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  #81  
Old 06-02-2011, 12:14 PM
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Shorthair, if you live in a school zone, you might mention that you are aware of it and know that to follow the Federal GFSZ law you have to transport your long guns in locked cases or the locked trunk of a car. Or at least be aware of that requirement if the agent brings it up.
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  #82  
Old 06-02-2011, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by oaklander View Post
Holy Moly!

That would look awesome if you posted those on the FEDEX Facebook wall. . .

I seriously have more respect for FedEx now!!!
I actually *FedEx-ed* a nice letter to Fred Smith, FedEx President and CEO. I included a bunch of photos and an annotated topo map showing how far his guy had hiked up the hill with no snowshoes. Our guy got an award, and last heard they were thinking about flying him out to TN to meet Fred Smith personally. Here is my letter and the after-action report. Mission accomplished.
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  #83  
Old 06-02-2011, 12:36 PM
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Thanks for the reminder. Excellent. Long guns will be delivered from common carrier to an adult at my door and then stored in a safe. When they leave my house they will only be transported in a locked case or in the locked trunk of a car. My city does have an ordinance(Article 10) about assuring that children under 18 do not have access to firearms so that could easily come up.
Thanks again !!

Last edited by Shorthair; 06-02-2011 at 6:05 PM..
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  #84  
Old 06-02-2011, 12:56 PM
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Thank you Kevin (Oaklander). I appreciate you taking the time to shed light on this curious new (trial) procedure.
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  #85  
Old 06-02-2011, 1:58 PM
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Originally Posted by oaklander View Post
LOL - yes - I personally HATE dealing with any government agencies. . .

BUT here, they really ARE just trying to educate - so we need to "reward" them for trying to do the right thing.

ALSO - forgot to mention in my original post on this topic:

The OTHER reason they are doing this is that it looks like SOME 03's (none of us, BTW) are using their 03's to try and "engage in the business." This isn't really fair to 01's - and is also illegal. So part of this push is to make sure that 03's know about the NOT "engaging in the business" part.

My takeaway from talking to them is that they are seriously just trying to do a good thing here. That makes them different from the "other" agency that we deal with. So again, let's reward them for doing the right thing, and NOT trying to pass another stupid gun law, etc. . .
Can you "opt out?" Test programs are all fine and good, but it can't be manditory to participate, can it? Makes me kinda glad I let my 03 lapse. I don't like jumping thru additional hoops regardless of the "good intentions."
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  #86  
Old 06-02-2011, 2:18 PM
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Much thanks oaklander, seen in this light the interview makes a bit more sense.

My feedback is simple, when they call for the interview, just tell the applicant exactly what you just told us. I was trying to figure out why I had to do this interview when no one else seemed to. What's especially frustrating is being told it's usual and been done for years. The internet exists guys, it's easy to find out that's basically a lie.
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  #87  
Old 06-02-2011, 2:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Shorthair View Post
17 days since my C.C. was charged. Last night I did a little homework on my city (La Mesa) zoning and ordinances as well as county. Not much at the city level that I could find and even less at the county. If they call me I am going to offer to schedule a phone interview or meet them at the local office. I appreciate the guys that did get blindsided with this giving a heads up on what might be coming so the rest of us won't be caught flat footed. A few days ago a C&R wasn't that big a deal to me but after reading these posts I'm pretty determined to excersise my freedom to get one.
A. This is not a business license and I will not use the license for anything other than the enjoyment derived from a personal collection.
B. Under the verbiage of my city business licensing requirement, my activities under the C&R will not be conducted with the intent of pay or profit.
I am therefore not in need of a buisiness licence.
C. I have made a reasonable effort researching at the City, County and State level and have found no evidence that the delivery of a firearm to the address stated on my application or any other activities allowed by a C&R license would violate any laws, zoning requirements or ordinances.
D. I have a safe but do not need a special safe for C&R.
E. All of the forms I will need are on the BATFE website

Anything else or have I said to much already??
I'd also brush up on when you'd need a COE. I only knew that I didn't need it for what I was planning on doing, but I didn't remember the specifics and he kept bringing it up.
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  #88  
Old 06-02-2011, 2:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oaklander View Post
Guys, two points:

1) it's a pilot program

2) education is good - and it's good to have a relationship with your local ATF office. . .
I don't necessarily agree.

