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  #41  
Old 05-09-2012, 1:45 AM
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Since this thread is already going to crazytown....

All of the shotguns in California put together can hold a lot of rounds. Probably in the millions of rounds.
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  #42  
Old 05-09-2012, 2:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strongpoint View Post
i'm starting to get the feeling that a lot of people just read the OP, then reply without looking at the rest of the thread in question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by unusedusername View Post
Since this thread is already going to crazytown....

All of the shotguns in California put together can hold a lot of rounds. Probably in the millions of rounds.
i rest my case.
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  #43  
Old 05-09-2012, 10:56 AM
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There is NO magazine limit for shotguns. The only limitation is if you are not LEO, the importation or manufacturing of a hi capacity magazine law. A LEO can legally use a 20+ drum in a bullet button saiga 12 for example and that is only because he is able to purchase hi cap mags and they never existed before y2k. A magazine tube also counts as a magazine so for giggles if somebody had a 10+ mag tube on a benelli before y2k, it would be legal to use it too.
Kevin
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  #44  
Old 05-09-2012, 12:20 PM
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Stay out of jail. Here's the CGF Shotgun AW ID Flowchart: http://calgunsfoundation.org/resourc...shotgunaw.html

This thread is such a mess that I'm not going to even try and guess at any other angle.

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  #45  
Old 05-09-2012, 1:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Termless View Post
Sorry about the question but don't know how many rounds you can hold in a shotgun.
Brandon has correctly summarized the threadfail here and referred to the chart.

As a separate matter, shotgun tube mags have some significant nondeterminism regarding max capacity.

Many shotguns sold today have tube mags that hold over 10rds when using specialty ammo. This matter was addressed in the CA NRA's Hunt v. Lockyer (later Hunt v Brown) litigation and related depositions of DOJ staff. You simply can't say a shotgun's tube does or does not hold over 10rds - at least for 12Ga, and likely some other common ones.
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  #46  
Old 05-09-2012, 1:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sicarius View Post
There is NO magazine limit for shotguns. The only limitation is if you are not LEO, the importation or manufacturing of a hi capacity magazine law. A LEO can legally use a 20+ drum in a bullet button saiga 12 for example and that is only because he is able to purchase hi cap mags and they never existed before y2k. A magazine tube also counts as a magazine so for giggles if somebody had a 10+ mag tube on a benelli before y2k, it would be legal to use it too.
Kevin
Lowly citizens can also legally find saiga hi-caps (however unlikely that might sound). Since it is legal to use +10 round mags in a fixed mag shotgun, the citizen who legally found his mag could use it in his saiga.

For tube mags, it is my understanding that what ever the manufacturer designates as the shell measurement length, is the "legal" capacity of that mag.

Meaning if you have a gun that the manufacturer says holds 5 2.75" shells, you can legally have a mag tube that holds 10 2.75" shells, no more than 10 2.75" shells. Shell length below 2.75" does not matter. If the tube is measured for 3" shells, you can have a mag that holds 10 3" shells, but no more that 10 3" shells. Shell measurements below 3" do not matter.

But! IANAL!
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  #47  
Old 05-09-2012, 5:29 PM
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If its a drum magazine, then 10 but if it rotates then 20
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  #48  
Old 05-10-2012, 5:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unusedusername View Post
Since this thread is already going to crazytown....

All of the shotguns in California put together can hold a lot of rounds. Probably in the millions of rounds.
No I mean by how many rounds can a shotgun tube can hold.
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  #49  
Old 05-10-2012, 5:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p2rider426 View Post
**** Big 5, if you're in the bay area go to Tracy Rifle and Pistol if you want a deal on a 590A1. Buddy just got his 18.5" one a few weeks ago for about $520 with speed feed, heavy barrel, and ghost ring sight. That's at least $200 under retail. Great service to boot! I believe the difference between the 590 and 590a1 has to do with the A1 having a much more heavy duty barrel, and action/fcg is 100% metal. The normal 590 has plastic trigger guard and such. Basically the difference between getting a full mil spec shotgun (590A1) and a fancied up 500.
Yeah thats along drive to get there. No one knows where I can get one in the San Diego area?
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  #50  
Old 05-10-2012, 5:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Termless View Post
No I mean by how many rounds can a shotgun tube can hold.
how long is the tube?
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  #51  
Old 05-11-2012, 12:02 AM
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There is no ammo count restriction for shotguns. Already having a 10+ tube on a shotgun is legal, installing a 10+ tube on a shotgun(can't add an extension to a less than 10 tube) is legal, using a 10+ magazine is legal. Acquiring a 10+ mag or tube is a different story, but it is legal to possess and use such item in CA.
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  #52  
Old 05-11-2012, 6:41 PM
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From the Department of Justice:

The pdf document quoted and linked below is from the DOJ. Its located starting on page 69 of the document -or- page 79 if you're looking at the page number up at the top of Adobe Reader's tool bar.

