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#1
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Ctr-02
This is basically a really nice FAB-10/Vulcan right now, but the furthur erosion to the AR 'series' languange is nice. The goal is to expand this weapon with a non-pistol grip one day, pending DOJ approval.
Please Note: 1) Bolted-in 10-round mag. 2) CA DOJ letter on file. 3) It shoots 1/3MOA which is as well as I can hold a rifle. Oh yes 4) I friggin love it
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- Ben Cannon. Chairman, CEO - GPal, Inc.™ CoFounder - GeoVario™, LLC. - the hosting company that brings you Calguns™ Postings are my own, and are not formal positions of any other entity, or legal advice. Last edited by artherd; 11-03-2008 at 9:29 PM.. |
#3
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Takes a tool to detatch the magazine, but magwel is open. With a 'thumb grip' (ie not a pistol grip) I may eventually be able to use my old 30-rounders and put the old detach-mag catch back in. Stay tuned.
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- Ben Cannon. Chairman, CEO - GPal, Inc.™ CoFounder - GeoVario™, LLC. - the hosting company that brings you Calguns™ Postings are my own, and are not formal positions of any other entity, or legal advice. |
#4
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Remember, thumb has to go over the stock just like they do for the Robinson M-96. And oh yeah... if you can pull it off just think... we get to show the DOJ that despite their newest ban, we can once again overcome it with sheer ingenuity!
And oh yeah... you'll put the FAB-10 outta business pretty much. Pin it in for pistol grip and then be able to rearrange for detachable mags, AWESOME! |
#6
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God DAMN! Good going Ben/Artherd, good letter...
Hmmm, some interesting wording in that letter... Quote:
The importance of this goes quite beyond trying to make some kinda gripless AR. "Near future"? This wording suggests possibly there's an upcoming administrative attempt to update the Harrott-inspired DOJ Roster of AR15 and AK Series Weapons. But these could also just be cautionary CYA weasel words too - or there could be some legislative stuff in committee we haven't heard of (but I doubt this latter case). There is a dim-bright side to all of this, however: ....if AR/AK receivers that aren't declared as named/Type II AWs now (like the CTR02, a couple of other off-brand AR receivers, and some new US-made AK-style stamped receivers) get added to the list for 'functional identicality', these will become full-fledged CA AWs upon that declaration. While registration will be required after 90? days, once it's declared as an AW you can add evil features galore (detachable magwell w/pistol grip, flash hider, folder stock, etc. etc.) I do not believe that any retroactive 'ban' would fall in place kinda like the early '90s SKS fiasco: that is, a situation where a receiver CTR02 is allowed now, but then added to DOJ Roster list - but then also not allowed to be registered as AW. I believe once a gun/receiver is added to the list and promulgated as an AW, that triggers a registration period to come into compliance (register it, surrender it, move it/sell it out of state, etc.) I also do not know whether, in this 'update', they'd also try to clean up some other things like FAL & HK clone receivers (i.e., merging a receiver that could form a Type III gun back into Type I category). We've really just addressed Harrott issues here. Non-named, non-AR/AK receivers are still unbanned -which is why CaliFALs are allowed. I think a 'substantially different' receiver - like the FAB10 - will not be banned or declared as an AW. The Vulcan receiver is in more questionable territory, but of course if Vulcan gets 'declared' as an AW, you can rip out the affixed mag I will have to read more deeply on how items are declared AWs, and procedures for adding to Harrott list. For those of us with a bit of pocket change to spare, having a willing FFL, and wanting another AW and willing to gamble that these might be declared as AWs, it might behoove us to quietly do as Ben/Artherd did, and acquire (with DOJ permission) a couple of the off-list AR and AK receivers out there. I'd be buying them not to make Californicated guns, but gambling they get declared AWs eventually and thus I get a coupla new AWs. [But there's no guarantee of this, the status quo could well be maintained and I could very well end up with fairly useless chunks of metal (at least to me - I have no use for any 'Californiaized' AW.] (But glad I kept a dozen AK hicap mags!) Bill Wiese San Jose Last edited by bwiese; 11-26-2005 at 12:12 PM.. |
#7
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Hi Bill, thanks for the kind words, coming from you I take as quite a compliment. Forgive me for not spilling the beans untill it was all said and done, but I wanted to make sure I was not blowing smoke up anyone's skirt.
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Here's why I think they were bluffing: One of the FFLs was all set, then they called the DOJ just to verify. The agent who answered the phone interrupted my FFL, saying "I KNOW OF THE LETTER! Thing is, once we see it DROS'd, we're going to ban it immediately*, and then come right after you for posession of an AW in inventory withought an AW permit!" *= Note that this is not possible for two reasons 1) CPC 12276.5 spells out exactly how the DOJ may 'ban' a series AW. They may issue only a temporary suspension of the sale/transfer, and then within 30 days must hold a Supior Court hearing in a populace county where the TRIAL COURT determines AW status. During that 30 day period the FFL would be able to send the weapon back out of state even if they lacked a CA AW permit. 2) Make/Model information is not included in DROS for longguns at all, so they will never know what's happening (unless they flagged my name and looked at my next purchase. Just to fsck with them I bought a shotgun Quote:
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__________________
- Ben Cannon. Chairman, CEO - GPal, Inc.™ CoFounder - GeoVario™, LLC. - the hosting company that brings you Calguns™ Postings are my own, and are not formal positions of any other entity, or legal advice. |
#8
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This is great news!