If its not mandated, then the applicant should be able to decline without prejudice. While education IS good - all the information regarding my responsibilities as an 03 FFL are right there on their website, and mailed to me. Having to have an ATF investigator come to my house and have a talk with me? This is more intrusion by a government agency that isn't mandated ANYWHERE.


Quote:
Originally Posted by oaklander View Post
LOL - yes - I personally HATE dealing with any government agencies. . .

BUT here, they really ARE just trying to educate - so we need to "reward" them for trying to do the right thing.

ALSO - forgot to mention in my original post on this topic:

The OTHER reason they are doing this is that it looks like SOME 03's (none of us, BTW) are using their 03's to try and "engage in the business." This isn't really fair to 01's - and is also illegal. So part of this push is to make sure that 03's know about the NOT "engaging in the business" part.

My takeaway from talking to them is that they are seriously just trying to do a good thing here. That makes them different from the "other" agency that we deal with. So again, let's reward them for doing the right thing, and NOT trying to pass another stupid gun law, etc. . .
I'm not trying to disrespect you Oaklander - but to me your takeaway sounds pretty close to those arguments that gun control advocates use against us for new laws - why should we be against more strict gun control laws, the laws would only stand to make it more difficult for those criminals to get guns - I mean are you serious? do you think that because some 03FFls are breaking the law its a good thing to start doing pre-license interviews to prevent it - if "some" are breaking the law, that means the majority are not breaking the law, this to me seems like a "punish the good people" strategy - hell they can have a talk with me and I can STILL go out and break the law, either I'm going to do it or not. Its just another hurdle to make me, honest, law abiding citizen go over in order to obtain something that they have already created a difficult process of, to legally buy a gun.

As I said - I'm not trying to disrespect, but I think its a very thin line you walk when you advocate more regulation with something that is too highly regulated as it is. I just subjected myself to a background check in order to obtain a federal license to buy guns that are over 50 YEARS OLD - I never in my life thought it would come to something like this in the United States - and now that process isn't enough for them? Now they want to personally interview me / educate me before I get a license? Where does it stop? DNA samples?



-----

So, I just got off the phone with the Glendale Group III (Industry Operations) office. The guy I spoke to was very nice and answered all my questions regarding the "interview" (their words, not "educational talk").

I asked why I was being interviewed, and was basically told the same information as Oaklander posted, too many 03s selling as a business, its just a 20 minute talk - however that is not what inspector Mike Marbela told me, he specifically said "inspect your safe and your premises". I asked the Glendale agent about this, he knew who Mike Marbela was, and told me that his supervisor Antonia might give me call, but she would probably just talk to Mike directly. He also told me that this "interview" can take place at my job, and he highly recommended making the inspector either come to my job, or go to my house after 6pm (almost sounded like he wanted me to make this more difficult for the guy) - I was also advised to tell the inspector those were his only options to meet with me.

I will call Mike back today and schedule an appointment with him here at my job, and see where it goes from there.
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  #89  
Old 06-02-2011, 3:47 PM
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Go after the people who are abusing the license and don't waste time and money "interviewing" the 99.9 % who do the right thing. Much more cost-effective.
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  #90  
Old 06-02-2011, 4:33 PM
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Originally Posted by oaklander View Post
OK, in keeping with my personal philosophy of "not guessing," I just spoke with my contact at the ATF's office down in SoCal. ......
Oak:

