Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > SPECIALTY FORUMS > Discussions of Faith
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-09-2018, 3:43 AM
kteas1 kteas1 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 73
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default Is a Christian nation, the only way to be a free nation?

I've come to the point, I honestly believe Christianity and freedom go hand in hand. Will a day come when lack of morality will kill freedom? Should an immoral society become a controlled society? Has the shift already started in this nation?

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-09-2018, 4:09 AM
Kokopelli's Avatar
Kokopelli Kokopelli is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: "the drop edge of yonder"
Posts: 2,337
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

The only thing that stands between freedom and a nation overrun is God.

"Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people he chose for his inheritance." Psalm 33:12

"The LORD gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their ancestors. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the LORD gave all their enemies into their hands." Joshua 21:44

Quote:
Originally Posted by kteas1 View Post
Will a day come when lack of morality will kill freedom? Should an immoral society become a controlled society? Has the shift already started in this nation?
2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 tells us of the "restrainer" who prevents an evil one from ruling the entire world - The Antichrist. One day, The Restrainer will be removed and all hell will break loose.
__________________
“If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on earth.” - Ronald Reagan

"God is not on the side of the big battalions, but on the side of those who shoot best." - Voltaire
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-09-2018, 6:05 AM
RAMCLAP's Avatar
RAMCLAP RAMCLAP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Orange, CA
Posts: 2,051
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Yes. Moral people require few laws. The unregenerate always need to be regulated and thus at a certain point freedom is gone.
__________________
John 2:5
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-09-2018, 6:52 AM
RandyD's Avatar
RandyD RandyD is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: La Jolla, California
Posts: 5,450
iTrader: 42 / 100%
Default

@kteas1, I think about this same issue on a frequent basis. There is freedom from being physically enslaved, and there is also freedom from being spiritually enslaved. Everyone is born with a sinful spirit. Unless you fill your spirit with the Holy Spirit which is knowledge from the Bible, it will not become good, and our culture is filling the people's spirits with secular teachings that are opposite of God's will and teaching. Matthew 12:30 "He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad." Galatians 6:8; "Those who live only to satisfy their own sinful nature will harvest decay and death from that sinful nature. But those who live to please the Spirit will harvest everlasting life from the Spirit."

God's plan is to have us connected with him through the Holy Spirit, which results in an orderly society. Our culture by default rejects Christianity, and it only knows laws and punishment, which only has a marginal affect on human behavior. I think we are fast approaching the tipping point where lawlessness will prevail, and society will eliminate freedom as we know it.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-09-2018, 9:05 AM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 402
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

The last thing we need in America is a theocracy. The idea of a Christian nation is about as appealing as an Islamist state or, for that matter, liberal utopias. Same principles, different creeds. No thank you! I'll take America the way it is any day of the week over some extremist's version of how it "should" be.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-09-2018, 9:29 AM
RAMCLAP's Avatar
RAMCLAP RAMCLAP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Orange, CA
Posts: 2,051
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

No one said anything about a theocracy. Just a nation full of Christians.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-09-2018, 9:40 AM
Kokopelli's Avatar
Kokopelli Kokopelli is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: "the drop edge of yonder"
Posts: 2,337
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
The last thing we need in America is a theocracy. The idea of a Christian nation is about as appealing as an Islamist state or, for that matter, liberal utopias. Same principles, different creeds. No thank you! I'll take America the way it is any day of the week over some extremist's version of how it "should" be.
Did I miss a call to theocracy mentioned in this thread? Same principals, different creeds? Christianity is not like Liberal Utopian-ism or an Islamic State. So, I don't know why you would think that. Yes, our nation is indeed founded upon Christianity.

