
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File Type: jpg 15830917693_832176d31c_z.jpg (94.4 KB, 27 views)

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Old 03-21-2017, 9:35 AM
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There's one thing that I've noticed that I feel isn't mentioned in the article.

ES is just that, an extreme spread. When I'm shooting my 308 I might have a high of 2700fps and a low of 2695 but That's​ just two out of ten shots. In a ten shot string I've often gotten the same velocity repeated within the string. So I might get 2703 four times, 2702 twice and 2704 twice. That means for most shots your vertical spread is within a smaller range than your extreme spread would dictate.

You aren't bouncing back from high to low with every shot, at least I'd hope not. You're usually somewhere in the middle. At least in my limited experience.

And even if your shots cluster towards the high end of the ES that's ok too. Just aim accordingly.

So a 30" vertical spread based off your ES will cost you hits. But it won't make things impossible.





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Old 03-21-2017, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apollo View Post
There's one thing that I've noticed that I feel isn't mentioned in the article.

ES is just that, an extreme spread. When I'm shooting my 308 I might have a high of 2700fps and a low of 2695 but That's​ just two out of ten shots. In a ten shot string I've often gotten the same velocity repeated within the string. So I might get 2703 four times, 2702 twice and 2704 twice. That means for most shots your vertical spread is within a smaller range than your extreme spread would dictate.

You aren't bouncing back from high to low with every shot, at least I'd hope not. You're usually somewhere in the middle. At least in my limited experience.

And even if your shots cluster towards the high end of the ES that's ok too. Just aim accordingly.

So a 30" vertical spread based off your ES will cost you hits. But it won't make things impossible.





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I have to point out that ES, although it is a good indicator of how consistent your ammo is, may not necessarily impact your vertical spread as the ballistic charts make it out to.

Try it...go to 1K yards on a GOOD DAY, bring your Labradar and shoot a bunch of rounds. My guess is that rounds with low/high ES readings will still impact within the range of the acceptable vertical spread. I don't know how many times I tried this and could not consistently get rounds with lower ES to hit lower or vice versa.

Likewise, we tried this with rounds with high runout on the loaded rounds and could not get these to consistently shoot out of the acceptable group as well.

Furthermore, we tried rounds that chambered harder or easier and shot them in a group and again, we could not get ones that chambered differently to consistently fall out of the group.

I have to wonder how much of the vertical or horizontal spread for that matter is attributed to the shooter. I bet a lot of it is. This includes optical shifts, which essentially is the conditions shifting what we perceive optically in our scopes and thus, we are actually not pointed at the same spot on the target from shot to shot
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:23 AM
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The thing is you have so many factors either interfering with each other or combining to exaggerate an effect.

Case and point, the round may be going faster than the last one but the shooter isn't 100% consistent so they can cancel out. Round was going to hit high, shooter accidentally shoots low.

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Old 03-21-2017, 10:24 AM
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diver160651 View Post
You're constantly hitting all of your shots @ 2500 on < 25" plates?

I've shot a long time in those ranges (my largest plate 24") and it seems true sub MOA is a bit of a unicorn.
No worries Diver. My ego has been beaten into a tiny pulp by this game. Some times I feel like I am chasing unicorns.

I was talking about my expectation that the barrel is ideally capable of sub MOA. I'm aware that the environmentals and shooter are added to that. Personally I need to believe the barrel and ammo are consistent. When the shot breaks I capture a mental image. When I spot the impact I compare it to my mental image and assess the results. So, after a few disjointed assessments; it becomes obvious when the barrel stops doing its part.

Cheers,
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Apollo View Post
There's one thing that I've noticed that I feel isn't mentioned in the article.

ES is just that, an extreme spread. When I'm shooting my 308 I might have a high of 2700fps and a low of 2695 but That's​ just two out of ten shots. In a ten shot string I've often gotten the same velocity repeated within the string. So I might get 2703 four times, 2702 twice and 2704 twice. That means for most shots your vertical spread is within a smaller range than your extreme spread would dictate.

You aren't bouncing back from high to low with every shot, at least I'd hope not. You're usually somewhere in the middle. At least in my limited experience.

And even if your shots cluster towards the high end of the ES that's ok too. Just aim accordingly.

So a 30" vertical spread based off your ES will cost you hits. But it won't make things impossible

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It was not an article.. just something I wrote answering questions I was getting on what we were seeing.

Sorry if that was the take away. The model is only just that. The CEP for at those distances is just larger than 1 MOA. I didn't say, or try to say that getting a lot of hits is impossible or even having a good percentage of hits, but I have yet to see anyone shoot subMOA* as a matter of habit. I have video or images of groups of shots hitting impossibly close, but that can be as much luck as anything else.

So yes, you can use the SD// but sense we shot relatively few rounds on target with rounds that have everything hand sorted, annealed, neck turned, kernel accurate etc. the SD and ES lines up closely. We count ALL rounds fired we referring to our hit probability. In this way, with hand loads using ES makes much more sense.

* Defined by walking up dropping the system lazing getting their wind read and having ALL rounds on a MOA target in the mid 2K ranges..