Many thanks for going to the source and sharing the straight skinny.
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  #91  
Old 06-02-2011, 6:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul S View Post
Am I correct in believing this was for something else? I don't recall that prints are required for an 03FFL.
03 does not require prints (though some application packets were sent out last year with fingerprint cards).
01, 02, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, and 11 do.
All of the above are commercial in one form or another

01 - Title 1 dealer or gunsmith
02 - Title 1 pawnbroker
06 - Manufacture reloaded ammo and components for sale)
07 - Title 1 manufacturer/dealer
08 - Title 1 importer
etc....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #92  
Old 06-02-2011, 6:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
03 does not require prints (though some application packets were sent out last year with fingerprint cards).
01, 02, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, and 11 do.
All of the above are commercial in one form or another

01 - Title 1 dealer or gunsmith
02 - Title 1 pawnbroker
06 - Manufacture reloaded ammo and components for sale)
07 - Title 1 manufacturer/dealer
08 - Title 1 importer
etc....
as clarified earlier, it was a COE app that required the prints, not the 03 as initially reported.
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  #93  
Old 06-02-2011, 6:54 PM
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Originally Posted by oaklander View Post
Basically, this is a GOOD THING - and what they are doing this THIS:

They are just testing a pilot program to help educate new 03 FFL's about the "rules." Basically, just a quick 20 minute interview to make sure the 03 knows the fed and state rules about 03's. . .

The total emphasis on this is EDUCATION and not SCRUTINY. They just want to make sure that "we" know the rules. This makes things easier for everyone down the road, since when people don't break the rules, the ATF's job gets A LOT easier.
While I completely agree with you, the remain a couple of issues:

1 -
Applicant having to take time off work. Example, my shift is 6-15:30. I live about an hour from work. I'm assuming the interview would be between 9 and 4. Aim a 10ga at noon and pull the trigger... that's what this "20 minute education session" would do to my day.

What's wrong with a telephone interview?

2 - Interview at the home? Federal agent in my home without a warrant? Constitutional issues aside, that's a major inconvenience, and problematic due to my wife's sleep schedule (work injury, sometimes she's in bed by midnight, sometimes she can't sleep until 4 and sleeps until 14:00, no telling what kind of night she's going to have a day in advance, much less a week or more for setting up the interview)

What's wrong with a telephone interview?
What's wrong with the interview taking place at the field office?

From some of the comments above related to comments by the agents, it doesn't sound like it's just an "educational" interview.



Given reports of 03's getting surprise visits at home from field agents who are confusing 03 with 01 FFLs, I think the BATFE should spend some time educating their agents about the differences and the rights of an 03 before they start potentially violating 4A with in-home interviews of an unlicensed person.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #94  
Old 06-02-2011, 7:06 PM
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I'd also brush up on when you'd need a COE. I only knew that I didn't need it for what I was planning on doing, but I didn't remember the specifics and he kept bringing it up.
BATFE should not care about the COE. That is strictly a California DOJ document and it only applies to California transactions.

It has no impact on the interstate activities permitted by the 03FFL.
With or without the COE, you can still receive long guns at home. You can't receive handguns at home due to CA law. With or without the COE, you can travel out of state, purchase C&R handguns and long guns and bring them home. With or without the COE, you still have to pay $19 per to register handguns that you personally import as an 03FFL.

The only thing the COE does for you is eliminate the 10 day wait for C&R dealer purchases (and C&R handgun PPT), and eliminates the "1 hangun from dealer stock every 30 days" limit. These are both California-specific laws and the only thing the BATFE cares about is that all transactions follow all laws of all states involved.

In what was the context was your agent bringing it up?
You don't NEED the COE for any normal 03FFL activities.
An 01 does in fact need one.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.