For your consideration: BLESSED IS THE NATION WHOSE GOD IS THE LORD
__________________
“If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on earth.” - Ronald Reagan

"God is not on the side of the big battalions, but on the side of those who shoot best." - Voltaire
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-09-2018, 9:58 AM
sbo80's Avatar
sbo80 sbo80 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: San Diego
Posts: 500
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Default

"modern" Christians perhaps, to a point. People who follow religious rules might be able to police themselves, act civilly, and not really have a need for government to keep them acting right. But that can get twisted too, and probably not just a Christian thing. Remember Christians used to burn people at the stake, and whip their slaves, etc. As an institution, religion is still full of rules/norms created by man, which is where the problems come from. See modern middle-east Islam as an example. Either way, you are trading one rule set, religion, for another rule set, government. There's still rules, otherwise it is true anarchy, and we'd just be animals again. There's no society without rules from somewhere. Heck, even chimps have rules.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-09-2018, 2:15 PM
Alan Block Alan Block is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,842
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

When the OP mentioned Christian Nation, I took that to mean theocracy too. No thanks, I prefer freedom unencumbered by religious dogma.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-09-2018, 3:48 PM
RAMCLAP's Avatar
RAMCLAP RAMCLAP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Orange, CA
Posts: 2,051
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

I'll take Christian dogma over statist dogma all week and 5 times on Sunday.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-10-2018, 3:36 AM
78marz 78marz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 486
iTrader: 35 / 100%
Default

Nope
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-11-2018, 3:06 PM
billvau's Avatar
billvau billvau is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Norcal mountains
Posts: 544
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kteas1 View Post
I've come to the point, I honestly believe Christianity and freedom go hand in hand. Will a day come when lack of morality will kill freedom? Should an immoral society become a controlled society? Has the shift already started in this nation?

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk
Since there are free nations and no Christian nations, then the answer is that you can have a free nation without Christianity.
__________________
Pastor Bill

“Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God…” Martin Luther
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-11-2018, 5:37 PM
Ben R Ben R is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 27
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

The ideal, IMO, would be a judeo-christian nation with a non-secular govt.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-12-2018, 11:22 AM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 402
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

It seems that some folks have forgotten why all those Protestants came running over to America in the first place.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-12-2018, 11:53 AM
RAMCLAP's Avatar
RAMCLAP RAMCLAP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Orange, CA
Posts: 2,051
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
It seems that some folks have forgotten why all those Protestants came running over to America in the first place.
And what were those reasons?
__________________
John 2:5
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-12-2018, 12:02 PM
wpage's Avatar
wpage wpage is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,308
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

God bless America again
__________________
God so loved the world He gave His only Son... Believe in Him and have everlasting life.
John 3:16

United Air Epic Fail Video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u99Q7pNAjvg
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-12-2018, 12:48 PM
sonofeugene's Avatar
sonofeugene sonofeugene is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,880
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RAMCLAP View Post
Yes. Moral people require few laws.
So true. But one doesn't need one religion or the other to be moral and good.
__________________
Let us not pray to be sheltered from dangers but to be fearless when facing them. - Rabindranath Tagore

A mind all logic is like a knife all blade. It makes the hand bleed that uses it. - Rabindranath Tagore
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-12-2018, 12:58 PM
hunterb's Avatar
hunterb hunterb is online now
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: SGV
Posts: 2,891
iTrader: 70 / 100%
Default

There are some backwards, uneducated, dangerous "Christians" out there who pervert Christ's message into one of hate and intolerance.
Luckily they are on the fringes in most places. Just because they label themselves "Christian," doesn't mean they are actually anything that even remotely resembles an actual, true Christian.

Also, what about Mormons? They are, as a group, the most consistently moral by my observation. Sikhs? They are super peaceful, moral people. Sure, they get carried away with their swords sometimes... I even know MANY, MANY very moral, upstanding and righteous Atheists.

Religion influences culture, and culture is what really matters IMO.

Food for thought.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnthomas View Post
...The hardest part getting rid of crap is getting started.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-12-2018, 3:20 PM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 402
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hunterb View Post
There are some backwards, uneducated, dangerous "Christians" out there who pervert Christ's message into one of hate and intolerance.
Luckily they are on the fringes in most places. Just because they label themselves "Christian," doesn't mean they are actually anything that even remotely resembles an actual, true Christian.

