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Long Distance Shooting Discuss tools, techniques, tips and theories of long distance shooting

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  #1  
Old 06-30-2018, 5:56 PM
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Default Recommend LR shooting destination training

Since there's lots of folks on CG who've forgotten more about this I know I currently know I thought this might be the right place to ask.

I'm a long time tactical shooter who, as I've gotten older and more grey took up LR shooting. I've been doing this for a couple of years now. Of course I'm still pretty new to this and have a lot to learn. I'm looking for some training from someone skilled at doing training. Some people are great at something, but suck at teaching it. Some folks are competent at things but are excellent instructors. I'm looking for the latter more than the former.

I'm also a city person. So I'm looking to get out into some beautiful country. Hills, Mountains, Lakes, not the desert. I hate the desert. I'm looking to take a week or more's vacation and go someplace beautiful and very important here, this is my holiday time, so this needs to happen at a time of year it'll be nice to be there. Spring or Fall someplace beautiful.

I have a few specifics. I have to be able to use my own weapon, a semi-auto 338 LM. I'd really like to be able to train shooting beyond 1000 yards. This is beyond the 1000 yard range at Sac Valley which is the best I can do quasi-locally. I've learned enough to understand true LR shooting is, like many such precise physical skills, a sort of meditation. You can still be a little sloppy at 600 or 800 yards. Not so much at 1200 or 1500 yards. Who teaches this well?

I've done a bunch web research on numerous occasions. There seem to be a lot of places where you use their bolt guns. I see no point in training on someone else's weapon. Some places you have to sit at a bench. May god/buddha/the great pumpkin forbid I ever really need to use this weapon. But if I do, I won't be sitting at a bench. I'd prefer to be able to shoot off of my tripod. I'll also train prone. I'm not so old that I can't get prone and get back up fifty times a day for a several days in a row if I have to.

I found one place on Montana that looked great! They had a level 1 & 2 class back to back I could do in a week! But 300 WM is the largest caliber they allow. I got all excited when I found that, then I saw that little disclaimer about 300WM max. In my best Crusty the clown voice; "aaaahhhhh, crap!"

But as much time as I've spent looking I cannot seem to find something quite what I'm looking for. Then, it occurred to me, lightbulb appears above my head; 'hey ask the CG folks. I'll bet someone there knows just the thing!'

As a for instance, I'd like to go to Montana, Wyoming, or Idaho in September-October or maybe April-May. I'd prefer to stay in the West. I rather not fly all the way to the East Coast but for the right thing I will definitely do it. So long as I can legally bring my weapon there. This is why I'm thinking that many Eastern States, may now be a problem.

I also hate the heat and humidity. I'll do cold before humidity. I could do Wyoming or Montana in October or early November. But I do not want to go to Texas, Virginia or Arizona in July or August for instance. I could go to North Carolina in April-May, but not August or January.

I'm not a wealthy guy. But because I am am also currently a single guy, I can use my holiday time for such endeavors. I'm willing to pay decent money to travel somewhere beautiful to be for quality training.

For me, and I bet at least a few reading this, this sounds like a great holiday!

I also just started a new job. So timing wise this is likely a next Spring or later thing in order to budget and work out the logistics. Lastly, like many of my fellow CG'ers, I also cannot travel with this weapon until I get my BBAW registration letter from Cal DOJ. My app is pending, but who knows how long that may take?

Recommendations? Help me plan a holiday 9-15 months from now.

Last edited by sfarchitect; 06-30-2018 at 6:24 PM..
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Old 06-30-2018, 6:53 PM
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I'm going to sound like a real dick here, Fair warning

All I'm hearing is a bunch of excuses on why you can't do what you want to do and no real motivation to do it.

Now that said .338 LM is easy. but you need to get your head out of your arse and embrace what you got and plan accordingly. The desert is what it is and you need to adjust to it. that means getting up early and being on the firing line before the sun comes up. Set your steel at range at dawn and be home before it gets above 90. You shoot in Sac and live in frisco, you know humidity and heat don't hand me that crap.

