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Rimfire Firearms .22, .17 and other Rimfire Handguns and Rifles

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  #1  
Old 03-20-2017, 2:36 PM
rauldelga rauldelga is offline
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Default Marlin 795 slam firing accidental discharges

Marlin seems to be acting up, i've had 6 slam fires. Gun is new since black friday.

1 - two months ago
1 - one month ago
4 - last weekend

They all seem to occur after a stovepipe where a new round is in the chamber but the casing of the old round is sandwiched. Removing the mag and dropping the bolt made it fire.

I've also managed to get it to fire by dropping a bullet in the chamber by hand and dropping the bolt.

I haven't had time to further investigate and repeat the issue but im curious if anyone has had first hand experience with rimfire rifles slam firing because of the extractor?

I'm going to try to repeat the incident and retrieve the casings to see where they are getting set off.

Should be noted that i have issues with failure to locking the bolt back on last round. I've notice it happens after a few hundred rounds when its gets dirty. As in, the start of day it would work fine but later after several mags they would stop holding open. Seems like the bullets aren't pushing the bolt back far enough to engage the lock because it locks if i use an empty mag and rack by hand no problem.

And yes i will send to Marlin after I can repeat the issue.


UPDATE 20170418

Hey Folks,

So Marlin was able to replicate the issue and said they are not supposed to do that under any circumstance. They are replacing the firearm and are reimbursing me for shipping, transfer and DROS fees. Over the phone they said that the issue was due to a crack and bent receiver. See posts below for photos of the bend, i don't know where the crack is. Posting this info for potential future owners that may run into the same issue. I would advise to inspect the gun before completing the DROS and ensuring the bend is not there. Myne was there but was "assured" that it would be a non issue by the dealer before i bought it...it was also on black friday so quantity was limited. Lesson learned!

Photos of bend:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Firearms/co...dented_photos/

https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/commen...otos_attached/

Posts of slamfires:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1316036

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...d.php?t=889746

Thank you all for your help!

UPDATE 20170604

I forgot to mention, i got the gun a couple of weeks ago. Can't remember the exact date unfortunately. BUT i did get my refund check today. They refunded me the total cost of shipping, transfer and DROS via check in the mail. Communication with Remington was very good. I couldn't be happier. The marlin was ready for pickup either on the 11th or 18th of May, can't recall.

Last edited by rauldelga; 06-04-2017 at 10:48 AM..
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Old 03-20-2017, 3:03 PM
P5Ret P5Ret is offline
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I'm going to venture a guess that since the extractor is hitting the primer when there is a live round in the chamber of a rim fire there is a pretty good chance it will go bang. During a normal loading process the case rim slides under the extractor, what you are doing is forcing the extractor over the case rim, causing the round to fire.
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Old 03-20-2017, 4:07 PM
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I can see having a second slam fire. I can't see having six.
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Old 03-20-2017, 4:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P5Ret View Post
I'm going to venture a guess that since the extractor is hitting the primer when there is a live round in the chamber of a rim fire there is a pretty good chance it will go bang. During a normal loading process the case rim slides under the extractor, what you are doing is forcing the extractor over the case rim, causing the round to fire.
^^^ This based on the OP description.

OP, generally, shouldn't be chambering rounds the way you described. Clear the jam, load from mag.
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Originally Posted by TKM View Post
I can see having a second slam fire. I can't see having six.
Could be an in spec but tight headspace combined with just right extractor = BOOM!
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Old 03-20-2017, 5:42 PM
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What have you modified?

Is the firing pin moving freely? Or is there something jamming it in a forward position?
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Old 03-20-2017, 6:09 PM
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When was it cleaned last?
I'd bet it's a stuck firing pin.

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Old 03-20-2017, 6:48 PM
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As already stated above:
Do not drop the bolt on a chambered round in a rimfire.
There is (presumably) nothing wrong with your gun.

On a rimfire, the entire rear end of the cartridge is the primer. When you drop the bolt, it, or the extractor, hit the rear of the case/ primer and ingite it.