Also, what about Mormons? They are, as a group, the most consistently moral by my observation. Sikhs? They are super peaceful, moral people. Sure, they get carried away with their swords sometimes... I even know MANY, MANY very moral, upstanding and righteous Atheists.

Religion influences culture, and culture is what really matters IMO.

Food for thought.
Mostly agreed. But only because most people aren't fanatics of anything. But the more power you give one group, the more power you give their fanatics, too.

Religion influences culture but culture also influences religion. Christianity, as an example, isn't the same all over the world. It's different depending on the country and culture it's in. Same with Judaism, Islam, animists, etc. Looking at Judaism, it was heavily influenced by the Canaanites & their religion. Even the Solomonic temple was modeled after Canaanite temples -- right down to the holy of holies. No surprise since it was built by Canaanites in the first place (those ones that, according to the Torah, were supposed to have been killed off by sanctioned genocide).

Genesis says that Adam was made in the image of God. I'd say that we've mostly made God into our own image. And it's interesting to see just how people's ideas of God, the gods & the divine reflect the people more than some abstract idea from heaven. All the more reason to never trust religious institutions with political affairs, in my opinion. There's enough BS in politics without adding everybody's religious convictions into the mess.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-12-2018, 3:22 PM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 402
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RAMCLAP View Post
And what were those reasons?
Escaping religious persecution. Homogeneous cultures tend to promote a lot of intolerance. Works okay on a tribal level. Causes a lot of problems as things scale up.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 03-12-2018, 3:27 PM
Mayor McRifle's Avatar
Mayor McRifle Mayor McRifle is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Central Valley
Posts: 5,829
iTrader: 13 / 100%
Default Is a Christian nation, the only way to be a free nation?

No.
__________________
Anchors Aweigh

Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 03-12-2018, 5:44 PM
glocksigtastic's Avatar
glocksigtastic glocksigtastic is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Western Inland Empire
Posts: 85
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Negative. Most historically significant wars were fought over religious ideas (sometimes even within the same religion).
__________________
What say you?
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-13-2018, 6:10 AM
RAMCLAP's Avatar
RAMCLAP RAMCLAP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Orange, CA
Posts: 2,051
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Please don't say the Pilgrims came here because of religious persecution.
__________________
John 2:5
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 03-13-2018, 6:11 AM
RAMCLAP's Avatar
RAMCLAP RAMCLAP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Orange, CA
Posts: 2,051
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by glocksigtastic View Post
Negative. Most historically significant wars were fought over religious ideas (sometimes even within the same religion).
The worst were fought over atheism.
__________________
John 2:5
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 03-13-2018, 6:26 AM
Kokopelli's Avatar
Kokopelli Kokopelli is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: "the drop edge of yonder"
Posts: 2,337
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

The Mayflower Compact

Quote:
In the name of God, Amen. We whose names are under-written, the loyal subjects of our dread sovereign Lord, King James, by the grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland King, Defender of the Faith, etc.

Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together into a civil body politic, for our better ordering and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the Colony, unto which we promise all due submission and obedience. In witness whereof we have hereunder subscribed our names at Cape Cod, the eleventh of November, in the year of the reign of our sovereign lord, King James, of England, France, and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth. Anno Dom. 1620.
__________________
“If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on earth.” - Ronald Reagan

"God is not on the side of the big battalions, but on the side of those who shoot best." - Voltaire
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 03-13-2018, 6:40 AM
theLBC's Avatar
theLBC theLBC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 669
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonofeugene View Post
So true. But one doesn't need one religion or the other to be moral and good.
and you based that on what? all the peaceful societies that exist without religion?

religious devotion in america is dying, and unsurprisingly, so is morality.

/i'm not religious

Last edited by theLBC; 03-13-2018 at 6:43 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 03-13-2018, 8:51 AM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 402
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by theLBC View Post
and you based that on what? all the peaceful societies that exist without religion?

religious devotion in america is dying, and unsurprisingly, so is morality.