All I can say is stop looking to pay for a facility and start looking for a long range coach and BLM land to shoot on. I know of more places in my area to shoot as far as you can see, There are a few here that shoot 2000 meters and beyond. So again all i'm hearing is "I want an indoor air conditioned 2000 meter range with a vending machine". You also have the northern california unlimited shooters you need to get in contact with. these guys start at 2000 meters.

As to your weapon, if it's AR based meaning you can split the top from the bottom. travel with it like that, there is a specific exemption when split.

As to the east coast, Good luck, there are no real places to shoot LR in the mid west or east coast. Caliber restrictions will be high but it won't be your weapon that causes the issue it will be trying to find something that has 300+ yards, most places don't even have that.

You ever find your way down this way, (San Diego) I'm sure i could take a day or two off and spot for you. I've rang steel at 1500 meters with a .408 CT I've also drilled a paper silhouette at 1275 meters with my .308 Yeah I know places to shoot. no entry fee's, just costs time and ammo. I shoot F class so I have all the support gear needed for training and conducting a long range evolution.
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Old 07-01-2018, 7:05 AM
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If your looking for a spot to train for long range shooting trips,look at Sac Valley Shooting Center.The facility has a 1000yd range with monthly matches on the 2nd weekend of every month.The schedule does change so it is not always the same.
If you choose to show up ,its a nice place to see different equipment and world class shooters at there best.
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Old 07-01-2018, 7:59 AM
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Just go to Sac Valley or an URSA event. You will learn more from them in a couple matches than running around the country having an instructor telling you how great your doing. Nothing beats seeing how others do it in real time.
If you want to shoot over 1500 yards dump the tripod. You will eventually have to get rid of the semi auto to hit 2K consistently.
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Old 07-01-2018, 9:45 AM
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Funny how people just want to take classes for some obscure "longer range" shooting, but are never interested in just trying out a Midrange or even a Longrange match for learning or even sharpening their skills....

Last edited by smoothy8500; 07-01-2018 at 1:36 PM..
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Old 07-01-2018, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by sfarchitect View Post
So I'm looking to get out into some beautiful country. Hills, Mountains, Lakes, not the desert. I hate the desert. I'm looking to take a week or more's vacation and go someplace beautiful and very important here, this is my holiday time, so this needs to happen at a time of year it'll be nice to be there. Spring or Fall someplace beautiful.

I have a few specifics. I have to be able to use my own weapon, a semi-auto 338 LM. I'd really like to be able to train shooting beyond 1000 yards. This is beyond the 1000 yard range at Sac Valley which is the best I can do quasi-locally. I've learned enough to understand true LR shooting is, like many such precise physical skills, a sort of meditation. You can still be a little sloppy at 600 or 800 yards. Not so much at 1200 or 1500 yards. Who teaches this well?
If you want to learn how to shoot, you have to put in the time learning how to shoot. That is not limited to learning how your rifle and ammo operates but also teaching your body how to be comfortable (that's right, you may have to get in shape!) in a hot, cold, humid environment. You have to practice a lot since this is not a vacation or a wilderness adventure at jurrasic park.

If you think that you can be sloppy at 600 and 800 because the "distance" ain't worth your time then you are not going to learn how to shoot because it ain't about the distance - it's about the skill that you earn and learn and how you apply that mid, long, and longer "distances."
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Old 07-02-2018, 9:28 AM
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All this being said, if you still want to travel and train I have heard the Desert Tech range in Utah has lots of options
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Old 07-02-2018, 6:41 PM
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OK guys, First of all thank you to those who offer useful input. That is most welcome.

Now in way of explanation to those CG'ers who just seem to want to crap on anything anyone else says.

I can shoot 600 yards at Sac Valley. I've been to a couple of events at the 1000 yard range there. IN fact I got a live round stuck in the chamber of this weapon. Rookie reloader getting schooled mistake #27 right. THere's a whole CG thread on that for those who might be interested.

