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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 01-26-2017, 12:00 AM
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Default 1-6x Scope

After doing some shooting with my Vortex PST 1-4x, decided to sell it off and switch to a 1-6x on that rifle. Got a couple of options in mind, wanted to see what people think.

I see on the Vortex site that their PST Gen II 1-6x is coming in Spring 2017. However it's listed at $1k, whereas the Razor HD is listed at $1300 on Amazon. I'm guessing the actual street price for the PST will be around $8-900.

Other options include the Trijicon Accupoint and Leupold VX-6. All are around $1k. So what do you think guys?

Last edited by Rhyyke; 01-26-2017 at 1:09 AM..
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Old 01-26-2017, 1:04 AM
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List price isn't the same as street price. Optics Planet has them for pre order at $699.
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  #3  
Old 01-26-2017, 8:43 AM
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Oh man I knew it would be different but not that big a difference... pretty tempting to just sit and wait for the PST.
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Old 01-26-2017, 9:00 AM
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I thought the new Vortex 1-6 was in the $600 range, street price.
I took a look through one on the Shot Show floor and it was pretty nice, just like the HDll.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJZcaTobBZI

Also, The Trijicon 1-8 is banging'. I did some shooting with that new optic. Plus they're shipping right now.
If the street price is good, the Triji is what I'd be looking at.
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Old 01-26-2017, 9:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by technique View Post
I thought the new Vortex 1-6 was in the $600 range, street price.
I took a look through one on the Shot Show floor and it was pretty nice, just like the HDll.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJZcaTobBZI

Also, The Trijicon 1-8 is banging'. I did some shooting with that new optic. Plus they're shipping right now.
If the street price is good, the Triji is what I'd be looking at.
How are the eye relief and weight of the Trijicon?
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Old 01-26-2017, 9:04 AM
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My strike eagle is decent for 300 bux +/- from optics planet.
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Old 01-26-2017, 9:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Rhyyke View Post
How are the eye relief and weight of the Trijicon?
Average end of the upper eye relief. The weight is 28oz I think. The reticle is different, it's like a giant (HUGE) EoTech reticle at 8X.

Right now I'm shooting a Steiner 1-4. Awesome day brightness that is hard to beat, but I'd rock that new Triji
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Old 01-26-2017, 9:27 AM
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If you can wait for the new Burris RT-6, due in April, you will get excellent value for your dollar. List price of $540 with mount and a Fastire red dot, probably retail around $450, and it will be available without the mount and Fstfire for less money as well.

Glass is excellent, better than anything else in the class or price range and as good or better than anything else under $1000.
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Old 01-26-2017, 9:44 AM
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Just got the new Athlon Midas 1-6x is the Vortex killer at $500 price point, the 2016 is SFP, the new 2017 available in spring is FFP, illuminated and available either in MOA or mil. Outperforms the Strike Eagle on edge to edge glass clarity, better thinner reticle, transferable lifetime warranty. Positive reviews with pics on Sniper's Hide forum. Downside is they do not come with lens caps.
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  #10  
Old 01-26-2017, 9:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyyke View Post
Oh man I knew it would be different but not that big a difference... pretty tempting to just sit and wait for the PST.
I have a spare Accupoint 1-6 Green triangle BAC that I am looking to offload. It is new, never fired with, mounted in a Bobro mount. Let me know if you are interested.

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  #11  
Old 01-26-2017, 10:00 AM
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Man lots of options coming up in the Spring, maybe the thing to do is to hold out to compare the new $600-ish options from Burris, Vortex and Athlon. Guess it's the waiting game for now...

On the other hand, that Trijicon might find it's way to my SCAR 17 if I ever decide to get it it's own optic.
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  #12  
Old 01-26-2017, 10:26 AM
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I've been saving for a TR25c200090 for a while. But for double the dosh, I could get the Kahles K16i. Maybe I'll wait some for what's new in 2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHzvI6zu7Mo
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Old 01-26-2017, 1:41 PM
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Not to hijack, but how about a 1-8 instead?
I picked up a Burris 1.5-8 on sale for $600 I think it was for one rifle.
Now for a different rifle I'm thinking about a hi-lux Leatherwood 1-8 for $800, or maybe a Vortex razor 1.5-8 for $626, or maybe a Primary arms 1-8 for $380; any thought gents?
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Old 01-26-2017, 1:55 PM
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Personally I am planning on a 8x down the line, but it will either be for my SCAR17 or PWS Mk216 (of which I have yet to buy the upper lol).
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Old 01-26-2017, 4:17 PM
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I have the new Burris XTR II 1-8 and its friggin awesome, best value for dollar spent out there.
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Old 01-26-2017, 5:47 PM
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Sweet chocolate baby Jesus on a biscuit, you guys sure do like to drop a lot of coin on optics that'll see the range 99.9% of the time!
Ever consider the Primary Arms 1-8x24mm with the ACSS reticle? $369