/i'm not religious
Cultures are peaceful with religion and without religion (or religious institutions). Cultures are violent and immoral with religion and without it. Fighting and killing each other is what humans do -- all the more when we're crowded. Which is part of why we love the 2A, right? Police & military, law & order, these are ways of containing violence, not curing it. Beating our swords into ploughshares sounds good on paper but here on earth, it's a reality that has never been known & never will be. Might as well try to make cats vegetarians.

But humans are naturally religious, on average. Some say chimps are, too. Who knows? But we've definitely shifted from a culture that worships the Christian God to one that worships science. Heck, a pastor and an atheist mostly have the same lifestyle. They just rationalize it all differently. Nothing wrong with religion (including scientism) so long as you don't take yourself too seriously. Religion is a powerful justification for nearly anything you want to do. So the thought of giving one religion more power or influence over a wider scale is pretty darned scary to me. Best to keep it local. Work within your own community. Worst case scenario, the problems you create stay in your own backyard.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 03-13-2018, 9:00 AM
theLBC's Avatar
theLBC theLBC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 669
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
Cultures are peaceful with religion and without religion (or religious institutions). Cultures are violent and immoral with religion and without it. Fighting and killing each other is what humans do -- all the more when we're crowded. Which is part of why we love the 2A, right? Police & military, law & order, these are ways of containing violence, not curing it. Beating our swords into ploughshares sounds good on paper but here on earth, it's a reality that has never been known & never will be. Might as well try to make cats vegetarians.

But humans are naturally religious, on average. Some say chimps are, too. Who knows? But we've definitely shifted from a culture that worships the Christian God to one that worships science. Heck, a pastor and an atheist mostly have the same lifestyle. They just rationalize it all differently. Nothing wrong with religion (including scientism) so long as you don't take yourself too seriously. Religion is a powerful justification for nearly anything you want to do. So the thought of giving one religion more power or influence over a wider scale is pretty darned scary to me. Best to keep it local. Work within your own community. Worst case scenario, the problems you create stay in your own backyard.
i'm not advocating a theocracy, but simply pointing out some realities.
what long existing society was absent of any kind of religion?
i just wasn't able to think of any...

i believe religion, or the idea of god, is the abstraction of the theoretical ideal, to borrow a phrase from jordan peterson.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 03-13-2018, 3:29 PM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 402
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by theLBC View Post
i'm not advocating a theocracy, but simply pointing out some realities.
what long existing society was absent of any kind of religion?
i just wasn't able to think of any...

i believe religion, or the idea of god, is the abstraction of the theoretical ideal, to borrow a phrase from jordan peterson.
Absent organized religion? Plenty. Off the top of my head, animism is the first to come to mind. Shinto is another but, as I understand it, it is basically a Japanese form of animism/reverence for nature. Absent any religion/spiritual beliefs, none that I can think of either. But that's on a cultural-wide scale. Individuals always have varying levels of belief within that culture. Plenty of atheists throughout history -- long before they were called that. I'm convinced that most people don't really care that much about religion & never really have. But they go along with it. Same for most atheists. If God doesn't exist, why argue about it, right? There's nothing stranger to me than a militant atheist. Smile & nod... Most atheists that I know have better things to do than argue about how something isn't there.

Other definitions of religion that I prefer: What one DOES (forget the reasons, look to actions), and "What one ultimately devotes oneself to" (Ninian Smart's definition). Using those definitions, no culture has ever survived without religious beliefs of some kind. But, again, only on average. Individuals will always vary.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 03-13-2018, 3:40 PM
theLBC's Avatar
theLBC theLBC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 669
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
Absent organized religion? Plenty. Off the top of my head, animism is the first to come to mind. Shinto is another but, as I understand it, it is basically a Japanese form of animism/reverence for nature. Absent any religion/spiritual beliefs, none that I can think of either. But that's on a cultural-wide scale. Individuals always have varying levels of belief within that culture. Plenty of atheists throughout history -- long before they were called that. I'm convinced that most people don't really care that much about religion & never really have. But they go along with it. Same for most atheists. If God doesn't exist, why argue about it, right? There's nothing stranger to me than a militant atheist. Smile & nod... Most atheists that I know have better things to do than argue about how something isn't there.