This is not an AR platform weapon. It does not come apart into upper & lower.

I never said any distance "ain't worth my time". I can shoot 600 yards with the 77Gr bullets in the AR. I had already written a short story so I left this part out. My shooting guru where I grew up was retired IDF. The Israelis have a very specific way of shooting. You stand with your body @ 45 degrees WRT the weapon. This works great with an essentially recoiless AR. I have no 308's but I expect it could be made to work with a 308 out to a reasonable distance. But that does not work once you get into a medium bore weapon like this. Even prone the recoil pushes you around such that keeping your body @ 45 degrees WRT the weapon bore does not work.

Thanks Hoffer, I looked into the Desert Tech range. I was originally looking at their DTA SRS when this entire mania started. The CA decided to outlaw semis and I ended up buying a semi. As I understand it you can only take their classes with their weapons. But I'll check again. Utah in the winter might be just the thing. I could rent a car and drive too. Make a road trip out of it. I have a couple shooting buddies I met through CG who might be into it too. Fine idea.

Yes kcstott, you're right, you did sound like a complete dick. However you've also offered a sufficient quality of useful input to myself in other threads and many others other that you've shown you have some command of what you're talking about sir. So I'm happy to overlook that. I made no excuses sir. I simply stated the facts of what I am, and am not willing to spend my money and use my holiday time on. I never said I was looking for some air conditioned place to train. Merely that I do not enjoy hot and/or humid conditions, i.e. the desert, and am not willing to use my money and holiday time to travel to such conditions. Your offer, after you finished crapping on what I said was none the less very kind and greatly appreciated. Thank you sir. I'm an architect. I suspect I'd get along with a 'toolmaker extraordinaire' just fine.

I've spent some time working on learning to do this correctly. As is so often the case in life however, a little instruction from someone who's forgotten more about this than I currently know might go a long ways. It can also prevent you from developing bad habits early on and sort of accelerate a steep learning curve.

I will keep looking too. I just thought someone here might just know just the thing.

Being a single guy right now, I thought I could make a holiday of it and go somewhere beautiful for a week or two and do some training.

Last edited by sfarchitect; 07-02-2018 at 6:54 PM..
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Old 07-02-2018, 6:53 PM
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I understand the vacation/training aspect

You could check out Lowlight(Frank) on Snipers hide... I think he does training down south.
Lots of stuff in Texas too.

Definitely check out an URSA match up near Clear Lake. Friendly bunch of shooters. It's an eye opener when it takes 8-9 seconds to hear the gong after the shot breaks.

Last edited by Hoffer; 07-02-2018 at 7:00 PM..
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Old 07-02-2018, 8:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
Funny how people just want to take classes for some obscure "longer range" shooting, but are never interested in just trying out a Midrange or even a Longrange match for learning or even sharpening their skills....

Shooting well requires focus, sustained effort, and an ability to accept the reality of ones abilities.

Better to skip all that and just go really long, ya'know because nobody knows whats going on out there anyways.
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Old 07-02-2018, 10:57 PM
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Have you looked at the NRA Whittington center, I know nothing about their courses. It is in New Mexico but doesn't look to desert-y.

http://nrawc.goemerchant-stores.com/...ge-I_p_90.html
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Old 07-03-2018, 4:21 AM
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I have looked at the trainings Sniper's hide offers. If I'm keeping this all straight in my mind now, I think he's offering one up North next year that is an option. Thank you for the recommendation sir.

Gentlemen, I'm a many year tactical shooter. 2107 was due to some upheaval in my personal life about half of this but in 2016 just in trainings, I put 9K rounds of 9 through one of my pistols, 2.5-2.7K rounds through an AR (2015 was about exactly the opposite ratio?) and about 1.2K rounds of 12 gauge. (Yeah I keep a spreadsheet by weapon but not load) I volunteer as an RO. I occasionally work part time as an instructor. I know the basics fellas.

