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National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 07-16-2018, 8:34 PM
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Default Illinois GOP Governor Extends Waiting Period To All Gun Purchases

Well... At least it's not 10-days...

GOP Illinois governor extends waiting periods for all gun purchases

Quote:
Illinois Gov. Bruce Rauner (R) signed a bill on Monday to extend a 72-hour mandatory waiting period for all firearm purchases.

The “cooling off period," which already applied to handgun purchases, now covers all guns being sold including assault-style weapons, The Chicago Tribune reported.

Rauner said he was “proud” to sign the protections into law and said it was a “very important step forward to increase safety for the people in our state.”

The governor also signed into law so-called “red flag” protections, which allows family members or police to seek a court order for guns to be confiscated from individuals deemed “an immediate or present danger” to themselves or others...

Rauner did, however, say he would veto legislation that would have created new inspection protocols for stores that sell guns, The Tribune reported.

“That bill will not increase public safety, it will increase red tape and restrictions and unnecessary burden on our small businesses in Illinois,” Rauner said of his veto.

Rauner vetoed a similar bill that would have required gun shops to obtain licenses in March, calling it a “burdensome regulation.”...
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  #2  
Old 07-17-2018, 4:57 AM
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Because those that already own guns need a "cooling off period" before buying another gun because people who don't own firearms make the firearms laws.
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  #3  
Old 07-17-2018, 6:26 AM
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"Cooling off periods" and "red flag protections" sounds pretty reasonable and euphemistic to someone who isn't big into guns. "Sensible gun control" at it's finest

What a joke
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Old 07-17-2018, 6:54 AM
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Thinking the cooling off period should be extended to other items used to kill and injure people.
Kitchen knives,baseball bats etc !

We need to recall how well the NJ waiting period worked for Carol Bowne !
https://www.ammoland.com/2015/06/car...#axzz5LWYACYS4
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Old 07-17-2018, 7:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ja308 View Post
Thinking the cooling off period should be extended to other items used to kill and injure people.
Kitchen knives,baseball bats etc !

We need to recall how well the NJ waiting period worked for Carol Bowne !
https://www.ammoland.com/2015/06/car...#axzz5LWYACYS4
Agreed and would add extend it to purchase of cigarettes, marijuana and Big Mac's
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  #6  
Old 07-17-2018, 7:56 AM
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More "California values" from another RINO. The current republican party looks like the democrats of 20 years ago.
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  #7  
Old 07-17-2018, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Jimi Jah View Post
More "California values" from another RINO. The current republican party looks like the democrats of 20 years ago.


The current main stream “go along to get along” Republics ARE the old school Democrats of yesteryear. The Democratic Party has been taken over by socialist and progressives. Very few old school Democrats exist. Case in point, Sen Feinstein, a long term fixture in the Democratic Party, couldn’t even get the California Democratic Party to stay neutral in the upcoming Senate race against “way out in left field” DeLeon.


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  #8  
Old 07-17-2018, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ja308 View Post
Thinking the cooling off period should be extended to other items used to kill and injure people.
Kitchen knives,baseball bats etc !

We need to recall how well the NJ waiting period worked for Carol Bowne !
https://www.ammoland.com/2015/06/car...#axzz5LWYACYS4
This. You need a nailgun to build a shed? You're gonna need a background check and to come back in 3 days. A putty knife for sheetrock patching? That's a 48 hour cool off period. If not, somebody could get hurt.
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Old 07-17-2018, 11:11 PM
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Let's see the waiting period and registration of bricks and rocks.
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  #10  
Old 07-18-2018, 11:48 AM
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I am OK with 72 hour wait (or make it 48, should be enough) on the very first gun purchase. There are people out there who should be checked and denied purchase. Subsequent delays are asinine.
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Old 07-18-2018, 6:01 PM
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There should be a cooling off period when buying Alcohol because you might drink and drive and kill someone.

There should be a cooling off period when buying tobacco because you might light up and make someone else breath second hand smoke which can kill them.

There should be a cooling off period on any automobile that can exceed the maximum state posted speed limit because you might speed and kill someone.

Must I go on.....?
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Old 07-22-2018, 9:31 AM
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Illinois already defines assault weapons in one section of the state code. Expanding the definition to more sections creates very bad future precedent. That's why the veto in this manner was necessary.
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Old 07-25-2018, 2:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erik_26 View Post
There should be a cooling off period when buying Alcohol because you might drink and drive and kill someone.