Does mean that one could theoretically get any (stripped) lower receiver not on the list (if there is a brave enough FFL in his or her area) and pin a mag in it (or have a mag pinned in it)? I do forsee DoJ trying to cover their asses here and adding pretty much every receiver to the list. In some ways that is a good thing though. |
#9
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He may possibly have been mistakenly thinking the intent was to acquire a receiver legitmately then convert it to an AW, and that the dealer would have an AW on his shelf at moment of bust. But I think you were clear that this would never be in Type III AW form. And "Banning" it will take procedural/admin/signoff work and is way beyond the skill or pay grade/authority level of that agent. Quote:
The DOJ may not have updated this list out of sheer bureucratic inertia. And probably not a lot of Gun List readers there. Quote:
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Bill Wiese San Jose |
#10
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__________________
- Ben Cannon. Chairman, CEO - GPal, Inc.™ CoFounder - GeoVario™, LLC. - the hosting company that brings you Calguns™ Postings are my own, and are not formal positions of any other entity, or legal advice. |
#11
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So this would be good new for my KT-10 build right. KT-10 is what KT Ordnance calls their 80% "AR-10" lower. As long as the mag is pinned and its not on the list its ok and If it does make the list I can unpin the mag.
Last edited by bu-bye; 11-17-2005 at 11:00 AM.. |
#12
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I would perhaps be a bit careful with homebuilt lowers, as opposed to acquiring an off-list limited production commercial lower like Artherd did. [If you got a letter from DOJ allowing this, though, go for it. Your letter to DOJ should be addressed to same people as artherd's and be phrased similarly.] The problem here is that a key basic premise of Harrott v. Kings County holds that ARs/AKs had to be specifcally declared/named & promulgated (by being listed on DOJ Roster of AR15 and AK Series Weapons), by name, mfgr, model, etc. in order to be banned AWs. If not on this Roster, the the receivers are apparently OK providing no SB23 evil features attached. Until I saw the DOJ response to Artherd's request, I'd always believed Harrott to not offer much protection. But this seems to be OK. The problem w/homebrew receivers is that it might well be regarded by a court as impossible and impracticable for DOJ to specifically list details of every homebrew AR/AK receiver - esp as Harrott mandates it has to be listed on DOJ's Roster by name/mfgr/model, etc. Since your receiver would be something like "Jim Bob's Receiver #2", there thus could be a reasonable chance that Harrott protections would not carry over to homebrew receivers. This is a decision that would, it seem to me, be a matter of law and be made by a judge. This would then make these homebrew receivers fully subject to prior Kasler decision, which put all ARs and AKs back into Type I category regardless of attached evil features - and under Kasler, if it looks/works like an AR, it is an AR. Bill Wiese San Jose Last edited by bwiese; 11-26-2005 at 12:15 PM.. |
#17
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I would *think* that in order to remain consistant in law, that the Make and Model of the KT-10 would be "Bu-bye" and "My Rifle2005" respectively, and that to BAN them under CURRENT statutes, the DOJ would have to place an injunction, hold and win a Supior Court hearing, and then promologate the make/model in a list. Yes for each and every homebuilder. But this is reaching way way way far, a court may not agree, and the DOJ themselves should be consulted.
__________________
- Ben Cannon. Chairman, CEO - GPal, Inc.™ CoFounder - GeoVario™, LLC. - the hosting company that brings you Calguns™ Postings are my own, and are not formal positions of any other entity, or legal advice. Last edited by artherd; 04-18-2010 at 1:55 PM.. |
#18
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Artherd/Ben...
Change your sigline, Tim Riegert's not at DOJ anymore. Apparently it's Alison Merilees now, perhaps just ad interim. Quote:
I really, really think if you were popped for AW possesion of a homebuilt AR that there's a fair chance Harrott v Kings County does not offer you protection even though your gun is 'off-list'. A judge could rule as a matter of law that there's no way the DOJ Roster mandated by Harrott could conceivably be practical for homebuilts, and no way it could be created to ban homebuilts due to banning criteria is make and model, and that this was an attempt to bypass legislative intent - that is, ban ARs & AKs. The fact that Harrott allows some oddball mfgrd AR receivers to exist is a side effect and not central to the fact that the List could _never_ be set up for homebuilts by name/model/etc. And if Harrott doesn't hold for an AR/AK, then Kasler takes over: it'd be an AR since it "walks like a duck and talks like a duck" and, since unregistered, you'd be guilty of illegal AW possession. Bill Wiese San Jose |
#20
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Great job Ben!! That is one sweeeeet looking rifle - esp with the ACOG setup. I'm gonna try damn hard to get one of those. Major props.
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Barrett 82a1, Serbu BFG-50, M1A Socom, SU-16 CA, Benelli M4 Super 90, Glock 22, Sig 226, Stag-15, HK p7m8 |
#21
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A footnote, this was my SECOND Certified Letter to the DOJ regarding this issue! The first time all I got in responce was a photocopy of CPC 12276, which may have been tactic admission I was correct, but not nearly enough to act on. This time I recived a solid reply with a re-worded letter. This whole thing has been nearly 2 years in the making (albit off and on.) Attached is my origional letter for reference. Feel free to adapt the format though I am no great author. Page 1 of 2 Page 2 of 2
__________________
- Ben Cannon. Chairman, CEO - GPal, Inc.™ CoFounder - GeoVario™, LLC. - the hosting company that brings you Calguns™ Postings are my own, and are not formal positions of any other entity, or legal advice. |
#22
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#23
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Ha! What a blast from the past. Thanks for this forum Kes!
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TWO WEEKS! |
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