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  #1  
Old 05-17-2018, 8:52 AM
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Default ccw suspended then revoked appeals?

I have a client who has held a ccw in Orange County for several years. Recently, he was told his permit was suspended. Two weeks later, the ccw was revoked. Obviously there are more facts but not necessary for the question:
Who has experience fighting ccw revocations in OC?
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Old 05-17-2018, 9:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoghammer View Post
I have a client who has held a ccw in Orange County for several years. Recently, he was told his permit was suspended. Two weeks later, the ccw was revoked. Obviously there are more facts but not necessary for the question:
Who has experience fighting ccw revocations in OC?
No experience with CCW revocations, but I do have some general background in responding to licensure appeals.

My first advice is always to closely look at rules governing the process. Make every effort to forget about any notion of "fair play." It's not part of the process and any attempt to make it part of the process is only going to make it more difficult and expensive.

The second is to gather as much information as is possible concerning the information used by the agency to support their decision.

The best way to win an appeal is to specifically show that the agency violated a law, rule, or regulation in reaching their decision. You need to be very specific in identifying the law, rule, or regulation and in describing how the revocation violated it. That's going to be really hard to do in the case of a CCW permit since the issuing authority has broad discretion on both the "good character" and "good cause" requirements.

The other avenue is to show that the agency relied on bad information in making their decision. Suppose, as an example, that it was revoked because the holder suffered a felony conviction in Nevada. You show that the permit holder is a different person than the one having the conviction.
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Old 05-17-2018, 10:58 AM
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When the smoke clears, if you could give us a generic overview of what lead to this it would be very helpful. It may help keep someone else from losing theirs.

I hope it works out for your client.
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:08 AM
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Why not give us an overview now? It's not like we know the person.
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:09 AM
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Old 05-17-2018, 8:49 PM
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Overview--- Client leaves his business and as he is about to drive out of the parking area Client hears a female screaming for help. Client observes a homeless male beating the female. Client stops his vehicle and tries to get the homeless male to stop beating the female. Homeless male grabs some sort of compressed gas cylinder type device and starts threatening Client. Client finds himself unable to retreat safely and believes that the cylinder may contain acid or some other harmful substance. Client pulls pistol in defense of self. Homeless male drops to ground and starts claiming that he knows the "cop" (who he names) and that the "cop" will take Client down. Client calls 911. Independent witness calls 911. Cops arrive. Female and homeless male (who turn out to be married) claim that Client threatened them, that homeless male never touched female, that Client never identified himself and that they never threatened Client. Cops discount Client's statements and the statements of independent witness. Cops cite homeless male for drug possession but refuse to cite or arrest him for 245 against Client. Police Report is not even close to accurate, well outside of POST module, full of baseless opinion, etc. Client retrieves video from his vehicle and provides it to cops. Cops claim it is too hard to see and lacks time stamp. DA sees video and charges homeless male with the drug possession and battery of cohabitant (domestic). Homeless male is 2 striker and gang related with long conviction history. Client apparently did not file "police contact" report in a timely manner. Cops issue suspension then revoke ccw.
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Old 05-17-2018, 9:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoghammer View Post
I have a client who has held a ccw in Orange County for several years. Recently, he was told his permit was suspended. Two weeks later, the ccw was revoked. Obviously there are more facts but not necessary for the question:
Who has experience fighting ccw revocations in OC?
First note the fight is not likely to be cheap. However Steve Lieberman and Cosmo Taormina at LIEBERMAN, TAORMINA, LLP have experience and success in this area.(949) 431-6612

If you receive info from CRPA you will find they teach the CCW seminars, and have and are representing NRA on several current cases in So. Cal. They are located in Lake Forest.

http://www.ltccwlaw.com/profile.html
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Old 05-17-2018, 10:01 PM
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Default ccw suspended then revoked appeals?

The part of filing in a timely manner is most likely what got it revoked. There are specific guidelines to make a report.
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:06 PM
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MAN!...Isn't that your worst nightmare.