There should be a cooling off period when buying tobacco because you might light up and make someone else breath second hand smoke which can kill them.

There should be a cooling off period on any automobile that can exceed the maximum state posted speed limit because you might speed and kill someone.

Must I go on.....?
There are multiple existing restrictions on time and place where alcohol is sold.
There are strict licensing requirements to drive automobiles on the public roads. It is longer to obtain than a few days.

Your counter examples do not actually refute anything.
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Old 07-25-2018, 3:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Offwidth View Post
There are strict licensing requirements to drive automobiles on the public roads. It is longer to obtain than a few days.
you don't seem to count the difference between obtaining legal possession versus operate legally in public. you can buy a car Private party to private party in a Walmart parking lot. Dealers will be happy to sell you a new motorcycle without a license. whether or not you are following all laws is your problem.

Quote:
There are multiple existing restrictions on time and place where alcohol is sold.
again, no restrictions on who can buy it, you can walk into a liquor store smashed and with multiple DUI convictions and you can walk out with booze as long as you have a photo ID showing you are over 21.
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  #15  
Old 07-26-2018, 7:43 AM
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Driving is a privilege. Guns are a right.
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  #16  
Old 07-26-2018, 6:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Offwidth View Post
There are multiple existing restrictions on time and place where alcohol is sold.
There are strict licensing requirements to drive automobiles on the public roads. It is longer to obtain than a few days.

Your counter examples do not actually refute anything.
But they do.

The, "Cooling off," period in California is explicitly to allow time for the person purchasing a firearm to cool off as the state assumes that one would only be purchasing a firearm in a mental state of revenge or rage to murder someone in anger. Remember, murder in of itself, is a crime.

This is an example of guilty until proven innocent, figuratively.


If you apply the same logic that the state uses on firearm purchases on everyday common sense things, it makes perfect sense.

Why wouldn't the state assume the purpose of buying a performance car would be to speed, thus making you cool off? Driving at speeds that exceed the speed limit could put people at risk and could result in death.

Why wouldn't the state assume that you can't possibly be expected to obey the driving impaired laws? People that drink and drive could put people at risk and could result in death.

And so on.


The cooling off period does absolutely nothing. Other laws are in place to protect people. It is a 100% feel good law and an infringement on your rights.

What makes waiting 24-hrs more or less safe than waiting 48-hrs? What makes waiting 48-hrs more or less safe than waiting 72-hrs, or waiting 96-hrs, or waiting 240-hrs or 480-hrs?

A waiting time is 100% arbitrary and pointless. It is founded on the basis of what you might do.


It is total BS.


You cannot legislate safety, security, morals, responsibility, higher IQs or people out of poverty. It isn't possible.
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  #17  
Old 07-26-2018, 7:57 PM
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No they don’t. All those examples had been of the exact same issue done for exact same purpose. Restrictions on the initial acquisition or use of a dangerous object.
Subsequent waiting periods are what do not make any sense whatsoever. Initial one may have a purpose. All I said I am OK with that one as I could see logic. You do not, but I do. I have seen what people can do in a moment of affect.
What we agree on is that any subsequent waits or restrictions on quantity are clearly asinine.
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Old 07-26-2018, 8:07 PM
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Quote:
" Rauner said he was “proud” to sign the protections into law and said it was a “very important step forward to increase safety for the people in our state.”
Sure show me the data that says a waiting period saves lives.
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Originally Posted by Offwidth View Post
I am OK with 72 hour wait (or make it 48, should be enough) on the very first gun purchase. There are people out there who should be checked and denied purchase. Subsequent delays are asinine.
They can do an instant check, it takes a minute, just like a credit card purchase.
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  #19  
Old 07-27-2018, 7:33 AM
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"Cooling Off" is working great in Chicago. Just ask anyone living there.
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  #20  
Old 07-27-2018, 7:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Offwidth View Post
No they don’t. All those examples had been of the exact same issue done for exact same purpose. Restrictions on the initial acquisition or use of a dangerous object.
Subsequent waiting periods are what do not make any sense whatsoever. Initial one may have a purpose. All I said I am OK with that one as I could see logic. You do not, but I do. I have seen what people can do in a moment of affect.
What we agree on is that any subsequent waits or restrictions on quantity are clearly asinine.
I don't believe in an initial waiting period. I don't see the logic in it either.