Quote:
Assault Weapon Generic Characteristics (Penal Code Section 12276.1)

Generic Characteristics Defining Assault Weapons:

12276.1 (a) Notwithstanding Penal Code section 12276, “assault weapon” shall also mean the following:

Shotguns

(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following:

(A) A folding or telescoping stock.
(B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip.


(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.


(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.


http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pd...s/awguide.pdf?


From the same document a couple of pages down.



Quote:
Large Capacity Magazine Restrictions and Exemptions (Penal Code Section 12020)

A large capacity magazine is defined as “any ammunition feeding device with a capacity to accept more than 10 rounds but shall not be construed to include a feeding device that is permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds nor shall it include any .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device (or, effective January 1, 2002, a tubular magazine contained in a lever-action firearm).” It is important to understand that a large capacity feeding device may be detachable or fixed, and includes any tube ammunition feeding device (other than .22 caliber or, effective January 1, 2002, a tubular magazine contained in a lever-action firearm) that can accommodate more than 10 rounds. A large capacity magazine also includes linked ammunition with more than 10 rounds linked together or an ammunition belt with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.


http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pd...s/awguide.pdf?


This is the page from where the above link is from.

http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/awguide

Last edited by HHGT; 05-11-2012 at 6:49 PM.. Reason: Adding information
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  #53  
Old 05-11-2012, 9:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdberger View Post
In a tube mag??

One billion.

There's no such "10 round limit" in CA for tube mags. There's no such thing as manufacturing an illegal "hi-cap" tube magazine.

Prove me wrong....
I vote with the above.
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  #54  
Old 05-11-2012, 9:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sicarius View Post
A LEO can legally use a 20+ drum in a bullet button saiga 12 for example and that is only because he is able to purchase hi cap mags and they never existed before y2k.

/edit

Missed the "12" in Saiga 12. Fixed 20 round magazine in a semiauto shotgun may not be same creation of an assault weapon as if you were to use a 20 round magazine for a fixed semiauto rifle build. LE is not exempt from the creation of an "assault weapon" sections of 12280 or whatever it was re-codified to be now.


Where this conversation needs to turn is with reference to the UTS-15 seeming how it is coming to the US. Kel-Tec has their domestically produced shotgun that feeds from either tube by the selection of a switch, essentially two 7 round magazines. However the UTS-15 feeds from both tubes alternatively, essentially one 15 round magazine.

Last edited by uglygun; 05-11-2012 at 9:35 PM..
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  #55  
Old 05-11-2012, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdberger

In a tube mag??

One billion.

There's no such "10 round limit" in CA for tube mags. There's no such thing as manufacturing an illegal "hi-cap" tube magazine.

Prove me wrong....

Hello everyone. Glad I stumbled upon this forum. Lots of good discussions.

As for the quote. I believe that is not correct. The law seems to be clear that except for .22 caliber weapons with a tube mag -or- lever actioned rifles with a tube mag. Except for those two exceptions, 10 rounds is the maximum for tubular type magazines or otherwise.


Here's a copy of the law from the DOJ:

Quote:
Large Capacity Magazine Restrictions and Exemptions (Penal Code Section 12020)


A large capacity magazine is defined as “any ammunition feeding device with a capacity to accept more than 10 rounds but shall not be construed to include a feeding device that is permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds nor shall it include any .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device (or, effective January 1, 2002, a tubular magazine contained in a lever-action firearm).” It is important to understand that a large capacity feeding device may be detachable or fixed, and includes any tube ammunition feeding device (other than .22 caliber or, effective January 1, 2002, a tubular magazine contained in a lever-action firearm) that can accommodate more than 10 rounds. A large capacity magazine also includes linked ammunition with more than 10 rounds linked together or an ammunition belt with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.


http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pd...s/awguide.pdf?

.

Last edited by HHGT; 05-11-2012 at 11:52 PM..
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  #56  
Old 05-11-2012, 11:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippies_Have_Guns_Too View Post
Hello everyone. Glad I stumbled upon this forum. Lots of good discussions.