Last edited by Cokebottle; 06-02-2011 at 7:09 PM..
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  #95  
Old 06-02-2011, 7:10 PM
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Originally Posted by goober View Post
as clarified earlier, it was a COE app that required the prints, not the 03 as initially reported.
I know... I have both, and I assumed that's what you were referring to when you mentioned the LiveScan.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #96  
Old 06-02-2011, 7:12 PM
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Let me update my situation. I called and spoke to the BATF inspector, I asked him if I could make an appointment for next week at my office. He pushed the "well I need to inspect your premises" and I told him that I had spoken to the Glendale office and they said it was acceptable for this meeting to take place at my job due to the scheduling - he then changed his tune and said "Oh yes, I can meet you at your work, but I'm not in the office right now so, can I call you back tomorrow to schedule your appointment next week?" - I'm now beginning to think that this guy has his own personal agenda here - I also listened to the message again, and he clearly says "I need to inspect your place of business or residence" he didn't say anything about I just need to go over the rules with you. He also clearly states "I'm calling about your application for an 03 FFL, Curios and Relics Firearms License"

Lucky me.
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  #97  
Old 06-02-2011, 8:07 PM
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I sent my application in in February, and got a call today. The Glendale ATF dept. is coming to my home for the interview. I will gladly do that. I will let everyone know how it went. I have no issue with this. If they keep people on the fringe out of it, then less likely will our rights be further clipped.
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  #98  
Old 06-02-2011, 8:08 PM
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LOL, of course you were!!!

I don't just make this stuff up. . .



Look - if they get feedback that it's becoming a PITA for folks, then maybe they will make it more streamlined. . . Again, this is an example of how WE AS A GROUP can work WITH the ATF and help them do what they want (interview/education), and do what we want too (NOT INCONVENIENCE US).

I'm pretty sure the agents don't want to be driving all over SoCal, so maybe a phone "interview" is better for both sides???

I don't know - I can't speak for them. . .

By all means, please give them feedback on this. If you think it's a bad idea, let the agent (and his or her supervisor) know. But do it in a nice way, please. The ATF is one of the few "players" in CA gun law politics that is NOT a problem. So, let's remember that they are essentially our friends here.

With respect to your other opinions, I must admit that I didn't really read them, since they simply don't make sense to me. Don't even try to argue with me about who is an anti-gunner and who is not. It's an argument that you will lose.

As law-abiding gun owners, we support educational efforts by law enforcement. At least they are trying to help people stay legal. And that's a good thing, at least according to common sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bill_k_lopez View Post
I asked why I was being interviewed, and was basically told the same information as Oaklander posted, too many 03s selling as a business, its just a 20 minute talk - however that is not what inspector Mike Marbela told me, he specifically said "inspect your safe and your premises". I asked the Glendale agent about this, he knew who Mike Marbela was, and told me that his supervisor Antonia might give me call, but she would probably just talk to Mike directly. He also told me that this "interview" can take place at my job, and he highly recommended making the inspector either come to my job, or go to my house after 6pm (almost sounded like he wanted me to make this more difficult for the guy) - I was also advised to tell the inspector those were his only options to meet with me.

I will call Mike back today and schedule an appointment with him here at my job, and see where it goes from there.
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  #99  
Old 06-02-2011, 8:14 PM
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Again, the general "common sense" rule is don't invite people into your house unless you actually WANT them in your house. This applies to everything - and not just gun stuff. Homes are private.

That being said, if it's EASIER for you to do it this way - then fine.

You guys who know me also know that I am the LAST person to argue for MORE government intrusion. But here, I'm just not seeing it. I'm seeing an educational effort that is being worked on by them.

If it turns out that it suddenly becomes a new requirement for an 03, then you will see me get upset and start making phone calls. But I'm just honestly not seeing that right now.