Other definitions of religion that I prefer: What one DOES (forget the reasons, look to actions), and "What one ultimately devotes oneself to" (Ninian Smart's definition). Using those definitions, no culture has ever survived without religious beliefs of some kind. But, again, only on average. Individuals will always vary.
i don't disagree, but you are using the same argument (in part) that i hear from some militant atheist types.

the truth, and i am open to being corrected, is that everyone i have encountered so far (that use this argument) grew up in a society based on judeo-christian beliefs.
whether or not they have ever stepped in a church, or even considered the existence of a god, they cannot escape the fact that if they grew up here in the US, they were raised on the fundamental teachings of the church - or 9 of the 10 commandments (without necessarily knowing anything about the dogma and rituals of organized religion).
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 03-13-2018, 3:55 PM
The War Wagon's Avatar
The War Wagon The War Wagon is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: da' 'BURGH
Posts: 5,184
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Lightbulb

I'll just leave these here...


__________________
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 03-14-2018, 1:07 PM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 402
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by theLBC View Post
i don't disagree, but you are using the same argument (in part) that i hear from some militant atheist types.

the truth, and i am open to being corrected, is that everyone i have encountered so far (that use this argument) grew up in a society based on judeo-christian beliefs.
whether or not they have ever stepped in a church, or even considered the existence of a god, they cannot escape the fact that if they grew up here in the US, they were raised on the fundamental teachings of the church - or 9 of the 10 commandments (without necessarily knowing anything about the dogma and rituals of organized religion).
I'm confused about what argument you're talking about. Or what your point is. Please restate, if you please.

Not that I mind agreeing with militant atheists from time to time. Sometimes, they have good points. And with religion being crammed down some people's throats at times, I understand why they may feel so angry about it.

I wouldn't say that America is based on Christianity. It's influenced by it. But it was never meant to be a Christian utopia, no matter what some people wanted it to be or how they pandered to those who wanted it to be. Heck, if the book of Judges has any message for us at all it's that people aren't fit to rule themselves. It's author was advocating for a monarchy to deal with the anarchy from a loose confederation of tribes. Yet, later authors argued that God never wanted a king in the first place. Later, Jesus tried to kick out the Romans using a political term, "Meshiach," which is more political than religious. He wanted to be a king. And that's why the Romans executed him. And here we sit in a federation/democratic republic, modeled after a combination of Greek city-states, the Roman Republic and the Magna Carta and lots of people somehow think we're based on Judeo-Christian values? Sorry. I don't buy it. It's a narrative that people have adopted without taking the time to think much about it at all. Just because we have laws against lying, cheating and stealing doesn't mean we're based on Judeo-Christian values. Fraud, theft, murder, etc. are prohibited or otherwise frowned on everywhere. Hammurabi's code prohibited or punished many of these things and that was probably a few hundred years before the Hebrews' exodus out of Egypt.

Are we a Christian nation? No. Never were. Hope we never are. I'm happy to live among Christians. But their fanatics scare me as much as Isis, militant socialists, etc. We can be a nation of lots of Christians, influenced by their faith and culture, etc. That's what the founders intended, on the whole. There were plenty of atheists, agnostics, deists and zealots among those founding fathers, too.

Is Christianity necessary for morality? No. Plenty of morality going around outside of Christianity and they hardly started the idea.

Is morality necessary for a functioning society? Sure. As long as it's not too uptight about stuff. Freedom to do as I darn well please as long as I'm not hurting somebody else is important too. Some "sins" are fun. And I have every right to "sin" as long as I don't hurt somebody. The last thing I want is some uptight bureaucrat/rabbi telling me I can't have a cheeseburger (meat/milk is prohibited under Kashrut law), shellfish, work late on Friday or some other nonsense that's important to him but batsh** crazy to me 'cause I ain't Jewish. After all, if the Quakers or Mennonites took over, all these guns would have to be destroyed and instead of training in self defense & firearms, I'd be taking advanced restorative justice seminars and armed with nothing but prayer if somebody broke into my house intent on harm. No thanks!