You intervene on what is clearly a violent situation in an attempt to help the woman being beaten and then it gets turned around on you because they're married. It's stories like this that make me never want to intervene on anything unless somebody is actually being shot at.
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Old 05-18-2018, 8:12 AM
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Quote:
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Client apparently did not file "police contact" report in a timely manner.
You could have skipped the whole novel and just said this. He violated the terms of his license. End of story.
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Old 05-18-2018, 8:32 AM
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Originally Posted by L84CABO View Post
MAN!...Isn't that your worst nightmare.

You intervene on what is clearly a violent situation in an attempt to help the woman being beaten and then it gets turned around on you because they're married. It's stories like this that make me never want to intervene on anything unless somebody is actually being shot at.


Thatís why I have strict personal rules on when I would engage someone. My ccw is for me and my family. Iíll be a good witness in other situations unless itís children being harmed.
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Old 05-18-2018, 8:36 AM
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I think the guy is screwed. I seem to remember mine (in OC) says something like "can be revoked at anytime for any reason".

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Old 05-18-2018, 8:44 AM
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Originally Posted by igs View Post
You could have skipped the whole novel and just said this. He violated the terms of his license. End of story.
Yup. He better be looking for a good civil lawyer to defend him against the victims that are no doubt now scarred for life. As to his permit, he violated the terms by not advising the IA.
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Old 05-18-2018, 1:05 PM
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I changed my thinking a few years ago on CCW intervention. If a family or friend matter, and I can confirm the events, then it is likely that I would assist. Otherwise, my fingers are dialing 911 and awaiting police intervention. There is too much risk to me from a legal perspective. There is no immunity to the average "Joe".
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Old 05-18-2018, 1:14 PM
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I was sued once for coming to a woman aid who was being choked for over 6mil one time.

When I took CCW training the instructor gave multiple scenarios of real incidents where pulling you gun to protect anyone other than you or your loved ones can bite you in the ***.

Like off duty cops shooting under cover cops.....husband and wife having a rape fantasy play out in parks...best to just call 911.
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Old 05-18-2018, 1:42 PM
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So how long did the guy wait to report to the IA?
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Old 05-18-2018, 1:46 PM
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While I am sad to hear of the situation, the reality is that there are virtually NO laws or case law regarding the issuance or revocation of CCW's. They are STRICTLY under the prevue (and whim) of the sheriff and their decision is not practically subject to ANY review or appeal.
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Old 05-18-2018, 3:13 PM
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So how long did the guy wait to report to the IA?


This and why did he wait to report to IA?


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Old 05-18-2018, 5:26 PM
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Very unfortunate... He should have reported it within the 5 days required by OCSD rules. I defended a third party from a violent attack and emailed a letter to the OCSD CCW Unit the following morning. I had no problems and was told to "continue carrying" while they conducted their investigation. I received a "no action will be taken regarding your permit" letter a few weeks later.

I would also recommed Steven Lieberman and his partner as mentioned above by granter2. Also, USCCA self defense insurance could help with the legal fees if he was a member.
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Old 05-18-2018, 5:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriller134 View Post
Thatís why I have strict personal rules on when I would engage someone. My ccw is for me and my family. Iíll be a good witness in other situations unless itís children being harmed.
I totally agree on that personal Rule my Family and I.....
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Old 05-18-2018, 6:00 PM
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If folks didn't learn from Zimmerman that a CCW isn't the answer to every problem, this should teach them.

EDC pepper spray too.
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Old 05-18-2018, 7:39 PM
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OP, I have been to three different CCW training classes. CA, AZ, and UT. In every single one of them we talked about this stuff and the very type of scenario you describe. Before I add another 2 cents....

Quote:
Originally Posted by kriller134 View Post
That’s why I have strict personal rules on when I would engage someone. My ccw is for me and my family. I’ll be a good witness in other situations unless it’s children being harmed.
I could not have said it any better than that. Some woman getting beat, well that REALLY sucks but you know what... if he didn't have a gun then there's nothing he could have done anyway. I hate to say this because it seems heartless and it kind of is, but it just sucks to be her. Call 911 and stay away. Now in the end, he didn't save that woman from anything and she's probably experiencing it again this very night, but now he's lost his license to carry and defend those that REALLY matter in his life. Booooo.