(This is also why I HAD to take up reloading. But that is not the conversation we're having right now)

I'm also old enough that rolling in gravel in 100 degree heat and falling out of car windows in body armor is not as much fun as it used to be for me. So I've taken up LR shooting

But I've never really done any sort of LR training. That, is why I started this thread. So please gentlemen, the next person that presumes to lecture me about 'needing to learn the basics' needs to actually shoot at least half as much as I do OK. Useful input is most welcome.

Last edited by sfarchitect; 07-03-2018 at 4:51 AM..
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Old 07-03-2018, 4:43 AM
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You may end up just having to accept the desert.

Much of Montana, Wyoming, and Utah are desert BTW, so those aren't automatically going to work for you.

Good luck.

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Old 07-03-2018, 6:47 AM
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I can shoot 600 yards at Sac Valley. I've been to a couple of events at the 1000 yard range there.
Well, what did you get out of that class and those matches? And more importantly, why only a couple?

I remember your thread on the stuck round due to the FL resize issue. I also understand your point that participating in matches may give you experience, but that a lack of coaching could reinforce bad habits that are hard to break later.

Despite those concerns, there are loads of highly accomplished shooters at every club and MR/LR match who are more than willing to give pointers as they are spotting/scoring for the newer shooters looking to learn and/or improve. Immediate feedback on the target, a constant range that you can document performance and compare with prior notes on wind, temp, and weather.

That was the intent of my commentary-it wasn't necessarily aimed at crapping on you in particular.

Last edited by smoothy8500; 07-03-2018 at 9:43 AM..
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Old 07-03-2018, 7:36 AM
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Now in way of explanation to those CG'ers who just seem to want to crap on anything anyone else says.
Prima Facie always plays a game be it a face to face or internet/forum discussion. Disconnect/misunderstanding always happens.
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Old 07-03-2018, 10:29 AM
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I have looked at the trainings Sniper's hide offers. If I'm keeping this all straight in my mind now, I think he's offering one up North next year that is an option. Thank you for the recommendation sir.

Gentlemen, I'm a many year tactical shooter. 2107 was due to some upheaval in my personal life about half of this but in 2016 just in trainings, I put 9K rounds of 9 through one of my pistols, 2.5-2.7K rounds through an AR (2015 was about exactly the opposite ratio?) and about 1.2K rounds of 12 gauge. (Yeah I keep a spreadsheet by weapon but not load) I volunteer as an RO. I occasionally work part time as an instructor. I know the basics fellas.

(This is also why I HAD to take up reloading. But that is not the conversation we're having right now)

I'm also old enough that rolling in gravel in 100 degree heat and falling out of car windows in body armor is not as much fun as it used to be for me. So I've taken up LR shooting

But I've never really done any sort of LR training. That, is why I started this thread. So please gentlemen, the next person that presumes to lecture me about 'needing to learn the basics' needs to actually shoot at least half as much as I do OK. Useful input is most welcome.

What do you consider Long range, and what distance would you like to shoot at? What type of rifle do you want to shoot, and how do you want to support the rifle.... sling, bipod, front rest? What type of cartridge would you like to shoot? there are lots of things that need to be taken into consideration when asking about training for long range. My suggestion would be to be more specific if you are able, otherwise seeking answers to these questions is a good place to start.

Do some research on the different types of rifle shooting, high power and F-class are where most guys shoot from mid range (600 yards) to long range (1000 yards) and there is also Palma shooting. Lots of good info on accurate shooter, and more relevant than snipers hide.