Forget about making this a Christian nation. Protestants can't even agree on how to hold worship services, let alone how to run a government. Make peace with the idea that most people will disagree with you and that's a good thing. Otherwise, we'd just magnify our faults instead of cancelling them out.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 03-14-2018, 2:12 PM
Volksgrenadier's Avatar
Volksgrenadier Volksgrenadier is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: PDRK
Posts: 513
iTrader: 34 / 100%
Default

Iceland.


Settled by people of my faith, Heathens.

After the year AD 1000, the conversion to Christianity began.

Regardless, Iceland has been a pretty chill place to live for all of that time.

__________________
“Myths and legends die hard in America. We love them for the extra dimension they provide, the illusion of near-infinite possibility to erase the narrow confines of most men's reality. Weird heroes and mould-breaking champions exist as living proof to those who need it that the tyranny of 'the rat race' is not yet final.”

Hunter S. Thompson
The Great Shark Hunt: Strange Tales From a Strange Time
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 03-15-2018, 8:08 AM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 402
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volksgrenadier View Post
Iceland.


Settled by people of my faith, Heathens.

After the year AD 1000, the conversion to Christianity began.

Regardless, Iceland has been a pretty chill place to live for all of that time.

Amen to that!
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 03-15-2018, 8:14 AM
theLBC's Avatar
theLBC theLBC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 669
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
I'm confused about what argument you're talking about. Or what your point is. Please restate, if you please.

Not that I mind agreeing with militant atheists from time to time. Sometimes, they have good points. And with religion being crammed down some people's throats at times, I understand why they may feel so angry about it.

I wouldn't say that America is based on Christianity. It's influenced by it. But it was never meant to be a Christian utopia, no matter what some people wanted it to be or how they pandered to those who wanted it to be. Heck, if the book of Judges has any message for us at all it's that people aren't fit to rule themselves. It's author was advocating for a monarchy to deal with the anarchy from a loose confederation of tribes. Yet, later authors argued that God never wanted a king in the first place. Later, Jesus tried to kick out the Romans using a political term, "Meshiach," which is more political than religious. He wanted to be a king. And that's why the Romans executed him. And here we sit in a federation/democratic republic, modeled after a combination of Greek city-states, the Roman Republic and the Magna Carta and lots of people somehow think we're based on Judeo-Christian values? Sorry. I don't buy it. It's a narrative that people have adopted without taking the time to think much about it at all. Just because we have laws against lying, cheating and stealing doesn't mean we're based on Judeo-Christian values. Fraud, theft, murder, etc. are prohibited or otherwise frowned on everywhere. Hammurabi's code prohibited or punished many of these things and that was probably a few hundred years before the Hebrews' exodus out of Egypt.

Are we a Christian nation? No. Never were. Hope we never are. I'm happy to live among Christians. But their fanatics scare me as much as Isis, militant socialists, etc. We can be a nation of lots of Christians, influenced by their faith and culture, etc. That's what the founders intended, on the whole. There were plenty of atheists, agnostics, deists and zealots among those founding fathers, too.

Is Christianity necessary for morality? No. Plenty of morality going around outside of Christianity and they hardly started the idea.

Is morality necessary for a functioning society? Sure. As long as it's not too uptight about stuff. Freedom to do as I darn well please as long as I'm not hurting somebody else is important too. Some "sins" are fun. And I have every right to "sin" as long as I don't hurt somebody. The last thing I want is some uptight bureaucrat/rabbi telling me I can't have a cheeseburger (meat/milk is prohibited under Kashrut law), shellfish, work late on Friday or some other nonsense that's important to him but batsh** crazy to me 'cause I ain't Jewish. After all, if the Quakers or Mennonites took over, all these guns would have to be destroyed and instead of training in self defense & firearms, I'd be taking advanced restorative justice seminars and armed with nothing but prayer if somebody broke into my house intent on harm. No thanks!

