Poor Results after Tumbling

[TexasJackKin]

When I've used more soap (ArmorAll) it comes out looking like shaving cream, making separating the pins a bit more challenging. I've got the Franklin Arsenal Rotary Tumbler, or F.A.R.T. and have only done 10 or 12 loads. I'm using the small pins that came with it, and should probably buy some of Stilly's "super pins" but haven't done that yet.

It's odd, sometime they come out looking like gold, and other times looking like your bad batch, ah, the joys of chemistry, I can see Randall's point.

[Nacinator]

Too much Lanlonin in your home made lube. I did a 4oz bottle of Lanlonin to 3 8oz bottles of HEET red in 30oz ZEP spray bottle. Had to switch to 2oz Lanlonin to 3 bottles of HEET. 30 oz of spray lube for $20.00 beats $8.00 for a 8oz bottle

[steelholder]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

I have two of the big Dillon tumblers.
I have found none better.

Is that the cv 500? Have you found that cleans better than the frankford? Or does it hold more brass?

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by steelholder

Is that the cv 500? Have you found that cleans better than the frankford? Or does it hold more brass?

The 500 is the small Dillon.
I have the 2001's.
They hold something like 750 pieces of 223 brass or 1500 9mm's.
The bowl is super thick and it has a huge USA made motor.
Due to the thicker bowl and all the extra weight it is FAR quieter than any of the little cheap tumblers.

[buruli]

I'm a chemist and wet tumble brass all the time. I've had this same issue and solved it -- so think I can shed some light on the chemistry of what is actually going on and why we see variability from batch to batch.. The problem we sometimes see is our cases are physically "clean" from the soap and the mechanical abrasion, of the pins, but don't have the shine. This is because your citric acid has been neutralized by contaminants during your initial cleaning. The pH is now too high to give you a bright shine in a wet tumbler. The brass is clean but not shiny. If you were to check the pH of the solution you poured off your dark colored batch of brass, you would see it has increased. Here is what to do if you see they aren't looking like gold after the first tumble--- Pour off the water. Add fresh warm water and more lemi shine or other pH lowering agent. I use two .45 cases full to a Franklin tumbler load. No need to add more soap . . .no surfactant is needed since the brass is physically clean, but not shiny. Retumble - it won't take very long. Brass will come out like gold. The reason we see variability from batch to batch is that the pH buffering capacity of each lot off brass is different. i.e. sometimes the citric acid gets neutralized on the first tumble, sometimes it doesn't depending on the size of the load, how dirty the brass is, and other variables.

[TexasJackKin]

Originally Posted by buruli

I'm a chemist and wet tumble brass all the time. I've had this same issue and solved it -- so think I can shed some light on the chemistry of what is actually going on and why we see variability from batch to batch.. The problem we sometimes see is our cases are physically "clean" from the soap and the mechanical abrasion, of the pins, but don't have the shine. This is because your citric acid has been neutralized by contaminants during your initial cleaning. The pH is now too high to give you a bright shine in a wet tumbler. The brass is clean but not shiny. If you were to check the pH of the solution you poured off your dark colored batch of brass, you would see it has increased. Here is what to do if you see they aren't looking like gold after the first tumble--- Pour off the water. Add fresh warm water and more lemi shine or other pH lowering agent. I use two .45 cases full to a Franklin tumbler load. No need to add more soap . . .no surfactant is needed since the brass is physically clean, but not shiny. Retumble - it won't take very long. Brass will come out like gold. The reason we see variability from batch to batch is that the pH buffering capacity of each lot off brass is different. i.e. sometimes the citric acid gets neutralized on the first tumble, sometimes it doesn't depending on the size of the load, how dirty the brass is, and other variables.

That's been my suspicion, when I've had ugly brass come out, I've done a Lemi Shine only tumble for like 10 minuets with good results. I think I like the ArmorAll for the wax factor, but haven't really proven it yet.