Last edited by diver160651; 03-21-2017 at 10:58 AM..
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Old 03-21-2017, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by focus View Post
No worries Diver. My ego has been beaten into a tiny pulp by this game. Some times I feel like I am chasing unicorns.

I was talking about my expectation that the barrel is ideally capable of sub MOA. I'm aware that the environmentals and shooter are added to that. Personally I need to believe the barrel and ammo are consistent. When the shot breaks I capture a mental image. When I spot the impact I compare it to my mental image and assess the results. So, after a few disjointed assessments; it becomes obvious when the barrel stops doing its part.

Cheers,
Makes sense.. I have a "room temperature IQ" so I misinterpret and Miscommunicate far too often.

You guys that have been doing this obviously "get it". Somedays when the shooter brake is bad, seems like the wind will somehow blow most of the shots in, yet on others a gremlin can jump in and destroy a near mirage-less windless day..still not sure what thats about

BTW the 256 with it super short bearing surface seems SUPER sensitive to neck tension. Sounds like your already using an Arbor, to sort seating resistance. I didn't jam mine, but found the best luck using the force gauge and watching the way the dial indicator moves rather than the max force to sort. Seems I get much better ES with the Flatlines that way.

FWIW I am @ 3000 for a 1 hole 100y group and low ES; 3150 max they stared to shift POI - Nothing like your's over 400fps faster

Last edited by diver160651; 03-21-2017 at 11:15 AM..
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Old 03-21-2017, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by diver160651 View Post
It was not an article.. just something I wrote answering questions I was getting on what we were seeing.

Sorry if that was the take away. The model is only just that. The CEP for at those distances is just larger than 1 MOA. I didn't say, or try to say that getting a lot of hits is impossible or even having a good percentage of hits, but I have yet to see anyone shoot subMOA* as a matter of habit. I have video or images of groups of shots hitting impossibly close, but that can be as much luck as anything else.

So yes, you can use the SD// but sense we shot relatively few rounds on target with rounds that have everything hand sorted, annealed, neck turned, kernel accurate etc. the SD and ES lines up closely. We count ALL rounds fired we referring to our hit probability. In this way, with hand loads using ES makes much more sense.

* Defined by walking up dropping the system lazing getting their wind read and having ALL rounds on a MOA target in the mid 2K ranges..
I completely agree, shooting sub-moa at 2k or more is just not going to happen. If it was we would have shooters scoring 10/10 at every match because the gong is 1.8 moa. I'm merely commenting on ES as a factor.

The way I see it you have to work backwards from your goal. If you want to have a decent chance of hitting a 36" gong at say 2600 with a 338 LM you would have to get your spread down to 10fps and your wind call within .75 mph.

With that 338 snipetac a 10 fps variance shrinks the vertical spread by half and you can get away with a wind call within 1.2 mph.

So to be competitive, just considering those two factors and nothing else I'd have to keep my ES half of whatever his is. But he'd still kick my tail because of wind.

This doesn't factor in transitional stability, the shooter, optics, or the accuracy of the rifle itself. But it does allow you to create an interesting framework for longer range shots.





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Old 03-21-2017, 1:51 PM
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Originally Posted by bsumoba View Post
I have to point out that ES, although it is a good indicator of how consistent your ammo is, may not necessarily impact your vertical spread as the ballistic charts make it out to.

Try it...go to 1K yards on a GOOD DAY, bring your Labradar and shoot a bunch of rounds. My guess is that rounds with low/high ES readings will still impact within the range of the acceptable vertical spread.
Agreed, that there is a lot of shooter and environmental introduced noise. We've shoot over optical, acoustic and recently (once the pre-orders shipped) the labradar while shooting ELR. I believe enough to conclude that slower rounds near 1.2 or past do on average hit lower as a trued dope curves suggests. Just as important is using a mil grade laser to know the true distances (way harder than it seems) when we create our tuned dope curves.

Interesting that you also mention optical disturbances, I don't see enough people understanding this. There are still some that think mirage "lifts" the bullet with rising heat waves, rather than the POA being off.

Not responding to you, but agreeing and adding to it, trying to clarify what I mean to others that may think I am nuts While shooting from, to, or across peaks, mirage is greatly mitigated, we have spent a lot of time on the desert floor were mirage can create a bit of a struggle. With mirage past 2k, a 2' target can actually look larger than it is. Because it is relatively small you sometimes can NOT pick up it's true home position (larger targets you can generally see the target "bounce back" into the wind read).

For fun next time, if someone reading this is interested, mil range (with a calibrated scope) a 2' target out past 2400.. (24x27.78)/your mil read $ to donuts you'll get a number much closer than your actual range, because the target actual looks a bit larger. Do the same on a 68" man and your distance will be closer, do this on that same man at only 800-1000 yards are you'll most likely impress yourself with how close you can get.

Last edited by diver160651; 03-21-2017 at 3:02 PM..
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Old 03-21-2017, 2:57 PM
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Focus,

What spotting scope are you using??
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