Remember, we support education. We do not support needless intrusion. It's not a fine distinction. It's an obvious difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cj65 View Post
I sent my application in in February, and got a call today. The Glendale ATF dept. is coming to my home for the interview. I will gladly do that. I will let everyone know how it went. I have no issue with this. If they keep people on the fringe out of it, then less likely will our rights be further clipped.
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  #100  
Old 06-02-2011, 8:14 PM
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Originally Posted by bill_k_lopez View Post
Lucky me.
See..."Lopez"...they got yer number








I am kidding btw.
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  #101  
Old 06-02-2011, 8:26 PM
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Gotta throw my hat in with the "No sir, I don't like it!" folks...

Education is good.
Intrusion under the guise of education is not.

Nor is giving agents/inspectors the authority to make things up as they go along.
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  #102  
Old 06-02-2011, 8:51 PM
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Sounds like billklopez & kenberto are both dealing with the LA field office but not the same investigator ? Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
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  #103  
Old 06-02-2011, 9:03 PM
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I do not disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goober View Post
Gotta throw my hat in with the "No sir, I don't like it!" folks...

Education is good.
Intrusion under the guise of education is not.

Nor is giving agents/inspectors the authority to make things up as they go along.
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  #104  
Old 06-02-2011, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
BATFE should not care about the COE. That is strictly a California DOJ document and it only applies to California transactions.

It has no impact on the interstate activities permitted by the 03FFL.
With or without the COE, you can still receive long guns at home. You can't receive handguns at home due to CA law. With or without the COE, you can travel out of state, purchase C&R handguns and long guns and bring them home. With or without the COE, you still have to pay $19 per to register handguns that you personally import as an 03FFL.

The only thing the COE does for you is eliminate the 10 day wait for C&R dealer purchases (and C&R handgun PPT), and eliminates the "1 hangun from dealer stock every 30 days" limit. These are both California-specific laws and the only thing the BATFE cares about is that all transactions follow all laws of all states involved.

In what was the context was your agent bringing it up?
You don't NEED the COE for any normal 03FFL activities.
An 01 does in fact need one.
Exactly, and if I had said what you just said, he almost certainly would have dropped it. I did know about the multiple handguns in a month and a couple other things, but I couldn't cite chapter and verse.

It sounds like the idea of this is to 'make sure the applicant knows the relevant rules'. That could be interpreted as either educational or inquisitive. Mine was more like an exam. As I'd only studied the parts I cared about, i.e. the activities I'd actually be engaging in, not potentially engaging in, I wasn't sure on all the details. Of course if I had any clue what the interview was going to be about, I could have studied. I'm learning more now.
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  #105  
Old 06-02-2011, 11:02 PM
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Sounds like billklopez & kenberto are both dealing with the LA field office but not the same investigator ? Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
Right, we're both under the LA field division but we're dealing with our local groups/satellites/field offices. http://www.atf.gov/field/losangeles/...nia-south.html
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  #106  
Old 06-02-2011, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by NotEnoughGuns View Post

Maybe the OP shares a common name with one or more felons or other "interesting" folks
It took over 12 weeks to get mine. Although....my address has changed every two years because of work.
Next....me last name is Irish.

Not that it matters.
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  #107  
Old 06-02-2011, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by GrizzlyGuy View Post
I actually *FedEx-ed* a nice letter to Fred Smith, FedEx President and CEO. I included a bunch of photos and an annotated topo map showing how far his guy had hiked up the hill with no snowshoes. Our guy got an award, and last heard they were thinking about flying him out to TN to meet Fred Smith personally. Here is my letter and the after-action report. Mission accomplished.
I read your letter and action report.
Sweet.

On a sad note....see if you can find that kind of action in downtown SF.
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Sip your Victory Gin folks, time's are a changin'

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  #108  
Old 06-02-2011, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by OHOD View Post
It took over 12 weeks to get mine. Although....my address has changed every two years because of work.
Next....me last name is Irish.

Not that it matters.
My name couldn't be more Irish.
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  #109  
Old 06-03-2011, 5:31 AM
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Originally Posted by GrizzlyGuy View Post
ROFL! Good point. If they think I'm lying, I'll show them pictures of my FedEx guy who hiked up here to deliver an overnight letter while the roads were still closed this winter:





The federal post office guys would never do that, so I doubt that an ATF examiner would either.