[Mayor McRifle]

Originally Posted by buruli

I'm a chemist and wet tumble brass all the time. I've had this same issue and solved it -- so think I can shed some light on the chemistry of what is actually going on and why we see variability from batch to batch.. The problem we sometimes see is our cases are physically "clean" from the soap and the mechanical abrasion, of the pins, but don't have the shine. This is because your citric acid has been neutralized by contaminants during your initial cleaning. The pH is now too high to give you a bright shine in a wet tumbler. The brass is clean but not shiny. If you were to check the pH of the solution you poured off your dark colored batch of brass, you would see it has increased. Here is what to do if you see they aren't looking like gold after the first tumble--- Pour off the water. Add fresh warm water and more lemi shine or other pH lowering agent. I use two .45 cases full to a Franklin tumbler load. No need to add more soap . . .no surfactant is needed since the brass is physically clean, but not shiny. Retumble - it won't take very long. Brass will come out like gold. The reason we see variability from batch to batch is that the pH buffering capacity of each lot off brass is different. i.e. sometimes the citric acid gets neutralized on the first tumble, sometimes it doesn't depending on the size of the load, how dirty the brass is, and other variables.

Thank you for this very helpful information.

[SixPointEight]

Originally Posted by Andy9161

Yup, same brass. No LS this batch. Just a TON on soap.

I already thought I was using a lot of soap.

How much is a "lot" of soap to you? Because the OP you said a small squirt of dish soap.

I use a Thumlers Model B, holds about 1 gallon of water + brass + pins. I use a full tablespoon of soap. You should have sudsy water after tumbling, and it should take a couple of rinses to get it all clean. If you don't have this, use more soap! As for Lemishine, 1/4 TSP or about a 45 casing full should do the trick.

I use warm water, though sometimes I put warm water in the tumbler, then it sits in the garage for several hours before I start tumbling. I don't think the water temperature has a huge bearing on anything. Using these steps I've never gotten anything less than golden brass, except one time I ran some nickel cases for 6 hours. They started to turn black, but there wasn't any residue on them. Still don't know what happened. Nickel cases now get 2 hours

[peter95]

I use cold water with no issues. Usually dish washing soap and a little bit of lemishine.

[NorCalFocus]

Originally Posted by steelholder

Can you recommend a good tumbler along with media for a noob reloader? There are lots out there, how do you feel abt the harbor freight ultra sonic cleaner?

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/414369/

When you wear out the corn that comes with the kit, look for walnut bird cage litter from the local pet store.
Then get some Nu-Finish liquid car wax (in the orange bottle).
Use about a tablespoon in each tumbler load.
Add the media and the polish and run the tumbler for about 5 minutes before you add any brass.

Originally Posted by steelholder

Thanks, this tumbler alone is 35 on amazon. I bet i can cook up a media a separator at home..although it does look perfect and ready to go.

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Then just buy the $35 Amazon tumbler and the separator for $20 or even the $8 separator that you shake over a 5 gallon bucket.
Then go pickup a $20 bag of media from the pet store and a $5 bottle of polish from Walmart and a $4 bucket from home depot.

You will still be into it about $80, but with a bunch more driving around.

steelholder, that tumbler and seperator are fine, but try white rice for media. I switched a while back and love it. No dust like walnut or corn, the rice turns gray/black so you can see when its past its life. A 5# bag of rice at Wal Mart is $2.50. That fills up a tumbler prefectly.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by NorCalFocus

steelholder, that tumbler and seperator are fine, but try white rice for media. I switched a while back and love it. No dust like walnut or corn, the rice turns gray/black so you can see when its past its life. A 5# bag of rice at Wal Mart is $2.50. That fills up a tumbler prefectly.

I grew up on a farm.
We use corn and walnut.
Rice is commie food.

[NorCalFocus]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

I grew up on a farm.
We use corn and walnut.
Rice is commie food.

Prefect for those 7.62x39 shells then. lol

[Christopher761]

Originally Posted by Andy9161

No range pick ups here. These are all 1x fired lapua cases.

I ran a load with a lot of soap. Good results. Thank you all.

Once you get them all shiny like that, how long do they stay all shiny?

Just curious.

I have run a bunch of 45 that came out beautifully with the lemishine+wash and wax, and they were great. They did not discolor very quickly. But after a year, they did tarnish a little. Still clean, but not sparkly.

I wonder if there is an easy way to keep them shiny.