Forget about making this a Christian nation. Protestants can't even agree on how to hold worship services, let alone how to run a government. Make peace with the idea that most people will disagree with you and that's a good thing. Otherwise, we'd just magnify our faults instead of cancelling them out.
no matter what your beliefs, our nation was founded on fundamental principles of judeo-christian values. it is not a "christian" country, but our society was undeniably shaped by religious values (as was england).

therefore, regardless of your feelings about religion, your actions are based on that upbringing.

to claim that you are inherently "good" or "moral" without the assistance or influence of religion is simply inaccurate, unless you lived someplace outside of the US or any country or society that was not similarly founded upon principles of any religion.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 03-15-2018, 2:21 PM
RAMCLAP's Avatar
RAMCLAP RAMCLAP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Orange, CA
Posts: 2,051
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

[QUOTE=CVShooter;21400291]



I wouldn't say that America is based on Christianity. It's influenced by it. But it was never meant to be a Christian utopia, no matter what some people wanted it to be or how they pandered to those who wanted it to be. Heck, if the book of Judges has any message for us at all it's that people aren't fit to rule themselves. It's author was advocating for a monarchy to deal with the anarchy from a loose confederation of tribes. Yet, later authors argued that God never wanted a king in the first place. Later, Jesus tried to kick out the Romans using a political term, "Meshiach," which is more political than religious. He wanted to be a king. And that's why the Romans executed him. And here we sit in a federation/democratic republic, modeled after a combination of Greek city-states, the Roman Republic and the Magna Carta and lots of people somehow think we're based on Judeo-Christian values? Sorry. I don't buy it. It's a narrative that people have adopted without taking the time to think much about it at all. Just because we have laws against lying, cheating and stealing doesn't mean we're based on Judeo-Christian values. Fraud, theft, murder, etc. are prohibited or otherwise frowned on everywhere. Hammurabi's code prohibited or punished many of these things and that was probably a few hundred years before the Hebrews' exodus out of Egypt.

Bibles are fairly easy to come by. In the absence of Bibles there are many fine Bibles on the internet. You should pick one up and read it before making statements that are so easy to dispute. If you were to pick up a Bible and actually read it you would quickly find that Jesus did not want to throw out Rome. And the Romans did not kill Him because He wanted to be king. Further, the Seperatists, also known as the "Pilgrims" specifically came here to start a Christian world devoid of European corruption. Every colonial university or college was built to train clergy. You can revise history all you want but the truth is always still there.
__________________
John 2:5
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 03-15-2018, 2:52 PM
theLBC's Avatar
theLBC theLBC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 669
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

[QUOTE=RAMCLAP;21404665]
Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post



I wouldn't say that America is based on Christianity. It's influenced by it. But it was never meant to be a Christian utopia, no matter what some people wanted it to be or how they pandered to those who wanted it to be. Heck, if the book of Judges has any message for us at all it's that people aren't fit to rule themselves. It's author was advocating for a monarchy to deal with the anarchy from a loose confederation of tribes. Yet, later authors argued that God never wanted a king in the first place. Later, Jesus tried to kick out the Romans using a political term, "Meshiach," which is more political than religious. He wanted to be a king. And that's why the Romans executed him. And here we sit in a federation/democratic republic, modeled after a combination of Greek city-states, the Roman Republic and the Magna Carta and lots of people somehow think we're based on Judeo-Christian values? Sorry. I don't buy it. It's a narrative that people have adopted without taking the time to think much about it at all. Just because we have laws against lying, cheating and stealing doesn't mean we're based on Judeo-Christian values. Fraud, theft, murder, etc. are prohibited or otherwise frowned on everywhere. Hammurabi's code prohibited or punished many of these things and that was probably a few hundred years before the Hebrews' exodus out of Egypt.