I have this on my Stag 3G and it is amazing for the money. Also, Athlon is making some very decent quality scopes at very reasonable prices.
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  #17  
Old 01-26-2017, 6:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rumble phish View Post
Sweet chocolate baby Jesus on a biscuit, you guys sure do like to drop a lot of coin on optics that'll see the range 99.9% of the time!
Ever consider the Primary Arms 1-8x24mm with the ACSS reticle? $369

I have this on my Stag 3G and it is amazing for the money. Also, Athlon is making some very decent quality scopes at very reasonable prices.
I am on the range every week, sometimes more, sometimes less, but I shoot a lot.
The Burris 1-8 is an amazing value if your looking for a quality 1X6/8 range scope. Cheper and better than the Vortex Razor HD. half the price of the Swaro or Kahles.
Good glass with usable features is worth a lot.
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Old 01-26-2017, 6:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwalker View Post
I am on the range every week, sometimes more, sometimes less, but I shoot a lot.
The Burris 1-8 is an amazing value if your looking for a quality 1X6/8 range scope. Cheper and better than the Vortex Razor HD. half the price of the Swaro or Kahles.
Good glass with usable features is worth a lot.
The Burris does look nice.

Re; your range time - I think you are the exception to the rule here. I'd venture to guess that more than 90% of the membership who own and shoot AR's here don't get to the range more than once a month. And even then, it's just plinking at paper targets.
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  #19  
Old 01-26-2017, 6:39 PM
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Another option in that price point. I have one and like it. But I really don't run it much. I tend to prefer my Aimpoint T2 for it's size. Apples and oranges though.

https://swfa.com/catalog/product/vie...mm-riflescope/
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  #20  
Old 01-26-2017, 10:09 PM
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Just spend a bit more for the Razor and you will not wonder if you could have gotten a better bang for your buck. Other than weight it cant be beat for the money. I have it on my 3gun rifle and now plan to put one on my coyote gitter.
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  #21  
Old 01-26-2017, 10:10 PM
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How much does the Razor weigh?
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Old 01-26-2017, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyyke View Post
How much does the Razor weigh?
More than the Burris Costs more too, and its not as good. I have tried most of the 1-4, 1-6, and 1-8 optics out there and the Burris is the best out there in the sub-2K market. The Kahles is a tick lighter (but only 1-6) and the Swaro has slightly better glass, but is way more money.
The vortex is good, but the Burris is just better, and the soon to be available RT-6 is an excellent starter 3-gun scope or perfect plinking scope.
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  #23  
Old 01-27-2017, 1:42 AM
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I have both Vortex Razor HD Gen 2 1-6 and Burris TAC 30 1-4. The price ratio is about 4-1. Is it worth it? That's highly subjective, so I'll just give you a few pointers.

Most scopes outside the bargain bin will keep the zero. Clicks will be more or less true to their nominal value even within the same brand. You can also play games where you do a "rectangular pattern" with clicks to see if you get back to your original zero. That's nice for long range benchrest, but for practical shooting (and the only reason you need low end at 1x is practical shooting) you'll rarely adjust your scope. Instead, you'll be using your reticle to compensate for distance on the fly.

Where you'll notice by far the most difference is at the low end of the magnification. Some scopes will claim 1x, yet if you look with both eyes open you'll notice that it's "close to 1x, but not quite 1x." Then, you'll notice the "fishbowl effect" where it's pretty close to 1x in the middle, but it gets distorted towards the edges. The problem is that at *exactly 1x* you should be able to have both eyes open and see just superimposed crosshairs. You *will* notice any deviation, whether it's just at the edges or in the center of the image. This is also where the illuminated reticle comes to play - a bright red dot in the middle of a high quality scope will make it feel like a true "red dot" - you line up the dot with the target and shoot.

As you can guess, this is where Vortex excels - at 1x magnification. TAC 30 doesn't come close both because it's slightly distorted (enough to throw you off when you keep both eyes open) and because the reticle doesn't give you the "red dot" feel.