In a state of rage, many common use items can become dangerous and lethal tools that don't require an initial waiting period or background check. Even if premeditating, many common use items can become dangerous and lethal tools.

To be clear, I am in favor of a background check.

Vehicles, bats, pipes, hammers, axes, knifes, large tools, rope, plastics.... and so on are all common use items without waiting periods or background checks that can easily and effectively be used to dispatch someone. Obviously firearms could be on that list, but the point is they are not exclusive or limiting.

Some people are more sinister and attempt to go above and beyond by poisoning, sabotaging or even torturing their intended victim.


Look, when my son was 9-years old, all on his own, he had an epiphany and asked me to validate his assumption that, "bad people will do bad things no matter the law." I agree with that.


If you are a bad person at your core, whether you wait 1-second or 100-days for your first, last or in between firearm, eventually you do bad things. Any waiting period does nothing to stop crime. It is a 100% feel good law.
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  #21  
Old 07-27-2018, 9:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Maulerrr View Post
"Cooling off periods" and "red flag protections" sounds pretty reasonable and euphemistic to someone who isn't big into guns. "Sensible gun control" at it's finest

What a joke
Let's not forget that the gun grabbers call this "a good first step" as if guns were falling from the sky and there were no laws prior to this. "We need to do more" is their battle hymn
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Old 07-27-2018, 9:47 AM
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Their logic is flawed. Which is more likely. A person that is planning an attack going out and buying a gun for the first time? Or are people that would turn to a gun to commit a crime are likely a person that has experience and access to guns?

Then think about a person that recently had been threatened. Isn't it possible such a person doesn't have experience with firearms and doesn't own one?

So the cooling off period is more likely to delay a potential victim from arming them self for defense than it would be to delay the arming of an attacker. Further who gets to choose the time and place for an attack? The victim or the aggressor?

Maybe in terms they understand. Who is more likely not to have a gun and needs one faster? The abusive husband that regularly beats his wife. Or the wife that has finally had enough and has removed herself and children from their home.
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Old 07-27-2018, 11:11 AM
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That is your opinion. I disagree.

Person needs his first ever gun quickly when they are not thinking straight. In an emergency, if there is time and opportunity to go to a store, there is time to consider other protection options, like going to police, that are less likely to end up badly for everyone.
As I said - I am OK with first time wait, or basic competency check or exam. It is not my goal to persuade you, or anybody for that matter.
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Old 07-27-2018, 11:49 AM
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Yes because police will sit with you for ten days I'm your motel room while you are waiting for your gun. Complete forgetting the police have no duty to protect.

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/p...o-protect.html

I'm not offering an opinion. I'm asking a question. Who is more likely to start unarmed? The attacker or the victim? Further a 200lb male is already at an advantage over 100lb female. He doesn't need a gun to cause harm while her only reasonable defense is to be armed with a weapon. Something that will send off an attacker at range, in short a gun.

Further so the data we have on mass shooters suggest extensive planning, preparation and practice is almost always happens. So any wait period would have little to no effect on them.

It takes about one hour to complete a polymer lower and it can be done with nothing but a hand drill. Are we to ban all home builds oh wait will murders follow those laws but not others? So again who are we disarming?

Waiting periods like other common sense laws are ridiculous when you examine them. They do, like most gun laws have a long racist history. The lesser races were considered to be more hot tempered and thus needed to be stopped from easy quick access to guns.

I support background checks. I even support them in PPT at gun shows assuming the doj opens a kiosk to provide instant checks. I also support safe handling instruction requirements. Anyone buying a gun should have to demonstrate safe handling at the point of sale or provide proof of a one hour class teaching it. Having someone just know the three rules would help prevent a few negligent discharges. I don't support our fsc tests today as I see no reason a person buying a Glock 19 for self defense needs to know what shotgun choke is best for ducks.

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Originally Posted by Offwidth View Post
That is your opinion. I disagree.