As for the quote. I believe that is not correct. The law seems to be clear that except for .22 caliber weapons with a tube mag -or- lever actioned rifles with a tube mag. Except for those two exceptions, 10 rounds is the maximum for tubular type magazines or otherwise.


Here's a copy of the law from the DOJ:




.
this x100000000 there is such a thing as a hi-cap shotgun tube mag
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  #57  
Old 05-12-2012, 8:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Termless View Post
wow I can not believe we can own a 8+1 shotgun in California. Thanks guys for the help. And I'm also going to test out the 870 and 590A1 like you said.
When I was trying to decide on a home defense shotgun I was down to the 870 and the Mossberg 500. My deciding factor was the location of the safety on the Mossberg. I actually ended up with the 590.
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  #58  
Old 05-12-2012, 9:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mssr. Eleganté View Post
There's still time for 5 more people who don't know what they are talking about to respond to this thread.
Oooh Oooh Oooh!! My turn!
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  #59  
Old 05-13-2012, 2:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mssr. Eleganté View Post
There's still time for 5 more people who don't know what they are talking about to respond to this thread.
Ha! That's a good one ^^^^^^

....but unfortunately so true. At least you picked a humorous way to say. Thanks.
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  #60  
Old 05-13-2012, 2:27 AM
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im a vegetarian
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  #61  
Old 05-13-2012, 2:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Termless View Post
So there is no limit of how many rounds you can hold in a 12 gauge then right? Also What shotgun should I get? Mossberg 590A1 or remington 870 security model?
If you're interested in what I think you may be (Winchester 1897) then you can use the Aguila "mini-shells" that are short and also the slug versions and carry half again as many shells. Centurion also make a mini-shell, but those are 2-inches instead of the 1.5-inch mini-shells or the 1.75 slugs.

What's most important isn't how many shells that can be held - but whether or not they will feed properly.
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  #62  
Old 05-13-2012, 11:09 PM
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Geezus tap dancin....

You people are arguing about TWO DIFFERENT THINGS

NUMBER ONE: the ACQUISITION of magazines above 10rds

NUMBER TWO: the USE of magazines above 10rds

THESE ARE NOT THE SAME THING

carry on
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  #63  
Old 05-16-2012, 5:10 AM
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So does anybody know why the KSG is available here in california since it can hold more then ten rounds? or is it modified to hold only 10 here in Kommifornia?
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  #64  
Old 05-16-2012, 7:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Blaze Kenobi View Post
So does anybody know why the KSG is available here in california since it can hold more then ten rounds? or is it modified to hold only 10 here in Kommifornia?
2 separate magtubes
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  #65  
Old 05-16-2012, 8:16 AM
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The Winchester defender can hold 7+1 3 inch mags.If you use the Aguila 1 3/4 you can 12+1 and if you use the 1 1/2 you can get 2 more.Now is that stock shotgun illegal?That is what happened with the lever guns you can get 10 rds of 357 but a couple more of 38.Does the same logic apply???[yea I know we live in California]
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Old 05-16-2012, 9:27 AM
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Originally Posted by PEZHEAD265 View Post
The Winchester defender can hold 7+1 3 inch mags.If you use the Aguila 1 3/4 you can 12+1 and if you use the 1 1/2 you can get 2 more.Now is that stock shotgun illegal?That is what happened with the lever guns you can get 10 rds of 357 but a couple more of 38.Does the same logic apply???[yea I know we live in California]
was posted above
lever guns don't apply

Large Capacity Magazine Restrictions and Exemptions (Penal Code Section 12020)


A large capacity magazine is defined as “any ammunition feeding device with a capacity to accept more than 10 rounds but shall not be construed to include a feeding device that is permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds nor shall it include any .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device (or, effective January 1, 2002, a tubular magazine contained in a lever-action firearm).” It is important to understand that a large capacity feeding device may be detachable or fixed, and includes any tube ammunition feeding device (other than .22 caliber or, effective January 1, 2002, a tubular magazine contained in a lever-action firearm) that can accommodate more than 10 rounds. A large capacity magazine also includes linked ammunition with more than 10 rounds linked together or an ammunition belt with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.


http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pd...s/awguide.pdf?
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  #67  
Old 05-16-2012, 1:59 PM
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I have a question
what is the standard length to measure the round count?

A 8 2.75in rounds M590A1 can easily loaded up to 13+ round with 2in or 1.5in
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  #68  
Old 05-16-2012, 2:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lugiahua View Post
I have a question
what is the standard length to measure the round count?