It's funny that the difference is much less important at higher magnification and that you can use both for benchrest shooting equally well, yet it's the low end that makes the difference. If they started at 2x instead of 1x it would be much more difficult to make the argument for the more expensive scope since any slight distortion is just that - a *slight* distortion. However, when you go down to *exactly* 1x, you will be using *both* eyes and that's where it makes a HUGE difference.

To summarize, to me personally it's more than worth it. It's not a matter of one scope being "slightly better," it's a matter of using it as a red dot vs. not having a true 1x. It's a different category at 1x.
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Old 01-27-2017, 1:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rumble phish View Post
Re; your range time - I think you are the exception to the rule here. I'd venture to guess that more than 90% of the membership who own and shoot AR's here don't get to the range more than once a month. And even then, it's just plinking at paper targets.
True, but scopes that go down to 1x are very special - you'll be comparing 1x in your dominant eye with the true 1x in your other eye that is open at the same time. Small differences between your eyes will throw your brains off and you'll easily notice even the slightest distortion.

So even if you are a casual plinker you *will* benefit from high quality glass at 1x. You might not care at 10x how sharp the edges are since it's just a truly minute effect, but have the same issue at 1x and you'll more than notice.
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Old 01-27-2017, 1:54 AM
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IVC is right. If you get the chance to look through a true 1X variable-power scope with both eyes open right after looking through a not-quite-1X, you'll feel your eyes and mind relax, because it incurs less eyestrain.
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Old 01-27-2017, 2:15 AM
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IMO Razor Gen II is worth the cash.

1x is the best on the Razor from all the 1-x power scopes I've used. Very flat image with only minimal distortion around the edges.
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Old 01-27-2017, 6:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IVC View Post
I have both Vortex Razor HD Gen 2 1-6 and Burris TAC 30 1-4. The price ratio is about 4-1. Is it worth it? That's highly subjective, so I'll just give you a few pointers.

Most scopes outside the bargain bin will keep the zero. Clicks will be more or less true to their nominal value even within the same brand. You can also play games where you do a "rectangular pattern" with clicks to see if you get back to your original zero. That's nice for long range benchrest, but for practical shooting (and the only reason you need low end at 1x is practical shooting) you'll rarely adjust your scope. Instead, you'll be using your reticle to compensate for distance on the fly.

Where you'll notice by far the most difference is at the low end of the magnification. Some scopes will claim 1x, yet if you look with both eyes open you'll notice that it's "close to 1x, but not quite 1x." Then, you'll notice the "fishbowl effect" where it's pretty close to 1x in the middle, but it gets distorted towards the edges. The problem is that at *exactly 1x* you should be able to have both eyes open and see just superimposed crosshairs. You *will* notice any deviation, whether it's just at the edges or in the center of the image. This is also where the illuminated reticle comes to play - a bright red dot in the middle of a high quality scope will make it feel like a true "red dot" - you line up the dot with the target and shoot.

As you can guess, this is where Vortex excels - at 1x magnification. TAC 30 doesn't come close both because it's slightly distorted (enough to throw you off when you keep both eyes open) and because the reticle doesn't give you the "red dot" feel.

It's funny that the difference is much less important at higher magnification and that you can use both for benchrest shooting equally well, yet it's the low end that makes the difference. If they started at 2x instead of 1x it would be much more difficult to make the argument for the more expensive scope since any slight distortion is just that - a *slight* distortion. However, when you go down to *exactly* 1x, you will be using *both* eyes and that's where it makes a HUGE difference.

To summarize, to me personally it's more than worth it. It's not a matter of one scope being "slightly better," it's a matter of using it as a red dot vs. not having a true 1x. It's a different category at 1x.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IVC View Post
True, but scopes that go down to 1x are very special - you'll be comparing 1x in your dominant eye with the true 1x in your other eye that is open at the same time. Small differences between your eyes will throw your brains off and you'll easily notice even the slightest distortion.

So even if you are a casual plinker you *will* benefit from high quality glass at 1x. You might not care at 10x how sharp the edges are since it's just a truly minute effect, but have the same issue at 1x and you'll more than notice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchang0 View Post
IVC is right. If you get the chance to look through a true 1X variable-power scope with both eyes open right after looking through a not-quite-1X, you'll feel your eyes and mind relax, because it incurs less eyestrain.