[tonyjr]

I have found nothing . Pretty brass is nice , but as long as it is clean , I don't care .
It would be nice if there was something , but even clear lacquer does not stop it on my wife's candle holders and reliefs

[SixPointEight]

Originally Posted by Christopher761

Once you get them all shiny like that, how long do they stay all shiny?

Just curious.

I have run a bunch of 45 that came out beautifully with the lemishine+wash and wax, and they were great. They did not discolor very quickly. But after a year, they did tarnish a little. Still clean, but not sparkly.

I wonder if there is an easy way to keep them shiny.

I had some in a poorly sealed rubbermaid container for ~5 years that look nearly as good as when they came out of the tumbler

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

[stilly]

Those look good.

I typically use about .5CC or so of Citric Acid with or without pins and hot water and mine have been coming out really nice, but they DO tarnish and turn from bright brassy to slightly darker golden afterwards. I have no complaints though since I have nothing to coat them in the water, but at an operating cost of about .05 or less of chemicals added, I do not complain. Just put in enough water to cover your shells about an inch over and dump in the citric acid with a Lee Dipper. Works for me. And now that I craft other chemicals, I might just move into those for experimentation. but one step at a time. I still need to mail a few things out...

[Lead Waster]

I agree that it might be the rubber liner of your tumbler. I find my brass is almost greasy. I had HEARD (completely unconfirmed) that Dawn is a bit harsh on the lining.

Not sure how true that might be.

[rmi63]

Originally Posted by buruli

I'm a chemist and wet tumble brass all the time. I've had this same issue and solved it -- so think I can shed some light on the chemistry of what is actually going on and why we see variability from batch to batch.. The problem we sometimes see is our cases are physically "clean" from the soap and the mechanical abrasion, of the pins, but don't have the shine. This is because your citric acid has been neutralized by contaminants during your initial cleaning. The pH is now too high to give you a bright shine in a wet tumbler. The brass is clean but not shiny. If you were to check the pH of the solution you poured off your dark colored batch of brass, you would see it has increased. Here is what to do if you see they aren't looking like gold after the first tumble--- Pour off the water. Add fresh warm water and more lemi shine or other pH lowering agent. I use two .45 cases full to a Franklin tumbler load. No need to add more soap . . .no surfactant is needed since the brass is physically clean, but not shiny. Retumble - it won't take very long. Brass will come out like gold. The reason we see variability from batch to batch is that the pH buffering capacity of each lot off brass is different. i.e. sometimes the citric acid gets neutralized on the first tumble, sometimes it doesn't depending on the size of the load, how dirty the brass is, and other variables.

I don't think the OP or myself is having this same issue. I have taken the brass that had this problem and wiped it using a towel and all of the black stuff comes off leaving clean shiny brass. There is some kind of black film on the brass. The times that this happened, I dumped the water and retumbled for a hour with new water and soap. The second tumble cleaned the brass leaving it nice and shiny. The thing that bugs me is that I don't know why sometimes I have this black film on the brass.

[tonyjr]

rmi63
I don't remember if you said you don't use range brass .
Different powders act differently . mix them ?
Anyway , I have 2 nieces that reload here and if vibrator is busy when they come , they will use the rotary - when the suds look dirty , they rinse .
With me , if I do like the 32 ACP and 38 / 45 - I use different powders and figured that might cause ugly cases - but I really don't care as long as clean . Even different cases might cause it .

[Andy9161]

Originally Posted by rmi63

I don't think the OP or myself is having this same issue. I have taken the brass that had this problem and wiped it using a towel and all of the black stuff comes off leaving clean shiny brass. There is some kind of black film on the brass. The times that this happened, I dumped the water and retumbled for a hour with new water and soap. The second tumble cleaned the brass leaving it nice and shiny. The thing that bugs me is that I don't know why sometimes I have this black film on the brass.

I switched over to using the Lyman turbosonic solution and have not had this problem again.

Might be worth a shot...

[rmi63]

I think I figured out my problem. I was originally using turtle wax car wash with wax instead of dish soap. The first batch would come out fine but if I immediately tumble a second batch with exactly the same recipe as the first batch, I had a problem. Since I did not rinse out the tumbler but just emptied it after the first batch, I am thinking that there was a accumulation of the wax in the car wash and all of the grime leaving the coating on the black coating on the brass. I have gone back to dish soap and have not had the problem since.