Person needs his first ever gun quickly when they are not thinking straight. In an emergency, if there is time and opportunity to go to a store, there is time to consider other protection options, like going to police, that are less likely to end up badly for everyone.
As I said - I am OK with first time wait, or basic competency check or exam. It is not my goal to persuade you, or anybody for that matter.
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Old 07-27-2018, 8:40 PM
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"Cooling off period" as we all know is a joke. Gov't always assumes a gun purchaser is doing so for nefarious reasons.

Was CA safer when we had to wait 15 days for handguns? Many states perform an "instant check" which is literally an hour or slightly more. 72 hours, 10 days, etc, is simply to dissuade and complicate purchases. Especially for current gun owners.
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Old 07-28-2018, 9:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Offwidth View Post
That is your opinion. I disagree.

Person needs his first ever gun quickly when they are not thinking straight. In an emergency, if there is time and opportunity to go to a store, there is time to consider other protection options, like going to police, that are less likely to end up badly for everyone.
As I said - I am OK with first time wait, or basic competency check or exam. It is not my goal to persuade you, or anybody for that matter.
There are many reasons why one could need a firearm on short notice.

People are threatened all the time and as someone else posted, the Police have no duty to protect.

You could have a restraining order against a violent person that has zero respect for the law. You could be a key witness to a drug crime, gang crime or other crime in which the accused or their associates will make a real effort to silence you.

I am not trying to change your mind. I am only responding so that others that are on the fence have more perspectives to help them form their own opinions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobG View Post
"Cooling off period" as we all know is a joke. Gov't always assumes a gun purchaser is doing so for nefarious reasons.
Correct.

The other thing that blows my mind is how, after your waiting period, the state trusts you to transport your weapons legally and trusts you not to break all the other unnecessary gun laws that are on the books.

If you can be ultimately be cleared to purchase and leave the store with it, why can't you be trusted to carry it? Nothing is physically stopping you from illegally carrying it anyways or physically stopping you from injuring or killing someone with it.
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Old 07-28-2018, 9:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Maulerrr View Post
"Cooling off periods" and "red flag protections" sounds pretty reasonable and euphemistic to someone who isn't big into guns.
I think you are giving them too much credit

Waiting periods do not generally sound reasonable to, for example, the 9th.

There are only examples of intellectual dishonesty in the service of a political agenda (IOW, a deliberate failure to be impartial).

Look at the 9th. They always hate waiting periods which affect rights, and are quick to apply elevated scrutiny, except in the case of the 2A:

Quote:
Originally Posted by some SCOTUS Justice named C. Thomas
The Ninth Circuit invalidated an Arizona law, for example, partly because it “delayed” women seeking an abortion. Planned Parenthood Arizona, Inc. v. Humble, 753 F. 3d 905, 917 (2014). The court found it important there ...that the State “presented no evidence whatsoever that the law furthers [its] interest” and “no evidence that [its alleged danger] exists or has ever [occurred].”

and more from Justice Thomas about the hypocrisy in the 9th:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justice Thomas
Similarly, the Ninth Circuit struck down a county’s 5-day waiting period for nude-dancing licenses because it “unreasonably prevent[ed] a dancer from exercising first amendment rights while an application [was] pending.” Kev, Inc. v. Kitsap County, 793 F. 2d 1053, 1060 (1986). The Ninth Circuit found it dispositive there...that the county “failed to demonstrate a need for [the] five-day delay period.”
and yes, still more from Justice Thomas about the hypocrisy in the 9th:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justice Thomas
In another case, the Ninth Circuit held that laws embracing traditional marriage failed heightened scrutiny because the States presented “no evidence” other than “speculation and conclusory assertions” to support them. Latta v. Otter, 771 F. 3d 456, 476 (2014).
No reasonable human could believe that these imaginary or otherwise rights deserve protections denied to the 2A, and with so many examples, no reasonable human could conclude that this is an accident on the part of the 9th. They are entirely aware that they are treating the 2A like a 2nd-class right, and simply don't care, because there are no negative consequences for them whatsoever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Offwidth View Post
Person needs his first ever gun quickly when they are not thinking straight. In an emergency, if there is time and opportunity to go to a store, there is time to consider other protection options, like going to police, that are less likely to end up badly for everyone.
As I said - I am OK with first time wait, or basic competency check or exam. It is not my goal to persuade you, or anybody for that matter.
It doesn't really matter what you are OK with, nobody is asking you to change your personal opinion. You can be OK with slavery if you want, just as long as you don't participate in it, because it is unconstitutional.
Same thing with waiting periods. It's totally fine to be OK with them as a personal opinion, but as the courts have held that waiting periods are not constitutional when applied to so many "rights", waiting periods against other rights must be given the same evaluation.
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Old 07-28-2018, 9:37 AM
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Originally Posted by ja308 View Post
Thinking the cooling off period should be extended to other items used to kill and injure people.
Kitchen knives,baseball bats etc !
Cars, whiskey, golf clubs, fists ... oh wait ....
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Old 07-28-2018, 9:56 AM
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None of those items are as deadly as purposefully designed “arms”. And you should be thankful for that, as otherwise there would be no separate bill of rights entry protecting arms ownership.

