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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

View Poll Results: What are your feelings about Front Sight?
Great Training for Beginners Only. 69 7.89%
Great Training Beginner and Advanced. 591 67.62%
The Quality of Training is Going Down Hill. 19 2.17%
I paid too much for my Membership! 40 4.58%
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  #9521  
Old 05-17-2018, 7:42 AM
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You guys running weapon mounted or handheld lights for it?
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  #9522  
Old 05-17-2018, 8:19 AM
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You guys running weapon mounted or handheld lights for it?
I'm bringing both. Any thoughts as to preference?
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  #9523  
Old 05-17-2018, 10:55 AM
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It used to be staff discouraged weapon mounted lights but that's changed recently.
I'm thinking about taking it with with one attached if I can get out there that weekend.
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  #9524  
Old 05-17-2018, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Jedi54 View Post
You guys running weapon mounted or handheld lights for it?
Both plus laser. Depends on the scenarios. This is the first time we will be taking this new Tactical class. The old advanced tactical classes, different scenarios dictated different solutions.
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  #9525  
Old 05-17-2018, 2:00 PM
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Both plus laser. Depends on the scenarios. This is the first time we will be taking this new Tactical class. The old advanced tactical classes, different scenarios dictated different solutions.
Yes!
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  #9526  
Old 05-17-2018, 2:48 PM
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Originally Posted by LCU1670 View Post
Both plus laser. Depends on the scenarios. This is the first time we will be taking this new Tactical class. The old advanced tactical classes, different scenarios dictated different solutions.
Make sure that you are not confusing Tactical Handgun with ADVANCED Tactical Handgun.

I believe the former is mainly range work; while the latter is the running and gunning and rolling around in the dirt....
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  #9527  
Old 05-17-2018, 3:01 PM
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Originally Posted by LV_G22 View Post
Make sure that you are not confusing Tactical Handgun with ADVANCED Tactical Handgun.

I believe the former is mainly range work; while the latter is the running and gunning and rolling around in the dirt....
Tactical has 3 or 4 drills with movement.
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  #9528  
Old 05-17-2018, 3:24 PM
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Yeah I would expect it to have:
Close Contact
Palm Strike - Step Back
Response to Support Side
Response to Firing Side
Response to the Rear


But I think it is all range work - no shoot houses, cars, shooting on the move, Wilson wall, V-Tach, etc..

Correct?
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  #9529  
Old 05-17-2018, 3:28 PM
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Originally Posted by LV_G22 View Post
Yeah I would expect it to have:
Close Contact
Palm Strike - Step Back
Response to Support Side
Response to Firing Side
Response to the Rear


But I think it is all range work - no shoot houses, cars, shooting on the move, Wilson wall, V-Tach, etc..

Correct?

Nope. There’s is also Shoot house, shooting wall while moving. Moving to cover, etc.
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  #9530  
Old 05-17-2018, 3:50 PM
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Will there be vehicle work in Adv Tactical too? Been wanting to take LMS Vehicle Defense in Sacramento for a while, but my schedule always conflicts.

The old Adv Tact was only 2 days long, and now they split it up to Tact HG and Adv Tact over 4 days. There has got to be some new stuff they're adding, no?
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  #9531  
Old 05-17-2018, 4:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LV_G22 View Post
Make sure that you are not confusing Tactical Handgun with ADVANCED Tactical Handgun.

I believe the former is mainly range work; while the latter is the running and gunning and rolling around in the dirt....
Yes, this new one I am guessing will mostly be range work. But, it's best to be prepared. Wife and I will have it first day, then night, then the new Tactical Awareness class, then 4 night UZI.
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  #9532  
Old 05-17-2018, 4:41 PM
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Will there be vehicle work in Adv Tactical too? Been wanting to take LMS Vehicle Defense in Sacramento for a while, but my schedule always conflicts.

The old Adv Tact was only 2 days long, and now they split it up to Tact HG and Adv Tact over 4 days. There has got to be some new stuff they're adding, no?
Hope so. Did many advanced tact day and night previously. Each time the scenarios were mostly different. Sometimes a vehicle or two, or none at all. Think it was best when Carr was the RM.
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  #9533  
Old 05-28-2018, 10:21 PM
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I just recently got my diamond membership and I'm looking for advice from more experienced members: is there an optimal path for progressing through the curriculum asap? I have a copy of the class flow prerequisites up to combat master, just wondering if what you see is what you get....