In other words: You're doing it wrong.

Last edited by mnichols; 03-20-2017 at 6:50 PM..
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Old 03-20-2017, 7:12 PM
rauldelga rauldelga is offline
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It does have a MCarbo spring kit installed. Firearm functions fine minus the accidental discharges (LOL i know right). Granted, one would think it wouldn't be so easy to have a round fired by dropping the bolt.

Another question is cleaning frequency. I once decided to not clean it in 3 range trips (around 3k rounds) and only remember it malfunctioning once. However the day where i had 4 was after a fresh cleaning with Hornady's OneShot and 1.5k rounds or so.

Firing pin moves freely as far as i can tell and using drywall anchors as snap caps i could not replicate the results. I essentially loaded a round, removed the mag, continuously dropped the bolt and noticed no markings on the snap cap. I repeated the same process but with the hammer down (it slammed forward a lot harder) and also notice no markings of a firing pin strike or extractor.

I'm going to go with another commentor and reckon that tight headspace and a cocky extractor may cause these issues but i'd really like to recover one of the casings just to be sure. It's fun to learn new things and i'd like to get to the bottom before sending it off to get serviced.

Regarding "You're doing it wrong". Yeah, there's correct ways of loading a gun. But regardless of how you load it, the gun shouldn't slamfire.period.



Going to try and keep the thread updated next time i go out and focus more on causing the slamfire. I figure someone out there will enjoy the information. Many Thanks!

Friendly reminder, dropping the bolt should be done after aiming. My rifle did a service and ingrained that into the new shooters last trip out haha. Was an excellent example to always point in a safe direction.

Last edited by rauldelga; 03-20-2017 at 7:15 PM..
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Old 03-20-2017, 8:06 PM
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Simple. You are going to die.
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Old 03-21-2017, 7:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rauldelga View Post
It does have a MCarbo spring kit installed. Firearm functions fine minus the accidental discharges (LOL i know right). Granted, one would think it wouldn't be so easy to have a round fired by dropping the bolt.

Another question is cleaning frequency. I once decided to not clean it in 3 range trips (around 3k rounds) and only remember it malfunctioning once. However the day where i had 4 was after a fresh cleaning with Hornady's OneShot and 1.5k rounds or so.

Firing pin moves freely as far as i can tell and using drywall anchors as snap caps i could not replicate the results. I essentially loaded a round, removed the mag, continuously dropped the bolt and noticed no markings on the snap cap. I repeated the same process but with the hammer down (it slammed forward a lot harder) and also notice no markings of a firing pin strike or extractor.

I'm going to go with another commentor and reckon that tight headspace and a cocky extractor may cause these issues but i'd really like to recover one of the casings just to be sure. It's fun to learn new things and i'd like to get to the bottom before sending it off to get serviced.

Regarding "You're doing it wrong". Yeah, there's correct ways of loading a gun. But regardless of how you load it, the gun shouldn't slamfire.period.



Going to try and keep the thread updated next time i go out and focus more on causing the slamfire. I figure someone out there will enjoy the information. Many Thanks!

Friendly reminder, dropping the bolt should be done after aiming. My rifle did a service and ingrained that into the new shooters last trip out haha. Was an excellent example to always point in a safe direction.
I'm shocked you can't replicate a rimfire round discharging using a nylon drywall anchor as a snap cap. Read the manual that came with the rifle, I'll bet that it says in there not to do what you are doing it can cause an unintentional discharge. If you want to accurately replicate the mistake, buy a rimfire reloading kit, and try it with a EMPTY primed case. That will show more accurately what is happening.
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Old 03-21-2017, 2:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P5Ret View Post
I'm shocked you can't replicate a rimfire round discharging using a nylon drywall anchor as a snap cap. Read the manual that came with the rifle, I'll bet that it says in there not to do what you are doing it can cause an unintentional discharge. If you want to accurately replicate the mistake, buy a rimfire reloading kit, and try it with a EMPTY primed case. That will show more accurately what is happening.
Yup, says specifically that it should only be loaded from the magazine. I am kind of surprised Marlin didn't specify that single loading could cause a discharge.
http://stevespages.com/pdf/marlin_se...eed_manual.pdf
Quote:
•WARNING: Your self-loading rifle is not
designed to be single-loaded and IT
WILL NOT FIRE unless the magazine is
locked in place. Always load cartridges
through the magazine as directed. Never
use the magazine disconnector as the
primary safety or as an excuse for
unsafe firearm handling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rauldelga View Post
It does have a MCarbo spring kit installed. Firearm functions fine minus the accidental discharges (LOL i know right). Granted, one would think it wouldn't be so easy to have a round fired by dropping the bolt.
.