You may want to shoot out to longer distances without competing, still it is a good idea to hang with some match shooters and pick up some good habits for equipment, position, loading, wind reading, all stuff you want to be competent at to shoot well over long distances when in the field, or on a surveyed range, even if match shooting is not your cup of tea, and of course the better your basics, and the more you practice, the better chance you have of improving and being satisfied with yourself regardless.
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Last edited by bridgeport; 07-03-2018 at 10:40 AM..
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Old 07-03-2018, 2:46 PM
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Perhaps this might be interesting to you:

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/498d9...84be2969a0.pdf
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Old 07-03-2018, 7:21 PM
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Have you looked at the NRA Whittington center, I know nothing about their courses. It is in New Mexico but doesn't look to desert-y.
Barrett runs classes for .50 BMG rifles there. They can be rented. Just saying.

LMS Defense runs some long-range rifle classes on a site south of Silicon Valley. I think it's very pretty, and the courses are very good, in my opinion.
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Old 07-03-2018, 8:44 PM
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Barrett runs classes for .50 BMG rifles there. They can be rented. Just saying.

LMS Defense runs some long-range rifle classes on a site south of Silicon Valley. I think it's very pretty, and the courses are very good, in my opinion.
Never heard of them.

Looks like a good venue and close
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Old 07-04-2018, 2:29 PM
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No one enjoys the hot humid conditions to find a location suitable to shoot beyond 1000 meters. It’s something we manage. It’s a condition to deal with. And it’s the price you pay for the location. Hence leaving at 4am to be on deck before sunrise and home before lunch.

Sorry man but you are just going to have to make a decision. How bad do you want to shoot?
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Old 07-04-2018, 10:48 PM
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Yeah kcstott, sadly that seems to be the case.

To Bridgeport, I did put most of the specifics on the first post in the thread. I am in the process of working up the load.

NorCalTodd that Core course also looks great! But it'll require taking nearly a week off not long after I've started a new job. Maybe next year though. Thank you sir. I've bookmarked the 1milrt.com URL.

To Smoothy, yes sir I did, what last year was a two day Mid and then Long Range clinic put on by NCPPRC. I shot the mid range with an AR and then got about ten shots into the second day's LR clinic with this weapon when I got that live round jammed in the chamber. I've definitely had better days.

Thank you to both 'Thoughts' and another CGer who PM'd me so I will not mention names. I followed both of your recommendations and signed up for the three day thing LMS does taught by Dan Flowers in Sacramento. I presume @ Sac Valley but it didn't say? But its close enough that I couldn't NOT do that. Seems like just the thing I was looking for. Its relatively local. I can rent a car, drive and only take one day off from my new job.

They offer a one day 'Precision Rifle Fundamentals' followed by a two day 'Precision Rifle 1' class. Its the weekend before Thanksgiving which is a problem for me because I host TG Dinner, but I just could not pass that up! Thank you for the heads up on that!

Now I need to shoot this ladder I have loaded and finish working up this load! I need to get +200 rounds loaded up for that occasion.

Of course the barrel cooler crowd is going to look askance at me when I put the semi-auto on the counter. But I'm OK with that. Christ I better get my friggin' registration letter prior to that or I'm screwed.

Thanks guys! This, to me, is what makes CG an amazing resource. Much appreciated gentlemen.

Last edited by sfarchitect; 07-04-2018 at 11:16 PM..
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Old 07-05-2018, 12:51 PM
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Those LMS Defense courses are at the Sacramento Valley Shooting Center this fall, but they also have classes at a ranch reasonably close to Hollister at times, or they have in the past, at least. Availability varies, I guess.
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Old 07-10-2018, 3:23 PM
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FYI, southern Utah in the winter is O-my-gawd cold. Like below zero cold. Even in the desert.
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:15 PM
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I can do cold if I had to. But not heat and humidity. Sacramento in November could be brick by Cali standards, but not even near that kind of cold.
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Old 07-12-2018, 3:31 AM
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It's a shame you have such distaste for the desert. From November through April it can get very cold. I shoot most of my long distance those months and it is typically no warmer than 70f and usually around 50. You can set your watch to the wind at my range so from 5am until 10am it is a consistent left to right below 7mph and after 10 it bumps up to 15mph. I can shoot at far as 2 miles based on recent measurements but the max I have done is 1 mile. I have been getting more friends coming out that range from rookies to experienced shooters with everything up to 50bmg and several with 338lm and wild cats based off 338lm.