Not having any classes under my belt, looking for classes i can take and that agree with my vacation schedule is limited
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  #9534  
Old 05-29-2018, 4:51 AM
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What you see is what you get. I once had visions too of blowing through the lower level classes...then reality stepped in to clear up that thought process. It is all good though working to improve.
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  #9535  
Old 05-29-2018, 5:51 AM
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I just recently got my diamond membership and I'm looking for advice from more experienced members: is there an optimal path for progressing through the curriculum asap?
First, take the 4 day handgun and see how it goes. It all depends on your skill level & confidence before you get there, how easily (and quickly) you soak it all up, and how much you can practice before a return visit.

My very first visit to FS, I DG'd handgun with a borrowed Glock 19, then I DG'd rifle on my next visit (first try) as well. I was sick the week I did shotgun and missed DG, but shot zero down on that skills test the next time I tried.

I say this because it's not very common to blow through all of the basic classes with a DG in one or even two tries, and certainly not 'easy'... Some folks have been returning for years, never getting one of the DG's they are looking for.

Something that helped me prior to rifle, having only been to front sight once for the handgun course was this: Now knowing what the classes would be like, I took home a roll of Front Sight targets + a copy of the dry practice manual (includes the skills tests), set up at home, and I ran the drills myself until I could shoot it within time and under score. I showed up and cleaned the test without any issue. The same went for shotgun. I would drag along a shotgun everywhere & dry practice on camping trips or whenever I could. Maybe don't try it while shopping at the mall, however.

I've helped a few friends do the same by practicing at home prior to heading out there. I use a phone app called Coach's Eye to record video of myself and friends, to play back frame by frame. You will see everything you are doing wrong or right with that little tool! It helped my Aunt correct a massive 'fly fishing' problem with her handgun draw, and helped me catch my lazy support hand.

I was already fairly competent with handguns and rifles before I ever made my first visit, but I always have tons of fun and learn a lot, every trip! Take an honest look at where you are skills-wise, attend the first 4 day handgun and see how you do.

Where do you live?

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  #9536  
Old 05-29-2018, 6:23 AM
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Mustard-

Oh yeah, and if you need a copy of the skills tests so you know what your getting in to, they've been posted in this thread prior, but if you can't find them, just ask- I'm sure someone will post them up quickly.

There's no more skills test in the first Tactical Handgun class, though.

Have fun!

Last edited by DesertClimber; 05-29-2018 at 6:26 AM..
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  #9537  
Old 05-29-2018, 8:06 AM
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Thanks.

Yeah, couldn't find a 4 day rifle or pistol that coincided with my optimal vacation options (holidays/three day weekend) so I'll have to take extra leave to make it. Going to do a 2 day petty soon though since ice been itching to use the membership and get out of town.

I Do have some fs drills I've collected from the internet. Mostly controlled pairs from various ready positions and holster, for rifle and pistol
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  #9538  
Old 05-29-2018, 10:39 AM
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So, who's going to be at Tactical HG tomorrow? Adv Tact on Friday? I know Jedi54 will be there.
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  #9539  
Old 05-30-2018, 5:45 PM
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I know it was mentioned earlier in the thread but today I confirmed that 5.11 is no longer the official apparel partner of Front Sight.

Pro shop has all 5.11 gear on clearance as well
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  #9540  
Old 05-30-2018, 5:55 PM
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Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
Will there be vehicle work in Adv Tactical too? Been wanting to take LMS Vehicle Defense in Sacramento for a while, but my schedule always conflicts.

The old Adv Tact was only 2 days long, and now they split it up to Tact HG and Adv Tact over 4 days. There has got to be some new stuff they're adding, no?
There was vehicle work during ATH when I took it in January. Egressing from vehicle solo and as driver/passenger. Also, shooting from around/over/under vehicle as cover.
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  #9541  
Old 05-30-2018, 5:58 PM
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Originally Posted by LCU1670 View Post
Both plus laser. Depends on the scenarios. This is the first time we will be taking this new Tactical class. The old advanced tactical classes, different scenarios dictated different solutions.
Having the laser during the night portion of TH/ATH was a blast - especially in the sim bay. I'd never used it at night. Very cool to see the beam passing through the dusty air, but the most interesting part was not having to have the typical sight picture over the top of the slide. One of the instructors said that, although he sees a lot of cool stuff on student's pistols, the laser was actually something he was interested in getting.
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  #9542  
Old 05-30-2018, 8:09 PM
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I know it was mentioned earlier in the thread but today I confirmed that 5.11 is no longer the official apparel partner of Front Sight.