I'll have to show that pic to our Fedex guy. His legs would turn blue, he always wears shorts on the job.
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  #110  
Old 06-03-2011, 9:06 AM
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Originally Posted by oaklander View Post
Remember, we support education. We do not support needless intrusion. It's not a fine distinction. It's an obvious difference.
Maybe you should have read what I posted. The inspector, more than once said I need to inspect your premises, I need to take a look at your safe.

That isn't education, thats intrusion. And I think you know as well as I do once he's got some unsuspecting person to open that safe and let him take a look, whatever he finds is fair game.

What we should be doing is supporting our rights, we should be arguing that all of this nonsense serves no purpose but to impose more restrictions on our already restricted rights - the rights that keep getting taken away from us everyday by these wonderful helpful educational "pilot programs".

If 03FFLs are selling as a business, then go after them. They have the right to inspect and audit once a year - good - when they find someone who is doing this, take their license away.

You also seem to have overlooked the fact that "meet at my job" was never an option presented to me by the inspector, that little tid-bit was only discovered after me calling the office and asking. This whole program is fishy.


Sharply disagree, yes - disrespect, no.

Last edited by bill_k_lopez; 06-03-2011 at 9:10 AM..
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  #111  
Old 06-03-2011, 9:50 AM
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FWIW, I just got off the phone with the ATF office in Sacramento. They said that the examiner had finished processing my application and sent it back to the licensing center on May 20th with a recommendation of "issue license". There was no mention of an interview in this conversation or any of my other check-status calls to the main licensing center, and ATF hasn't contacted me at all since I applied.

Maybe this pilot program is just happening down at their LA office(?)

Rats, I just spent several hours reading through and studying 27 CFR Part 478 so I would be ready to ace the interview. Oh well, it's all good, each time I go through it I learn something new, so I guess I'll be less likely to screw up when I finally get the license.

Another tidbit I learned from ATF Sacramento: the name of the lady in the main licensing center who handles our applications from CA is Yvette Liskey. If someone needs to make a check-status call on an application, she'd be the best one to talk to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OHOD View Post
I read your letter and action report.
Sweet.
FedEx FTW! Hopefully one of these days I'll see their guy slogging through the snow with a shiny-old C&R rifle for me...
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  #112  
Old 06-03-2011, 10:18 AM
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DO NOT complain to me. I am just relaying intel.

Seriously, if you want to stop complaining, and you WANT to do something productive, call up your local field office - and let them know that the pilot isn't working well.

Don't waste time arguing with me, it's not productive - since I am NOT the ATF.

I don't even need to read your posts to know what you are thinking. You are pissed because you have to do something that you didn't expect to do. You also perceive this as an anti-gun thing. You are also kind of a hot-head.

Did I get those right?

NOW - take my advice - and call the ATF and politely complain. Don't treat them like you are treating me. Don't start a big drama like you are trying to do with me.

They are NOT going to send a SWAT team to your house, and they WILL listen to you.

But do not complain to me - that sort of thing will get you nowhere. I'm trying to help here, and you are dragging me through the mud. So just stop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bill_k_lopez View Post
Maybe you should have read what I posted. The inspector, more than once said I need to inspect your premises, I need to take a look at your safe.

That isn't education, thats intrusion. And I think you know as well as I do once he's got some unsuspecting person to open that safe and let him take a look, whatever he finds is fair game.

What we should be doing is supporting our rights, we should be arguing that all of this nonsense serves no purpose but to impose more restrictions on our already restricted rights - the rights that keep getting taken away from us everyday by these wonderful helpful educational "pilot programs".

If 03FFLs are selling as a business, then go after them. They have the right to inspect and audit once a year - good - when they find someone who is doing this, take their license away.