So, you modified the gun with a spring kit? Was this directly before you started having problems? It is possible it is short stroking and not picking up rounds properly, and slam firing from the extractor hitting the rim. Put the stock recoil spring in and see if it still does it.

Since it is modified, Marlin might not provide a free fix under warranty. But, if it still does this after a detail strip and complete cleaning, and factory springs restored, then I would say send it to Marlin.
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Old 03-21-2017, 2:31 PM
rauldelga rauldelga is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LowThudd View Post
•WARNING: Your self-loading rifle is not
designed to be single-loaded and IT
WILL NOT FIRE unless the magazine is
locked in place. .
That cracks me up. Every slamfire has been without a magazine. I'll pull the bullet out of a 22lr and load the casing to see if i can slam fire it. Regarding the spring kit, it still has the stock recoil spring. The parts swapped are the hammer, sear, disconnect and trigger return springs. The only problem child imo would be the sear spring is not doing its job thus dropped the hammer. Just had an idea, i'll contact MCarbo and see if they have seen this occur after kit installations. Guess i have some homework to do.

Last edited by rauldelga; 03-21-2017 at 2:40 PM..
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Old 03-21-2017, 6:39 PM
rauldelga rauldelga is offline
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Small update.

I used unfired casings and did several tests.

1. The first were manual loading without magazine and fired on the first try. These casings are shown in the image and the pinch covers around 90-100 degrees of the circumference. I did this three times.
2. The second were manual loading with magazine and fired on the first try. Meaning i inserted an empty mag after chambering a round. These casings had the same results as above and same coverage
3. The third test occured after i took the bolt out to observe. I inserted it in to see if i could replicate the results and could not get a slam fire. I did notice small scuffing on the rim. I would say 1-2 degrees of coverage, very minor but obvious rubbing.
4. The fourth test i tried to repeat the issue by taping a shim on top of the bolt. I could not replicate the results but it was obvious that the rim was getting pinched, approximately 60-70 degrees of the circumference. It is very likely to have slam fired had i used a thicker shim. However, i could not get a casing to fire with this method.
5. The fifth test i removed the shim and attempted to slam fire again. Repeating test three i got the same results, minor scuff but no pinch.

With that said, i don't know if it was because something was pushing the bolt down, something in the barrel was pushing the rim back (not letting it go forward). I'd get it was just dirt on top of the bolt or perhaps the firing mechanism was not seating properly and letting the bolt sag downwards...So many questions.

unnamed.jpg

Last edited by rauldelga; 03-21-2017 at 7:19 PM..
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Old 03-21-2017, 6:59 PM
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Have you pulled the bolt out and inspected the bolt face?
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Old 03-22-2017, 2:30 PM
rauldelga rauldelga is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LowThudd View Post
Have you pulled the bolt out and inspected the bolt face?
YUP. in my third test i took the bolt out to see if i could find anything wrong. Nothing unusual. When i put the bolt back in, everything seemed to function just fine. I figure whatever was pushing the bolt downward must have fallen out with the bolt.



update. gave the gun a very thorough cleaning. While putting it back together i notice the trigger guard is cracked at the tearout for both fasteners as well as the "tail" of the guard where the aft fastener hole is. Regardless, i tested it again and the problem persists. Running out of options. Going to try rimfirecentral.