Pro shop has all 5.11 gear on clearance as well
Any insight as to why?
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  #9543  
Old 05-31-2018, 5:12 AM
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Originally Posted by nszzya View Post
There was vehicle work during ATH when I took it in January. Egressing from vehicle solo and as driver/passenger. Also, shooting from around/over/under vehicle as cover.
I thought that was really fun!
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  #9544  
Old 05-31-2018, 3:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nszzya View Post
Having the laser during the night portion of TH/ATH was a blast - especially in the sim bay. I'd never used it at night. Very cool to see the beam passing through the dusty air, but the most interesting part was not having to have the typical sight picture over the top of the slide. One of the instructors said that, although he sees a lot of cool stuff on student's pistols, the laser was actually something he was interested in getting.
I think the laser is a mixed bag. If you don't train with it often, it's tempting to chase the dot which can be detrimental at distance. It also makes you change your natural muscle memory point of aim if you're chasing. With a target lit up, you should be able to align iron sights. Close range stuff your natural point of aim should get you in the ballpark quickly. The only advantage I can see of a laser on a handgun in civilian CQB is if you're injured, on the ground and point shooting, etc., and resist the temptation to chase the dot when it's not needed.
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  #9545  
Old 05-31-2018, 3:48 PM
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I think the laser is a mixed bag. If you don't train with it often, it's tempting to chase the dot which can be detrimental at distance. It also makes you change your natural muscle memory point of aim if you're chasing. With a target lit up, you should be able to align iron sights. Close range stuff your natural point of aim should get you in the ballpark quickly. The only advantage I can see of a laser on a handgun in civilian CQB is if you're injured, on the ground and point shooting, etc., and resist the temptation to chase the dot when it's not needed.

I feel the same about red-dot. I thought I would be quicker to point of aim, but I haven’t trained with it enough and I end up loosing it in the window and chasing it.
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  #9546  
Old 05-31-2018, 4:13 PM
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I feel the same about red-dot. I thought I would be quicker to point of aim, but I haven’t trained with it enough and I end up loosing it in the window and chasing it.
Gabe Suarez has a tremendous amount of information available online regarding red dots on pistols.

For learning the red dot read:

http://blog.suarezinternational.com/...-hand-off.html
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  #9547  
Old 05-31-2018, 6:20 PM
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Originally Posted by nszzya View Post
Having the laser during the night portion of TH/ATH was a blast - especially in the sim bay. I'd never used it at night. Very cool to see the beam passing through the dusty air, but the most interesting part was not having to have the typical sight picture over the top of the slide. One of the instructors said that, although he sees a lot of cool stuff on student's pistols, the laser was actually something he was interested in getting.
Thanks, won't be long now!
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  #9548  
Old 05-31-2018, 6:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Citizen_B View Post
I think the laser is a mixed bag. If you don't train with it often, it's tempting to chase the dot which can be detrimental at distance. It also makes you change your natural muscle memory point of aim if you're chasing. With a target lit up, you should be able to align iron sights. Close range stuff your natural point of aim should get you in the ballpark quickly. The only advantage I can see of a laser on a handgun in civilian CQB is if you're injured, on the ground and point shooting, etc., and resist the temptation to chase the dot when it's not needed.
Last 4 July night HG SB, I used the laser and liked it, it made me very fast, and at all distances I had a 6 inch hole blown out.wife did well too. The problem we did have is ours is on a 1911, so if you don't lighten your master grip, you turn the laser on as you go to two and pull your weapon out the holster. The button/pressure pad is on the front of the grip
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  #9549  
Old 06-03-2018, 4:31 AM
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Another trip in the books, damn that was fun.
Skill builder with Paul Beneux and then Adv Tactical with Dom Trudeau as the RM.
I'm exhausted and my legs are killing me from pushing myself pretty hard on day 1 but I'd take that class again in a second.