Didn't report a CCW incident and LEO contact in a timely matter? Why not? He's pretty well screwed, call a lawyer and ask for a hearing I guess.
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Old 05-18-2018, 7:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
If folks didn't learn from Zimmerman that a CCW isn't the answer to every problem, this should teach them.

EDC pepper spray too.
Ummm, CCW is a solution to getting your head bashed in. Completely justified and may well have prevented permanent harm or worse. No reason to allow yourself to become the next Reginald Denny.
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Old 05-18-2018, 8:35 PM
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Ummm, CCW is a solution to getting your head bashed in. Completely justified and may well have prevented permanent harm or worse. No reason to allow yourself to become the next Reginald Denny.
If Zimmerman had known H2H or had OC he could have stopped things before he was getting his head bashed in.

The lesson from Z is that even a legally defensible/justified/"good" shoot can still DESTROY your life. Best to have other "tools" in your toolkit to avoid having to go through all of what he did -- and Z didn't even have to face a civil lawsuit!

In CA, we do NOT have the NRA's Model Castle Doctrine law which bars civil lawsuits by the BG or his survivors when the CCWer isn't criminally convicted.
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Old 05-18-2018, 8:49 PM
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Laughable as it may be, it's not completely shocking he got his license suspended.

He seems to have a good basis to file an appeal to reinstate his permit.

I would be very interested to know the outcome of that.

Thanks for sharing some of the facts -- good luck.
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Old 05-18-2018, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caliberetta View Post
Laughable as it may be, it's not completely shocking he got his license suspended.

He seems to have a good basis to file an appeal to reinstate his permit.

I would be very interested to know the outcome of that.

Thanks for sharing some of the facts -- good luck.
What is the good basis? He didnít notify his IA of the police contact (or presumably the use of his weapon).
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Old 05-18-2018, 11:51 PM
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So someone doesn't follow the rules for having a CCW permit, gets it revoked, and now wants to complain about it... Sounds like IA found out about the incident from the LEA that took the brandishing report/whatever it turned into; I coulda called that permit revocation from here. Good luck; hopefully they will be understanding.
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Old 05-19-2018, 5:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
If Zimmerman had known H2H or had OC he could have stopped things before he was getting his head bashed in.
While this may be true, Zimmerman shouldn't have to know H2H or carry OC to keep his head from getting bashed in. You cannot reasonably be expected to have mano y mano fighting skills to a level able to defend against any attacker, my GF certainly doesn't... and some people fight right through pepper spray.
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Old 05-19-2018, 5:22 AM
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Originally Posted by hoghammer View Post
Client apparently did not file "police contact" report in a timely manner. Cops issue suspension then revoke ccw.
And there it is. All the other stuff is irrelevant.
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Old 05-19-2018, 8:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoghammer View Post
Overview--- Client leaves his business and as he is about to drive out of the parking area Client hears a female screaming for help. Client observes a homeless male beating the female. Client stops his vehicle and tries to get the homeless male to stop beating the female. Homeless male grabs some sort of compressed gas cylinder type device and starts threatening Client. Client finds himself unable to retreat safely and believes that the cylinder may contain acid or some other harmful substance. Client pulls pistol in defense of self. Homeless male drops to ground and starts claiming that he knows the "cop" (who he names) and that the "cop" will take Client down. Client calls 911. Independent witness calls 911. Cops arrive. Female and homeless male (who turn out to be married) claim that Client threatened them, that homeless male never touched female, that Client never identified himself and that they never threatened Client. Cops discount Client's statements and the statements of independent witness. Cops cite homeless male for drug possession but refuse to cite or arrest him for 245 against Client. Police Report is not even close to accurate, well outside of POST module, full of baseless opinion, etc. Client retrieves video from his vehicle and provides it to cops. Cops claim it is too hard to see and lacks time stamp. DA sees video and charges homeless male with the drug possession and battery of cohabitant (domestic). Homeless male is 2 striker and gang related with long conviction history. Client apparently did not file "police contact" report in a timely manner. Cops issue suspension then revoke ccw.
CCW doesn't make you a cop. Client should have dialed 911 from the safety of his car and, if confronted by the homeless man, driven away rapidly.
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Old 05-19-2018, 8:51 AM
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And there it is. All the other stuff is irrelevant.
Fact.
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Old 05-19-2018, 9:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuna quesadilla View Post
CCW doesn't make you a cop. Client should have dialed 911 from the safety of his car and, if confronted by the homeless man, driven away rapidly.
This times 1000!