Last edited by rauldelga; 03-22-2017 at 7:19 PM..
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Old 03-22-2017, 7:49 PM
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Has it ever done this when loading properly through the mag? I can see no advantage to single loading a round in the chamber, in fact it's down right dangerous as you have proven. You should be completely clearing the gun if you get a stovepipe stoppage.
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Old 03-22-2017, 8:42 PM
rauldelga rauldelga is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P5Ret View Post
Has it ever done this when loading properly through the mag? I can see no advantage to single loading a round in the chamber, in fact it's down right dangerous as you have proven. You should be completely clearing the gun if you get a stovepipe stoppage.
I haven't been tracking but i believe all slam fires occur with the bullet in the chamber. I did the test again with the round fed from a magazine and could not get it to slam fire.

Regardless, the point is the gun shouldn't slamfire at all no matter how its loaded. Slam firing is a malfunction and "dont load it that way" doesnt fix the malfunction

Last edited by rauldelga; 03-22-2017 at 8:57 PM..
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Old 03-22-2017, 9:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rauldelga View Post
YUP. in my third test i took the bolt out to see if i could find anything wrong. Nothing unusual. When i put the bolt back in, everything seemed to function just fine. I figure whatever was pushing the bolt downward must have fallen out with the bolt.



update. gave the gun a very thorough cleaning. While putting it back together i notice the trigger guard is cracked at the tearout for both fasteners as well as the "tail" of the guard where the aft fastener hole is. Regardless, i tested it again and the problem persists. Running out of options. Going to try rimfirecentral.
Could be that you are over tightening the takedown bolts since you cracked the plastic. Seems to be a common problem if you search around and from what I've read you can cause malfunctions from over tightening. Maybe try your "slamfire test" without the bolts in or really loose (without live ammo of course).

Malfunctions during improper use are malfunctions, but rather should be classified as ND.

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Old 03-22-2017, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rauldelga View Post
I haven't been tracking but i believe all slam fires occur with the bullet in the chamber. I did the test again with the round fed from a magazine and could not get it to slam fire.

Regardless, the point is the gun shouldn't slamfire at all no matter how its loaded. Slam firing is a malfunction and "dont load it that way" doesnt fix the malfunction
It's a known issue with rimfire ammo, not a malfunction of the weapon.
It's not a malfunction if the manual specifically says don't load it that way, it's operator error. So yeah in this instance don't load that way is the fix, if it is only happening when you load it that way.

So far all you have done is confirm that a single round loaded into the chamber of a rimfire semiauto can discharge unintentionally when the bolt is released and closed on that round.
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Old 03-23-2017, 7:17 AM
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It should be able to be fired without the magazine in it. There is a plate on the right side of the trigger assembly that is suppose to prevent firing without out the magazine inserted. I'd check to make sure it isn't bent outward.

Suggest you contact Marlin (Remington) to see about returning the rifle for service.
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Old 03-23-2017, 8:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmasuda View Post
Could be that you are over tightening the takedown bolts since you cracked the plastic. Seems to be a common problem if you search around and from what I've read you can cause malfunctions from over tightening. Maybe try your "slamfire test" without the bolts in or really loose (without live ammo of course).
Going to give that a shot when i go home. I'll basically do the tests while over tightened on the stock and another test with no stock at all (all previous tests had the stock installed). This could potentially be an excuse to buy a DIP Trigger Guard.

Did the test (with/without stock). With the stock and loosened screws, it slamfires. With the stock and tightened screwed, it slamfires. Without the stock, no slam fire.

Small update. I shipped it to Marlin and am waiting to see what they say.

Last edited by rauldelga; 03-28-2017 at 8:05 AM..
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Old 04-18-2017, 7:56 AM
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updated the OP for latest news.
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Old 04-18-2017, 9:50 PM
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Thanks for following up rauldelga.
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