Granted, I've never used $900+ 1-4 or 1-6, or even 1-8x scopes but I can tell you from owning the PA 1-8x24mm the 1X on it is as true a 1X as it can be.
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Old 01-27-2017, 9:05 AM
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Thanks for all the info guys. Since I do a lot of rifle shooting at the 100 yard range, true 1x and the ability to double as a red dot would be pretty important to my usage.

So after some thought I decided to on the finalists below:

Trijicon Accupoint (for it's ACOG-like always on illumination)
Razor HD

does anyone know, how's the Trijicon's 1x?

Last edited by Rhyyke; 01-27-2017 at 9:09 AM..
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Old 01-27-2017, 9:17 AM
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I have three of the Leupold VX-6 Multigun scopes on my 3gun AR, my large frame AR, and my Ares SCR.

For the price...under a grand if you shop around...and the weight....I have been very happy with them.
I tried a Votex Razor, but the weight and color...why don't they offer it in black?!?!?....it was not for me. YMMV?

Lots of options out there now days.

.
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Old 01-27-2017, 9:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rumble phish View Post
Granted, I've never used $900+ 1-4 or 1-6, or even 1-8x scopes but I can tell you from owning the PA 1-8x24mm the 1X on it is as true a 1X as it can be.
I believe PA is made in the same factory in China as some Vortex scopes and everything I've heard is that they are comparable (less the warranty). I might be wrong here, though.

The upper end Vortex scopes will also have broader field of view and more forgiving eye relief so you can see through them even when the eye is not perfectly aligned with the tube and not at the perfect distance. This is again more important for shooting on the go.

When it comes to paying a premium, it's either because one has enough money so it's not an issue, or there should be some sort of noticeable and significant difference for the *intended application*. In this case, if PA is more like Razor than (lower end) Burris, then it's a great deal. If 1x is true or close enough and it doesn't affect the shooting you personally do, then PA is a great deal too. I don't have a PA so I cannot compare it, but everything I've heard about them was positive.
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Old 01-27-2017, 9:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBamBoo View Post
I have three of the Leupold VX-6 Multigun scopes on my 3gun AR, my large frame AR, and my Ares SCR.

For the price...under a grand if you shop around...and the weight....I have been very happy with them.
I tried a Votex Razor, but the weight and color...why don't they offer it in black?!?!?....it was not for me. YMMV?

Lots of options out there now days.

.
What makes the Leupold "multigun"? Is there something about it that makes it easier to switch between rifles?

Right now my 15x scope is bouncing around, and I have a little note recording the zeros for various rifles.
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Old 01-27-2017, 9:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rumble phish View Post
Granted, I've never used $900+ 1-4 or 1-6, or even 1-8x scopes but I can tell you from owning the PA 1-8x24mm the 1X on it is as true a 1X as it can be.
No it really is not. If your in the Bay area your welcome to look through the Burris XTR-II 1-8 and see the difference on 1X, and at 8X.

IVC has some good points, but honestly, in low light or overcast, there is NO substitute for good glass at high magnification. A larger tube/ objective helps as well. One of the reasons I switched to the Burris is the 34mm tube.


I am not sponsored by Burris and I paid full retail for the 1-8 when I could have gotten another Vortex or Luepold at a hefty discount (or even free). I really, really tried to get a deal on a Kahles or another Swaro but in the end I spent my hard earned cash on the Burris. Highly under-rated and I seriously cannot see how they sell the scope for only $1000 bucks.
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Old 01-27-2017, 9:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Rhyyke View Post
does anyone know, how's the Trijicon's 1x?
I would like to know too. I have several Trijicons, but they are either red dots or much higher magnification models. As far as scopes go in general, I wouldn't hesitate to get another Trijicon.
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Old 01-27-2017, 9:44 AM
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I am not sponsored by Burris and I paid full retail for the 1-8 when I could have gotten another Vortex or Luepold at a hefty discount (or even free).
Just to add to this... The Burris I have is their lower end model so it's not a fair comparison. I was using it just as an example of where the differences are most visible.
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Old 01-27-2017, 9:45 AM
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I believe PA is made in the same factory in China as some Vortex scopes and everything I've heard is that they are comparable (less the warranty). I might be wrong here, though.
IIRC the lower Vortex lines, Atibal, PA, and a couple others are all made in China in the same factories.

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The upper end Vortex scopes will also have broader field of view and more forgiving eye relief so you can see through them even when the eye is not perfectly aligned with the tube and not at the perfect distance. This is again more important for shooting on the go.
The Razor and other premium Vortex lines are made in the Philippines, same as Millet and some others, including Burris who duplicated thier US facility down to the tooling so that they could insure quality and consistency.