I will gladly trade no restriction on all common arms, like semiautomatic rifles and pistols with no “micro stamping” for having to wait a bit for the first purchase. Pick your battles.
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Old 07-28-2018, 10:38 AM
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None of those items are as deadly as purposefully designed “arms”. And you should be thankful for that, as otherwise there would be no separate bill of rights entry protecting arms ownership.

I will gladly trade no restriction on all common arms, like semiautomatic rifles and pistols with no “micro stamping” for having to wait a bit for the first purchase. Pick your battles.
Millions of people would disagree with you, and claim that abortion is far deadlier.

Also, while fantasy trades on 2A restrictions might be fun for the imagination, those fantasies don't translate into reality, so they have no effect on which battles might be selected.
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Old 07-28-2018, 10:48 AM
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This attitude towards bargaining is what got us the nfa, gca68, Hughes amendment, magazine limits and just about every other form of gun control which together has erdoded our rights to something that would shame the founders.

There can be no bargain. Every inch we give just energized the grabbers to take more. Have no misunderstanding their goal is to outlaw private ownership of all firearms.

There is no middle ground for them only steps to an ultimate goal.

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Originally Posted by Offwidth View Post
None of those items are as deadly as purposefully designed “arms”. And you should be thankful for that, as otherwise there would be no separate bill of rights entry protecting arms ownership.

I will gladly trade no restriction on all common arms, like semiautomatic rifles and pistols with no “micro stamping” for having to wait a bit for the first purchase. Pick your battles.
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Old 07-28-2018, 11:03 AM
Deedle Deedle is offline
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Also, while fantasy trades on 2A restrictions might be fun for the imagination, those fantasies don't translate into reality, so they have no effect on which battles might be selected.
They are fun but ultimately as you say, not productive because the other side will never give up anything worth having. In a situation like that real compromise is impossible.

In theory I would be willing to go with some actual risk based regulations in exchange for getting rid of basically all other existing regulations, but the reality is that the other side just wants the take and not the give, so it's never going to be viable anyway.
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Old 07-28-2018, 12:06 PM
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...there is time to consider other protection options, like going to police,...
What's the saying? Oh, yeah. "When seconds count the police are only minutes away"....if they come at all, lol.
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Old 07-28-2018, 12:44 PM
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That is your opinion. I disagree.

Person needs his first ever gun quickly when they are not thinking straight. In an emergency, if there is time and opportunity to go to a store, there is time to consider other protection options, like going to police, that are less likely to end up badly for everyone.
As I said - I am OK with first time wait, or basic competency check or exam. It is not my goal to persuade you, or anybody for that matter.
Wow, what a maroon. But not to worry, fortunately you aren’t persuasive.

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Originally Posted by Offwidth View Post
I will gladly trade no restriction on all common arms, like semiautomatic rifles and pistols with no “micro stamping” for having to wait a bit for the first purchase. Pick your battles.
Sure pal. Giving inches has worked out so well. Here’s a news flash, you are not getting anything in return. Zilch. Just incremental creep towards total disarmament, and it is attitudes like yours that we have to thank for it. Some people can’t see the forest.
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Old 07-28-2018, 10:18 PM
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[snip] I will gladly trade no restriction on all common arms, like semiautomatic rifles and pistols with no “micro stamping” for having to wait a bit for the first purchase. Pick your battles.
How's that working out for us? We already have waiting periods, and yet they still gave us micro-stamping. How about 1 in 30 laws, first it was handguns, now they're going after long guns too.

If you're so worried that you need some time to cool off after your purchase, buy your firearms on a layaway program.
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