Both CCW classes I've taken have had heavy emphasis on being a good witness. You are not LEO and if you step into something to "help" you do so at your own peril. The least is you'll likely lose your permit, but you may have to explain your actions to a jury (civil and or criminal)
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Old 05-20-2018, 7:20 AM
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In class we were tasked with carefully thinking about and then creating a list of those people we would use our LTC for. The lists were generally very short, consisting of family.
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Old 05-20-2018, 9:39 AM
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He lost his permit for not reporting the incident to the OCSD. I'm not saying he did right or wrong in this situation because I wasn't there during the incident.

To those with the, "I'm only helping my family" mentality... If you witness a traumatic event like a stranger being murdered, please remember that you have to live with your choice of not assisting. Having the means to stop a murder or great bodily injury and purposely not giving assistance is something that would cause me not to sleep at night. I would do my best to help, armed or not.

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Old 05-20-2018, 10:55 AM
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"To those with the, "I'm only helping my family" mentality... If you witness a traumatic event like a stranger being murdered, please remember that you have to live with your choice of not assisting. Having the means to stop a murder or great bodily injury and purposely not giving assistance is something that would cause me not to sleep at night. I would do my best to help, armed or not."
glock21sf.........absolutely dead on !
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Old 05-20-2018, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by glock21sf View Post
To those with the, "I'm only helping my family" mentality... If you witness a traumatic event like a stranger being murdered, please remember that you have to live with your choice of not assisting. Having the means to stop a murder or great bodily injury and purposely not giving assistance is something that would cause me not to sleep at night. I would do my best to help, armed or not.
Thank you for restoring my faith in Calguns. I was starting to think I was the only one.
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Old 05-20-2018, 2:50 PM
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Thank you for restoring my faith in Calguns. I was starting to think I was the only one.
You're welcome.

In my experience with violent situations, training takes over and a response to violence is either automatic or non-existent. You're either going to fight back, run, or freeze when it counts, regardless of your relationship to a victim. Train regularly and have the "I'm gonna win this fight" mentally for the best chance at prevailing during a violent encounter.
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Old 05-20-2018, 4:05 PM
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Originally Posted by glock21sf View Post
He lost his permit for not reporting the incident to the OCSD. I'm not saying he did right or wrong in this situation because I wasn't there during the incident.

To those with the, "I'm only helping my family" mentality... If you witness a traumatic event like a stranger being murdered, please remember that you have to live with your choice of not assisting. Having the means to stop a murder or great bodily injury and purposely not giving assistance is something that would cause me not to sleep at night. I would do my best to help, armed or not.


And Iím perfectly fine with my choices. Itís not my responsibility to play hero. My family depends on me and Iím not going to jeopardize my safety, freedom, or financial stability for someone I donít know.
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Old 05-20-2018, 4:41 PM
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If anyone thinks the revocation is harsh given the circumstances, let me offer this: If an off duty sworn LEO was in the same situation with the same variables, he / she would be obligated to report the incident to their chain of command immediately.

Staying and assisting the responding LE after the incident would not exempt LEO from also immediately reporting it to their own chain of command. Failing to do so would result in certain discipline.
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Old 05-20-2018, 4:51 PM
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I think everyone who has a ccw needs to separate the two issues.

First, and foremost, is it a situation where you are legally permitted to act with deadly force. For those inclined, this is where the decision to help others comes in.

Second, though, and in play here, is the absolute mandate that IF you take any action involving your ccw, you NEED to report it immediately. I would personally call an attorney first, but the incident needs to be reported, and the fact that you feel justified in your actions does not change this requirement.

Put a lawyers number in your phone and call as soon as you are safe. But always keep in mind the incident needs to be reported.
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I don't need to think at all..
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You are talking to someone who already won this lame conversation, not a brick a wall. Too bad you don't realize it.
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My transvestite analogy stands.
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Didn't realize. I try not to be political.
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