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When it comes to paying a premium, it's either because one has enough money so it's not an issue, or there should be some sort of noticeable and significant difference for the *intended application*. In this case, if PA is more like Razor than (lower end) Burris, then it's a great deal. If 1x is true or close enough and it doesn't affect the shooting you personally do, then PA is a great deal too. I don't have a PA so I cannot compare it, but everything I've heard about them was positive.

The $400 PA does not compare to the Burris XTR line 1.5-5 or 1.5-8, nor does it compare to the new XTR 1-8. I had a PA and it is not a bad scope at all, but the glass is lacking some quality etc. It might compare to an old MTAC 1-4, but to me thats a stretch because I remember my MTAC having exceptional glass and being bulletproof. It does compare favorably against the Bushnell AR223 FFP, but the Bushnell is only like $200.

Also do not think spending more on a scope necessarily buys you awesomeness. I had a NF that had erector issues and had to send it in, they kept it for 3 months and I had to pay shipping both ways. My buddy sent in a Burris he bought secondhand that had no illumination. He fully expected to have to pay for the repair. He mailed it to him and they had it done in a couple days and let him pick it up in Greeley when they found out he was in Loveland. No charge. He put it a rifle and the illumination worked for a range trip then went out again. Burris replaced the scope, for free, even though he told them repeatedly he had bought it second or maybe even thirdhand. I broke a Vortex 2.5-10- dropped it pretty hard and something inside was unhappy afterwards- and they paid for the shipping to them and called me two days later saying it was going to take too long to fix and were just sending out a new one. And that is who I would rather deal with, companies that just make it right, without drama.
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Old 01-27-2017, 9:50 AM
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I had the Accupoint 1-6, and its really nice glass. I did not like the reticle I had but otherwise it was a solid scope, maybe a tick overpriced n the current market. If I were to buy one I would pick the fine mildot and be done. I had the thicker crosshairs because thats what they had when I was in the gunshop, and I did not really care for it after I used it.
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Old 01-27-2017, 9:52 AM
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1x6 was not enough for me. I like 3x9's here for 100 yards +.

I have a Vortex 3x9 and it's good. Does anyone make a nice 3x9 that is 9" long? Looking for a smaller version of Vortex.
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Old 01-27-2017, 9:55 AM
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1x6 was not enough for me. I like 3x9's here for 100 yards +.

I have a Vortex 3x9 and it's good. Does anyone make a nice 3x9 that is 9" long? Looking for a smaller version of Vortex.
I shoot the 1-8 out to 600 yards.
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Old 01-27-2017, 9:57 AM
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No it really is not. If your in the Bay area your welcome to look through the Burris XTR-II 1-8 and see the difference on 1X, and at 8X.

IVC has some good points, but honestly, in low light or overcast, there is NO substitute for good glass at high magnification. A larger tube/ objective helps as well. One of the reasons I switched to the Burris is the 34mm tube.


I am not sponsored by Burris and I paid full retail for the 1-8 when I could have gotten another Vortex or Luepold at a hefty discount (or even free). I really, really tried to get a deal on a Kahles or another Swaro but in the end I spent my hard earned cash on the Burris. Highly under-rated and I seriously cannot see how they sell the scope for only $1000 bucks.
I am not doubting your claim on the Burris. Burris makes some great scopes. What I am saying is that the Burris runs $1000 vs. $389 for the PA. If you're not a competitive shooter, or even if you are but are on a budget (like many of us are) the PA is exceptional for the price-to-value ratio.

As for comparisons, I had the Bushnell AR223 FFP and there was no comparison. The PA was hands down the better scope and the ACSS reticle was the icing on the cake. I've also had the Millet DMS 1-4 and 1-6 and sold those to get the PA 1-8x.

The point of my replies in this thread was to give those reading it who don't want to or can't afford to drop a grand on a scope a budget alternative. I'm in no way disparaging Burris or any other higher end manufacturer.
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Old 01-27-2017, 9:59 AM
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1x6 was not enough for me. I like 3x9's here for 100 yards +.

I have a Vortex 3x9 and it's good. Does anyone make a nice 3x9 that is 9" long? Looking for a smaller version of Vortex.
I just picked up the Bushnell AR223 drop zone 3-9x40mm and I am very pleased with it. Granted, it may not be what you're looking for, but for the money ($115 on Amazon) it is a bargain!
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