Beanz, what range were you on?
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  #9550  
Old 06-03-2018, 10:55 AM
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Another trip in the books, damn that was fun.
Skill builder with Paul Beneux and then Adv Tactical with Dom Trudeau as the RM.
I'm exhausted and my legs are killing me from pushing myself pretty hard on day 1 but I'd take that class again in a second.

Beanz, what range were you on?
Range 12 for Tact HG, Range 16 for Adv Tact. I tried looking for a guy with a Darth Vader helmet, but it musta been too hot to wear, huh?

Man, the difference between the old version and the current is huge! That unconventional response to the rear close contact was wild. I thought it didn't look safe but after doing it I can see how that can be useful, while it was actually safe to practice.

All the supine shooting positions were new too. I just wish it wasn't so hot. Lying on hot gravel with the sun in your eyes while staying in a semi crunch position was no fun. All that came in handy when shooting with the V-Tac wall though.

Did you like the interactive shoothouse scenarios? I got my *** handed to me by the instructors on the aggressive beggar scenario, but next time, I'll know what to look for. Unless they change their strategy.

Next time we'll skip the night portion on Tact HG. After learning the Harries, lighting sequence, etc. it was just wearing us out for the next day . Only six hours of sleep kills me! I wouldn't miss the night portion of Adv Tact, though. That was fun!

BTW, peeps would be better off having 800+ rounds for Adv Tact HG instead of the stated round count of 400.
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  #9551  
Old 06-03-2018, 3:48 PM
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Any insight as to why?
I would venture to guess lack of sales. First Tactical is an/the apparel partner now.
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  #9552  
Old 06-03-2018, 6:12 PM
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Range 12 for Tact HG
holy ****! I was range 12! Small world!
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  #9553  
Old 06-03-2018, 6:25 PM
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I would venture to guess lack of sales. First Tactical is an/the apparel partner now.
Sales were actually quite good actually. It seems there's been a lot going on behind the scenes with 5.11 and their new owners. There's a lot of retailers and distributors who haven't been happy with 5.11 for some time now and it seems FS is just the latest.

I'm interested to check out First Tactical as that's the original owner / founder of 5.11.
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Old 06-03-2018, 6:43 PM
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Range 12 for Tact HG, Range 16 for Adv Tact. I tried looking for a guy with a Darth Vader helmet, but it musta been too hot to wear, huh?
damn, you were right next door to me the last 2 days. I should have been easy to spot though, probably the only 6'6 guy wearing (mostly) all black out there on the range.
They told me I had to take the Darth Vader helmet off, some nonsense about no peripheral vision or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
Man, the difference between the old version and the current is huge! That unconventional response to the rear close contact was wild. I thought it didn't look safe but after doing it I can see how that can be useful, while it was actually safe to practice.
COMPLETELY night and day difference between the most recent Adv Tac and this new Advanced Tactical.
yup, that unconventional response to the rear was super fun. I seemed to be the odd one though where as most students were shooting the poor target in the legs / crotch, I somehow kept managing to whiz shots past the guys head.


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Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
All the supine shooting positions were new too. I just wish it wasn't so hot. Lying on hot gravel with the sun in your eyes while staying in a semi crunch position was no fun. All that came in handy when shooting with the V-Tac wall though.
I'd shot supine before so it wasn't totally new to me but it's definitely a fun shooting platform to practice. I will say this though, knee and elbow pads aren't 'optional', they're damn near Mandatory if you're going to take this seriously and get down there with any urgency and train realistically.
speaking of which, do NOT overdue it on day 1 and try to respect your own physical limits.
yes, that means swallowing your pride a bit and not going ALL out from the get go. I unfortunately am reminded of that today as my right knee is still swollen and my quads are killing me. It was worth it though because by the end of say one our RM had commented that I"d "perfected the John Wick sliding right into cover maneuver".