You also seem to have overlooked the fact that "meet at my job" was never an option presented to me by the inspector, that little tid-bit was only discovered after me calling the office and asking. This whole program is fishy.


Sharply disagree, yes - disrespect, no.
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  #113  
Old 06-03-2011, 10:20 AM
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Yes, and I'm getting tired of being their "voice." I've got other work to do. I'm going to suggest that one of them posts now in this thread.



Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzlyGuy View Post
Maybe this pilot program is just happening down at their LA office(?)
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  #114  
Old 06-03-2011, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzlyGuy View Post
FWIW, I just got off the phone with the ATF office in Sacramento. They said that the examiner had finished processing my application and sent it back to the licensing center on May 20th with a recommendation of "issue license". There was no mention of an interview in this conversation or any of my other check-status calls to the main licensing center, and ATF hasn't contacted me at all since I applied.

Maybe this pilot program is just happening down at their LA office(?)

Rats, I just spent several hours reading through and studying 27 CFR Part 478 so I would be ready to ace the interview. Oh well, it's all good, each time I go through it I learn something new, so I guess I'll be less likely to screw up when I finally get the license.

Another tidbit I learned from ATF Sacramento: the name of the lady in the main licensing center who handles our applications from CA is Yvette Liskey. If someone needs to make a check-status call on an application, she'd be the best one to talk to.



FedEx FTW! Hopefully one of these days I'll see their guy slogging through the snow with a shiny-old C&R rifle for me...
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  #115  
Old 06-03-2011, 6:04 PM
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oaklander is rite. we do not need gun laws we need education.if the media and Hollywood didn't have everyone thinking guns are evil we wouldn't have all these stupid laws.i am glad that you guys called another office and got that guy lined out that was the smart thing to do the government doesn't have to be scary most of them are just doing there job but there are bad apples everywhere.

Last edited by novass; 06-03-2011 at 6:20 PM..
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  #116  
Old 06-03-2011, 6:51 PM
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Originally Posted by oaklander View Post
DO NOT complain to me. I am just relaying intel.

Seriously, if you want to stop complaining, and you WANT to do something productive, call up your local field office - and let them know that the pilot isn't working well.

Don't waste time arguing with me, it's not productive - since I am NOT the ATF.

I don't even need to read your posts to know what you are thinking. You are pissed because you have to do something that you didn't expect to do. You also perceive this as an anti-gun thing. You are also kind of a hot-head.

Did I get those right?

NOW - take my advice - and call the ATF and politely complain. Don't treat them like you are treating me. Don't start a big drama like you are trying to do with me.

They are NOT going to send a SWAT team to your house, and they WILL listen to you.

But do not complain to me - that sort of thing will get you nowhere. I'm trying to help here, and you are dragging me through the mud. So just stop.
Oak, i don't think anybody was blaming you or complaining to you because they thought you should fix anything (at least i certainly wasn't).
Not to put words in the mouths of others, but i think just maybe a few folks took exception to your stance in your first post in the thread, where you brought us some good intel (thank you) but then sounded like you were saying we should all embrace this new behavior from ATF, it was a good policy, and that it was about education so we should be cool with it.
And then when some people voiced their disagreement with that it became more about arguing whether ATF was good or not and then finally degenerated to "don't shoot the messenger".
Nobody thinks it's your fault that some branch offices of ATF seem to be getting a bit overly zealous in their 03 FFL evaluations... And nobody expects you to change it. But some folks disagree on whether this is a Good Thing™ or not. And that's OK.
Anyway thanks for doing the research and helping to clarify what's been going on. And sorry if things got unpleasant in any way.
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  #117  
Old 06-03-2011, 7:01 PM
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Question

Conspiracy theories are fun, right? Right. Let me put on my tin foil hat, tighten it down, and toss a big-ole C-theory out on the table:

From FOXNews on May 28th: Obama Administration Eyeing Gun Control 'Under the Radar,' Groups Warn

