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  #41  
Old 09-18-2020, 5:03 PM
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My buddy picked up some #4 buck. I am pretty sure it would suck to get hit by that. And, that is the smallest buck shot.
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  #42  
Old 09-21-2020, 1:37 PM
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Hey guys, here are some pics I took at the patterning board on Saturday, in case it's helpful to this HD ammo convo

I shot a target load shell (2.75", 1180fps, 1oz, #8 bird, 12a) with a 24" barrel (modified choke) M2 from 15 yards.

First pic is to show the pattern, where most of it was around my point of aim (the hole) and the second pic is the 9" fore end for a size comparison

What do you guys think of this as a defensive load for a 10-15 yard shot?
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  #43  
Old 09-24-2020, 11:40 AM
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Naz: Your gun with that choke would be fine. Typically a Cylinder Bore shotgun will pattern 00 buck inot 15" at 15 yards and open up 1 more inch for every yard after that. Same for Birdshot.

Keep in mind that with birdshot your shots need to focus on the head or face for maximum effect. Shooting someone in the butt at 20 yards is not going to have the desired effect, and might blow back on you.

Here is a pattern with 00 Buck from my M500 with Vang Comp'd barrel. It is roughly 3x3". 15 yards. A pattern with #8 birdshot would be slightly bigger 4x4? but have 400 pellets so the shot density is much greater. A shot in the face with regular birdshot from this gun would be terminal on most anyone.



Federal Flight Control Buckshot will produce similar results as the Vang Comped gun,,, IF,,, and this is a big IF,,, You can find some. I have never been able to find any even in times of plenty. I just wish Federal would release Flight Control Wads as components so we could load our own.

Hope this helps.

Randy
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  #44  
Old 09-24-2020, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post

Federal Flight Control Buckshot will produce similar results as the Vang Comped gun,,, IF,,, and this is a big IF,,, You can find some. I have never been able to find any even in times of plenty. I just wish Federal would release Flight Control Wads as components so we could load our own.

Hope this helps.

Randy
I got 250rd cases of LE132 and LE133 from TargetSports USA, but this was before the Feds started taking them all with a huge contract. So now mine are 'open in emergency only' until supply comes back.
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  #45  
Old 09-24-2020, 2:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
Naz: Your gun with that choke would be fine. Typically a Cylinder Bore shotgun will pattern 00 buck inot 15" at 15 yards and open up 1 more inch for every yard after that. Same for Birdshot.

Keep in mind that with birdshot your shots need to focus on the head or face for maximum effect. Shooting someone in the butt at 20 yards is not going to have the desired effect, and might blow back on you.

Here is a pattern with 00 Buck from my M500 with Vang Comp'd barrel. It is roughly 3x3". 15 yards. A pattern with #8 birdshot would be slightly bigger 4x4? but have 400 pellets so the shot density is much greater. A shot in the face with regular birdshot from this gun would be terminal on most anyone.

Federal Flight Control Buckshot will produce similar results as the Vang Comped gun,,, IF,,, and this is a big IF,,, You can find some. I have never been able to find any even in times of plenty. I just wish Federal would release Flight Control Wads as components so we could load our own.

Hope this helps.

Randy
Thanks Randy. That #8 target load is what I have tons of, so I wanted to see what it would pattern.

I’m going to try some #4 and #6 that are loaded with more powder next time.

I don’t have much buck or slugs around, and plan to grab a rifle if need more stopping power. 15yrd is about as far of a shot as I’d need to make / want to make in my home
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  #46  
Old 09-25-2020, 10:51 AM
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Naz: Just don't get caught up in the "Only place I will use this gun is in my Home" Idea.

What would happen if you had to chase the guy outside, or "Repel Boarders" as it were? In our current climate, these are not impossible situations.

Things will loosen up after the Election and as this Disease passes.
Ammo will become more available and then you need to look at ordering a Hundred or so Slugs and 00 Bucks for your Kit. The whole point of the Combat Shotgun is the versatility of different types of ammo for different uses.

If you've got #4's or #6's they will be much more effective than #8's. The #4's are Goose Loads and if you could find some #2's or BB's it would push you even closer to buckshot. A face full of #2's at 10-15 yards would probably take your head off. Literally.

Randy
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  #47  
Old 09-25-2020, 10:59 AM
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IIRC, the Estate 00 Buck shell length is about 1/4" longer than most other manufacturers of buckshot. So you get one less shell in your extended magazine over other manufacturers of buckshot.

But as far as effectiveness, it'll do the job fine.
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  #48  
Old 09-25-2020, 12:38 PM
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K1: There are 2 3/4" 00 Buckshot loads and 3" 00 Buckshot loads. The 3" is about 1/4" longer than the 2 3/4" shells.
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  #49  
Old 09-25-2020, 1:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post

Federal Flight Control Buckshot will produce similar results as the Vang Comped gun,,, IF,,, and this is a big IF,,, You can find some. I have never been able to find any even in times of plenty. I just wish Federal would release Flight Control Wads as components so we could load our own.

Hope this helps.

Randy
I had no idea they are now unobtanium. Soon as I saw your post checked my stash....enough thankfully:

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  #50  
Old 09-25-2020, 1:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
K1: There are 2 3/4" 00 Buckshot loads and 3" 00 Buckshot loads. The 3" is about 1/4" longer than the 2 3/4" shells.
I was mistaken. I was thinking of Rio Royal Buck, not Estate Buckshot.

Rio Royal Buck 2 3/4" Buckshot actually measures 2 17/32" long.

Suprema 2 3/4" Buckshot actually measures 2 11/32" long.

Winchester 2 3/4" Buckshot actually measures 2 3/8" long.

Remington 2 3/4" Buckshot actually measures 2 11/32" long.

I don't have any Estate Buckshot to measure.