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Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
Did you like the interactive shoothouse scenarios? I got my *** handed to me by the instructors on the aggressive beggar scenario, but next time, I'll know what to look for. Unless they change their strategy.
LOVED them. The sim bays were probably the best part of the class as it teaches you some VITAL life lessons. I won't say much more as I don't want to spoil it for those who haven't taken the class yet but they're designed to really put you into a tough spot and force you to think. Heck, I'm still replaying some of them in my mind trying to figure out how I could have done things differently.
And yes, the scenarios change based on RM and Instructors. (not drastically but enough to still make it challenging for return students)

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Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
Next time we'll skip the night portion on Tact HG. After learning the Harries, lighting sequence, etc. it was just wearing us out for the next day . Only six hours of sleep kills me! I wouldn't miss the night portion of Adv Tact, though. That was fun!
Agreed. For anyone taking these classes back to back, I highly encourage you to skip the night shoot for Tactical handgun as the night shoot of Adv Tactical covers the same topics only in more depth and with better scenarios / shooting exercises.
6 hours? Yup, sounds about right. For anyone taking this around this time of year, plan on being on property until around 10 or 11 depending on your squad and how quickly everyone progresses through the bays.

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Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
BTW, peeps would be better off having 800+ rounds for Adv Tact HG instead of the stated round count of 400.
I haven't done a round count yet but I suspect I'm way over the 400 round mark.
I'd recommend a minimum of 500 and that's assuming you don't mag dump on steel targets and remember what the actual response to multiple targets is
I'll definitely be taking this class again in the future.

As for our Range Staff, I honestly can't compliment Dom Trudeau and his team enough, they were beyond awesome and really worked their asses off for us. This class can be very physically demanding on the students but it's even tougher on the staff. (I know another Adv Tac class had an RM go down with an injury)
Our awesome Instructors



I decided to thank them by bringing a box of donuts on day 2 and they seemed very appreciative of the gesture.

Last edited by Jedi54; 06-03-2018 at 6:59 PM..
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  #9555  
Old 06-03-2018, 7:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Jedi54 View Post
Sales were actually quite good actually. It seems there's been a lot going on behind the scenes with 5.11 and their new owners. There's a lot of retailers and distributors who haven't been happy with 5.11 for some time now and it seems FS is just the latest.

I'm interested to check out First Tactical as that's the original owner / founder of 5.11.
I can’t imagine it has much to do with the “new” owners, since the acquisition was in 2016. And 5.11 came on board at FS we’ll after that. I bet it was a pilot pop-up-store concept with the major revenue to the contract coming from the staff clothing. Probably just didn’t meet metrics for either party.
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  #9556  
Old 06-03-2018, 11:21 PM
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holy ****! I was range 12! Small world!
Hahaha, lots of Calis in the class, hard to spot the Calgunner, since clothing covers up their visible abs. I was with my wife and my brother, sitting on the left side in the back.

Did you take Adv Tact too?

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damn, you were right next door to me the last 2 days. I should have been easy to spot though, probably the only 6'6 guy wearing (mostly) all black out there on the range.
They told me I had to take the Darth Vader helmet off, some nonsense about no peripheral vision or something.
LOL, the sounds of that light saber actually gave you away. Talking about close contact


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I'd shot supine before so it wasn't totally new to me but it's definitely a fun shooting platform to practice. I will say this though, knee and elbow pads aren't 'optional', they're damn near Mandatory if you're going to take this seriously and get down there with any urgency and train realistically.
speaking of which, do NOT overdue it on day 1 and try to respect your own physical limits.
yes, that means swallowing your pride a bit and not going ALL out from the get go. I unfortunately am reminded of that today as my right knee is still swollen and my quads are killing me. It was worth it though because by the end of say one our RM had commented that I"d "perfected the John Wick sliding right into cover maneuver".
Yup. Next time I'd do lots more burpees before class. My neck is killing from shooting from the prone. Been a while since I've taken any rifle classes since the wife hates rifles.


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Agreed. For anyone taking these classes back to back, I highly encourage you to skip the night shoot for Tactical handgun as the night shoot of Adv Tactical covers the same topics only in more depth and with better scenarios / shooting exercises.
Not assuming your age, but I used to be able to get by with 6 hours. Now, I'm approaching

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I haven't done a round count yet but I suspect I'm way over the 400 round mark.
I'd recommend a minimum of 500 and that's assuming you don't mag dump on steel targets and remember what the actual response to multiple targets is
I'll definitely be taking this class again in the future.
My wife said FS has now changed the ammo round count on the website... She said it was changed to 750-800 for the course.