Bibles are fairly easy to come by. In the absence of Bibles there are many fine Bibles on the internet. You should pick one up and read it before making statements that are so easy to dispute. If you were to pick up a Bible and actually read it you would quickly find that Jesus did not want to throw out Rome. And the Romans did not kill Him because He wanted to be king. Further, the Seperatists, also known as the "Pilgrims" specifically came here to start a Christian world devoid of European corruption. Every colonial university or college was built to train clergy. You can revise history all you want but the truth is always still there.
btw, i wasn't trying to claim our founding fathers based our government on judeo-christian values. i am saying that because religion is entrenched into our culture (or was), the influence of religion on our culture is inescapable.

basically i am suggesting that it is impossible to claim inherent morality unless you were raised in a culture without religion or any religious influence whatsoever. it doesn't have to be christianity.

while Hammurabi's code may not be technically a religious text, according to Hammurabi, he was inspired by his fear or respect of god.

from wiki:
Quote:
Hammurabi ruled for nearly 42 years, from about 1792 to 1749 BC according to the Middle chronology. In the preface to the law, he states, "Anu and Bel called by name me, Hammurabi, the exalted prince, who feared God, to bring about the rule of righteousness in the land, to destroy the wicked and the evil-doers; so that the strong should not harm the weak; so that I should rule over the black-headed people like Shamash, and enlighten the land, to further the well-being of mankind."[5] On the stone slab are 44 columns and 28 paragraphs that contained 282 laws. Some of these laws follow along the rules of "an eye for an eye".[6]
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 03-16-2018, 9:43 AM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 402
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

theLBC -- good point. Nobody escapes the influences of religion. But there are good and bad influences. My experience and education have taught me that people act or make decisions to act first and then justify them later with some sort of reason why it was just, moral or necessary. Emotion always trumps logic in actions -- especially on core issues. So I won't disagree. But I disagree that Christianity's, or any other religion's influence is always positive. Culture an religion are too intertwined to say one influences the other without talking about how both influence each other -- and that in both good and bad ways.

As for Hammurabi, take the words for what they are -- the words of a politician. Even Cyrus & Darius claimed that the Hebrew God told him to let the Judeans go back and rebuild their temple. But they also said the same thing to every other culture and religion in their empire. It was a white-hat strategy after the Babylonian black-hats were conquered as a way of gaining loyalty. It's the same pandering BS that politicians do today.

RAMCLAP - you're funny. So many assumptions about some random guy on the internet. I won't bother trying to impress you with degrees, titles, books I've read, my boring family history, my personal story and my time spent living in Jerusalem. Suffice it to say that I've forgotten more about the Bible and the ancient Near East than most pastors will ever bother to learn. Whatever crazy opinions I have, I come by them quite honestly and not without a lot of study -- both formal and informal.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 03-16-2018, 1:57 PM
theLBC's Avatar
theLBC theLBC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 669
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
theLBC -- good point. Nobody escapes the influences of religion. But there are good and bad influences. My experience and education have taught me that people act or make decisions to act first and then justify them later with some sort of reason why it was just, moral or necessary. Emotion always trumps logic in actions -- especially on core issues. So I won't disagree. But I disagree that Christianity's, or any other religion's influence is always positive. Culture an religion are too intertwined to say one influences the other without talking about how both influence each other -- and that in both good and bad ways.

As for Hammurabi, take the words for what they are -- the words of a politician. Even Cyrus & Darius claimed that the Hebrew God told him to let the Judeans go back and rebuild their temple. But they also said the same thing to every other culture and religion in their empire. It was a white-hat strategy after the Babylonian black-hats were conquered as a way of gaining loyalty. It's the same pandering BS that politicians do today.
all religion is flawed, because all men are flawed.
i am not religious, but i don't think evil is done because of religion, it is often done in spite of religion.
religion is often blamed for bad things when it is really man's corruption and exploitation of faith that is the evil, and not the idea of god or religion.

you make very good and valid points, and you're not wrong, but blaming religion for bad things instead of the people that do them is like blaming guns for killing.

Last edited by theLBC; 03-16-2018 at 2:03 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 03-17-2018, 3:24 AM
RedRiderF26's Avatar
RedRiderF26 RedRiderF26 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Inland Empire
Posts: 282
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Negative
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 1:21 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2018, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
Calguns.net and The Calguns Foundation have no affiliation and are in no way related to each other.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.