But with the Rio, that extra length adds up. It loads one less shell in my mag tube, so I stopped buying Rio.
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  #51  
Old 09-25-2020, 3:45 PM
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Don't own a shotgun anymore & I'm not reading the entire thread but:

I liked defense shells from Hornady & Federal. They both had similar wads that helped tighten patterns ("Versatite" & "Flitewad", respectively). If you can't find either, get whatever at this point.
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  #52  
Old 09-25-2020, 3:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
Naz: Just don't get caught up in the "Only place I will use this gun is in my Home" Idea.

What would happen if you had to chase the guy outside, or "Repel Boarders" as it were? In our current climate, these are not impossible situations.

Things will loosen up after the Election and as this Disease passes.
Ammo will become more available and then you need to look at ordering a Hundred or so Slugs and 00 Bucks for your Kit. The whole point of the Combat Shotgun is the versatility of different types of ammo for different uses.

If you've got #4's or #6's they will be much more effective than #8's. The #4's are Goose Loads and if you could find some #2's or BB's it would push you even closer to buckshot. A face full of #2's at 10-15 yards would probably take your head off. Literally.

Randy
Hey Randy, you make a good point about the versatility of the shotgun.

I’m more comfortable with using rifle and pistol for defense and have viewed the shotgun as a backup. I’m definitely looking into getting more coaching on how to use shotgun for cqb.

“repel boarders” trying to violently break into my home to cause some mayhem, That’s one thing.

Chasing people outside my home with a firearm comes off like how I end up in the news being cast as the bad guy, and worse case, LEO end up taking me out for having a scary black long gun.

Dang. I hope that never happens. I’d really like for the things I shoot to be clay and cardboard.
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  #53  
Old 09-25-2020, 4:02 PM
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All of those are 2 3/4" shells.

The stack height and crimp account for the shorter dimensions.

The only Rio Hulls I have are new Rio Hulls that I have loaded myself. They are 2 7/16 long. With a Roll Crimp.
These have a Plastic Overshot Card in them which is 1/16" thick. with a different overshot card they could be shorter as teh roll Crimp will go down as deep as you'd like..



Note: you can see how deep the Clear Brenneke Round is roll Crimped.





Randy
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  #54  
Old 09-25-2020, 4:57 PM
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In California, you need to make sure the buckshot is steel.
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  #55  
Old 09-25-2020, 7:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 003 View Post
I just did a quick goggle search. I see no reason that the estate buckshot cannot be used in the same manner as all other buckshot loads.

If it is sold in the US, it meets Sammi (Sporting arms and ammunition manufacturers institute) spec's and should be GTG.

https://saami.org/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imageview View Post
They're both fine for self defense. LGS employees often give creative advice.
This is my view as well. 00 Buckshot is 00 Buckshot, regardless of brand, for "stop the assailant" self-defense purposes. Some 00 Buck loads have a bit more power and thus more kick, but in a SD situation, I'm not going to care what the kick is. My only concern at that point is defend my wife, myself, and our home. If I can do that, then a bruised shoulder is an infinitesimally small price to pay.

Any SAAMI-spec brand is good. Fortunately, unless you're using handloads, you're pretty much guaranteed a SAAMI-spec load.

Someone mentioned the cartridge's length affecting how many rounds you can stuff into the tubular magazine. This is true. For that reason, I choose the 2 3/4" cartridges.
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  #56  
Old 09-25-2020, 7:26 PM
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I can’t really imagine anyone shot by any sort of shotgun round would stick around to continue committing the crime they were there to do. If a guy gets shot in the chest or face with birdshot, can he really still get it up to continue with a rape? Will he really continue to steal your stuff and go to the hospital later once he brings the stuff he robbed you for to his place?

Having never shot anyone before, I would say that any sort of buckshot would be more than effective. Even bird shot would be pretty effective also.
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  #57  
Old 09-25-2020, 7:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Screagle View Post
Anyone know why the Estate brand wasn’t recommended?

FUDD-O-Meter is pegged.




Here's a hint; if it's MADE for your firearm (caliber, or shell length, with shotgun shells), it's "HD ammo" when it's all you have left.
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  #58  
Old 09-25-2020, 10:19 PM
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00 buck should all work, but different brands can pattern very differently, from what I've seen. Flite Control works very well in my Benelli.
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  #59  
Old 09-26-2020, 5:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdg30 View Post
If a guy gets shot in the chest or face with birdshot, can he really still get it up to continue with a rape? Will he really continue to steal your stuff...

.
Will he really continue to stab you? Will he really continue to beat you with a skate board? Will he really continue to pull the trigger on his gun?

Bird shot is not a man stopper, buck shot is.
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  #60  
Old 09-26-2020, 5:51 AM
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12 00 buck for home defence...

Its all good for us.
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  #61  
Old 09-26-2020, 6:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Screagle View Post
Went to a LGS to get some 12ga 00 buckshot for home defensive purposes. Only ammo for 12ga they had left was a box of Fiocchi Defense 12ga 00 2 3/4 buckshot and a case worth of Estate brand 12ga 00 2 3/4 buckshot. I asked them if there was any difference between the two for home defence and the salesperson (ultra nice guy) said that the Estate brand buck was not used for self defense (could not follow his explanation regarding difference). Anyone know why the Estate brand wasn’t recommended?
With what is going on right now maybe you should just be grateful that you could have bought some shells.
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  #62  
Old 09-26-2020, 7:07 AM
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Best 00 Buck load might be HEVI-Shot Dead Coyote. I have killed coyotes at 50 yards with the T loads and it puts em down. The pellets are heavier than lead so more retained energy down range. I just do not know if the slight mass advantage is worth the price tag.....probably not.
https://www.hevishot.com/catalog/dead-coyote/
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