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I decided to thank them by bringing a box of donuts on day 2 and they seemed very appreciative of the gesture.
I gave the two instructors on our Squad, Shane Castro and TJ Wilson, 150 rounds of 9mm each. My bro gave them 100 rounds each.

I held the distinction of shattering the drivers side door glass on the truck on the vehicle work . My brother shattered the passenger side glass right after me . My round even managed to hit the steel target after going through the truck's door like butter.
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Old 06-04-2018, 9:28 AM
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Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
Hahaha, lots of Calis in the class, hard to spot the Calgunner, since clothing covers up their visible abs. I was with my wife and my brother, sitting on the left side in the back.

Did you take Adv Tact too?
We're you the guy with the Springfield xd i was talking to about locked cases?

I did not. It was only my first time there, and i didn't take any extra vacation to stay longer than the weekend. I was front row first day, but back row second day.

Calguns needs to sponsor some "inside joke" t shirts. I plan on becoming a regular at Front Sight; it'd be cool to wear a shirt that says "tere hanges" or "visible abs" so as to meet fellow calgunners
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Old 06-04-2018, 10:31 AM
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Not assuming your age, but I used to be able to get by with 6 hours. Now, I'm approaching
I'll be 38 a week from today.



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Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
My wife said FS has now changed the ammo round count on the website... She said it was changed to 750-800 for the course.
yup, looks like it's been updated.
2-Day Advanced Tactical Handgun: 600 ~ 700 rounds



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Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
I gave the two instructors on our Squad, Shane Castro and TJ Wilson, 150 rounds of 9mm each. My bro gave them 100 rounds each.
I know FS has a strict 'no gratuity' rule for it's employees but ammo is always greatly appreciated as it's not provided for them when they're instructing a course.
Especially for us Cali guys who can't take the ammo back home, might as well give it to a good cause. nicely done beanz!

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I held the distinction of shattering the drivers side door glass on the truck on the vehicle work . My brother shattered the passenger side glass right after me . My round even managed to hit the steel target after going through the truck's door like butter.
whoops!
we were specifically told by Baggett that if we shot the truck at all, we'd instantly be removed from that exercise due to that being a safety violation (ricochet could have unintended consequences)


Mustard: that visible abs joke never gets old.
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Old 06-04-2018, 11:43 AM
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We're you the guy with the Springfield xd i was talking to about locked cases?

I did not. It was only my first time there, and i didn't take any extra vacation to stay longer than the weekend. I was front row first day, but back row second day.

Calguns needs to sponsor some "inside joke" t shirts. I plan on becoming a regular at Front Sight; it'd be cool to wear a shirt that says "tere hanges" or "visible abs" so as to meet fellow calgunners
That was my brother from TX.

Yeah, Tere Hanges would be an awesome T shirt to have

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Originally Posted by Jedi54 View Post
I'll be 38 a week from today.

I know FS has a strict 'no gratuity' rule for it's employees but ammo is always greatly appreciated as it's not provided for them when they're instructing a course.
Especially for us Cali guys who can't take the ammo back home, might as well give it to a good cause. nicely done beanz!


whoops!
we were specifically told by Baggett that if we shot the truck at all, we'd instantly be removed from that exercise due to that being a safety violation (ricochet could have unintended consequences)
Hah, you're just a kid! Yeah, it's sad that the instructors have to buy their own ammo with the meager salary they get. A couple years back, another FS student had to get rid of a freezer baggie full of 5.56 at the airline counter at LAS because they were not in the original boxes, against airline policy. He offered to me, but I was boarding a flight home too. A Southwest worker end up getting it

Fortunately, our instructors were cool about it. Ricochet off a door? My bullet went right through ... and still hit the target in the belly

This is one class where you really need standard capacity mags. My wife had to borrow two of my 16 rounders (she is still so Californian ) Fortunately, I had a 26 rounder stashed away. Next time, I'm bringing all my extendo mags.
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  #9560  
Old 06-04-2018, 12:14 PM
DesertClimber DesertClimber is offline
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Did you like the interactive shoothouse scenarios? I got my *** handed to me by the instructors on the aggressive beggar scenario, but next time, I'll know what to look for. Unless they change their strategy...
Not a single one of us survived that scenario in my group!

LOL
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