Quote:
The Obama administration, after keeping gun control on the back burner for over two years, is prompting concern among gun rights groups that it's slowly starting to squeeze the trigger on tighter regulation... "They're doing a pretty good job ... as Obama has said, 'under the radar.' There's a lot going on under that radar," Gun Owners of America Director Larry Pratt said...
Obama's regulatory czar is Cass Sunstein, who is an anti-gun Progressive. Cass is a thinker and a tinkerer, always looking for ways to nudge people into behaviors that he thinks are best. No kidding, he actually co-authored a book on this technique:

Quote:
Amazon.com: What do you mean by "nudge" and why do people sometimes need to be nudged?

Thaler and Sunstein: By a nudge we mean anything that influences our choices. A school cafeteria might try to nudge kids toward good diets by putting the healthiest foods at front. We think that it's time for institutions, including government, to become much more user-friendly by enlisting the science of choice to make life easier for people and by gentling nudging them in directions that will make their lives better.
Whether it was intentional or not, kenberto was just nudged by a more 'user-friendly' ATF into withdrawing his license application. This nudging is apparently due to some new program that we didn't know about, and CGF didn't even know about. It was under our radar.

Hmmmm....

I just connected a series of dots. Should those dots be connected, or are they just entirely unrelated events and data points with no connections at all? Discuss!
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  #118  
Old 06-03-2011, 7:19 PM
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Here is a PDF from BATFE which is the current list of rules and regs for C&R license holders.

You get a hard copy of this manual after you receive your license, but it might be good to print it before your interview so you can review the relevant sections and rules.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...-p-5300-11.pdf


Check this link for additional down loads from BATFE regarding C&R stuff.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/curios-relics/
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  #119  
Old 06-03-2011, 7:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzlyGuy View Post
Conspiracy theories are fun, right? Right. Let me put on my tin foil hat, tighten it down, and toss a big-ole C-theory out on the table:

From FOXNews on May 28th: Obama Administration Eyeing Gun Control 'Under the Radar,' Groups Warn



Obama's regulatory czar is Cass Sunstein, who is an anti-gun Progressive. Cass is a thinker and a tinkerer, always looking for ways to nudge people into behaviors that he thinks are best. No kidding, he actually co-authored a book on this technique:



Whether it was intentional or not, kenberto was just nudged by a more 'user-friendly' ATF into withdrawing his license application. This nudging is apparently due to some new program that we didn't know about, and CGF didn't even know about. It was under our radar.

Hmmmm....

I just connected a series of dots. Should those dots be connected, or are they just entirely unrelated events and data points with no connections at all? Discuss!
the problem i have w/ a lot of CT's is that in order to be true, they require a higher degree of competence and coordination on the part of the gummint than i am generally willing to believe exists.
not saying it can't happen, but speaking in general, and knowing how inept and disorganized a lot of gov institutions are, it's hard to give them the credit for orchestrating the conspiracy.
on a more specific note, i sincerely believe that "under the radar" quote has been seriously overblown and fretted over. now i don't doubt for a second that Obama and his admin would love to enact more "gun control" limits on all of us. but i doubt its an action item right now.
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  #120  
Old 06-03-2011, 7:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzlyGuy View Post
I actually *FedEx-ed* a nice letter to Fred Smith, FedEx President and CEO. I included a bunch of photos and an annotated topo map showing how far his guy had hiked up the hill with no snowshoes. Our guy got an award, and last heard they were thinking about flying him out to TN to meet Fred Smith personally. Here is my letter and the after-action report. Mission accomplished.
Grizzly I commend you for writing a letter. I am a Letter Carrier for USPS and out of the major 3, we have the worst reputation. I will admit that it is semi well deserved but not all of us are lazy. Some of us do actually care and take our job seriously. Unfortunatly you hardly ever hear of the good stuff. I respect people who are willing to give kudos when kudos are deserved. Well done.
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