McMillan in Phoenix has a class on thier private range. They let you use your own gun but if yours falls apart they have spares. It is also in the desrt though so not going to be good for you based on your requirements.

Long range is not so difficult. The biggest hurdle I've seen is just learning how to dial a scope based on spotters feedback or your own. My kid has been ahooting past 1200 yards for a year now and has no formal instruction. This winter I will get him training but it is not required as he so far is sub 2 moa at 1 mile at 12 years old. I just need to work with him on patience to get it down to sub moa.

Makes little sense to be in the cold to train. Locking up your fingers, fogging/icing glass, lying on frozen ground all seem horrible to me but Ive only lived in the cold for 26 years so maybe I dont have enough time. I prefer 50-70f so I shoot in the desert.
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Old 07-12-2018, 4:22 AM
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Google: “extreme long range shooting class”

Gunsite shoots from 1,000 to 2,000 meters. Sept 2018, Aril 2019 and Sept 2019–weather should be good in those months. Take their 270 class while there.

https://www.gunsite.com/classes/extr...g-range-class/
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Last edited by tomrkba; 07-12-2018 at 4:25 AM..
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  #27  
Old 07-12-2018, 11:16 AM
sigstroker sigstroker is offline
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One of the problems with gunsite classes is many have a pre-requisite class. Then some of those have a pre-requisite class. So you're then looking at double or triple the cost and time.
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Old 07-12-2018, 2:17 PM
ELR Researcher ELR Researcher is offline
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sfarchitect - audiophil2 is absolutely correct about temps in the desert during many months of the year - and very low humidity.

I've compiled a listing of training facilities where "students" shoot out to at least 1000 yards, see http://www.elr-resources.com/page17.html While I have tried to scrub the list to avoid cartridge limitations (min 338 LM) there may be limitations that don't show up until you actually contact the company. Watch particularly for prerequisite classes. Many may have no issue about you using your own rifle, even semi-auto, though you can virtually guaranteed they will be talking/instructing bolt gun only. Since most trainers are very safety focused (liability adverse), you may well get into issues where you will be required to load single shot - not automatically chamber another round. Ask so you are prepared (like practicing in advance).

BTW, I've found 6 companies that offer .338 LM semis, which rifle do you have?
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Old 07-14-2018, 4:36 PM
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Thank you for those resources ELR Researcher. I knew had seen that page somewhere before!

Hi Phil, I've bought a couple of things from you through the years. I appreciate the insight. I could do the desert at 50-70 degrees. I'm a San Franciscan. I melt above eighty degrees. Never mind the humidity. I'm just past the point in life where I will suffer to train. Happy to spend good money to travel and train. But not of its gonna' be f'in miserable hot/humid.
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Old 07-15-2018, 7:33 PM
audiophil2 audiophil2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfarchitect View Post
Thank you for those resources ELR Researcher. I knew had seen that page somewhere before!

Hi Phil, I've bought a couple of things from you through the years. I appreciate the insight. I could do the desert at 50-70 degrees. I'm a San Franciscan. I melt above eighty degrees. Never mind the humidity. I'm just past the point in life where I will suffer to train. Happy to spend good money to travel and train. But not of its gonna' be f'in miserable hot/humid.
Im from Chicago and lived in sf for 7 years before i moved here. your comfort level will be from december until march out here. i suggest during spring training if you like baseball. if you want to just get the fundamentals and spotting help from me you are welcome to come out here. i will charge just for my time and gas. if you decide long range is what you like then you can come back and spend time with mcmillan. those guys are excellent and very easy to work with. you will greatly benefit doing some cheap long range with me to get the basics down so you can focus more on technique with them.

from dec thru march it is low 20s and high 70s but dont tell anyone else. i want everyone to think its 120 all year round.
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