A 8 2.75in rounds M590A1 can easily loaded up to 13+ round with 2in or 1.5in
since everyone sells that shotgun in calif, you know the answer
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Old 05-17-2012, 7:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12voltguy View Post
was posted above
lever guns don't apply

Large Capacity Magazine Restrictions and Exemptions (Penal Code Section 12020)


A large capacity magazine is defined as “any ammunition feeding device with a capacity to accept more than 10 rounds but shall not be construed to include a feeding device that is permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds nor shall it include any .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device (or, effective January 1, 2002, a tubular magazine contained in a lever-action firearm).” It is important to understand that a large capacity feeding device may be detachable or fixed, and includes any tube ammunition feeding device (other than .22 caliber or, effective January 1, 2002, a tubular magazine contained in a lever-action firearm) that can accommodate more than 10 rounds. A large capacity magazine also includes linked ammunition with more than 10 rounds linked together or an ammunition belt with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.


http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pd...s/awguide.pdf?
The Winchester defender is a pump shotgun.My question is does the same laws apply to pump shotguns that can take more[then 10]smaller rds like the lever guns.
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Old 05-17-2012, 7:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12voltguy View Post
since everyone sells that shotgun in calif, you know the answer
Thet sell meth pipes in stores all over CA.Does it make them legal to use??We are asking the same question about putting more then 10 smaller rds in a pump shotgun.
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Old 05-17-2012, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PEZHEAD265 View Post
Thet sell meth pipes in stores all over CA.Does it make them legal to use??We are asking the same question about putting more then 10 smaller rds in a pump shotgun.
well what do you think?
if they started selling ar15s no bb's and 30rd mags, how long woukd that last...
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Old 05-17-2012, 8:22 PM
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Originally Posted by 12voltguy View Post
well what do you think?
if they started selling ar15s no bb's and 30rd mags, how long woukd that last...
Thanks anyway but if you do not know the answer please don't respond to the question.ARs with no BBs and 30rd mags have no bearing on the question because they are illegal to sell in the first place.
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  #73  
Old 05-18-2012, 6:51 AM
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I assumed a shotgun was exempt but the law is very clear aboutthe only exemption for tubular magazines:

"nor shall it include any .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device (or, effective January 1, 2002, a tubular magazine contained in a lever-action firearm)"

I see no exemptions for any other tubular magazine. So unless your shotgun is lever action, nothing over 10 rounds. Of course there is nothing in the law to prevent having a 10-round magazine for 3 1/2" shells and then loading it with 2 3/4" to squeeze a few more in. The law says nothing about alternative shorter ammunition. That works for AR-15 magazines that are marked and sold for say 458 SOCOM. But the firearm or magazine needs to be marked for that caliber. The hitch might be that in the shotgun case, you are not using a different caliber. the whole idea that this prevents or reduces crime is ludicrous. But this is California and the ridiculous is the new black.
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  #74  
Old 05-19-2012, 12:53 AM
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Unlike the 10 round limit for semi-auto, centerfire, fixed mag rifles there is no such restriction for semi-auto shotguns. For example, if you legally possess a 20 rd drum for a Saiga 12, you can use it on the shotgun with a mag lock.

Legal acquisition of the mags is a separate issue.
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Old 05-19-2012, 2:38 AM
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Originally Posted by 12voltguy View Post
well what do you think?
if they started selling ar15s no bb's and 30rd mags, how long woukd that last...
ok, but can cops put 10+ 1.5in shell in your new 2.75ni shell shotgun and accuse you for import/manufacture a high cap weapon?
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Old 05-19-2012, 9:29 AM
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ok, but can cops put 10+ 1.5in shell in your new 2.75ni shell shotgun and accuse you for import/manufacture a high cap weapon?
jeez, this thread, as with most of these type of threads has gone to the ridiculous. "but what if this, and what if that"
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  #77  
Old 05-19-2012, 10:16 AM
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jeez, this thread, as with most of these type of threads has gone to the ridiculous. "but what if this, and what if that"
ya I know
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Old 05-19-2012, 11:53 AM
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what if 10 round mags are welded together ?
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Old 05-19-2012, 12:09 PM
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what if 10 round mags are welded together ?
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Old 05-19-2012, 1:49 PM
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Originally Posted by PEZHEAD265 View Post
The Winchester defender can hold 7+1 3 inch mags.If you use the Aguila 1 3/4 you can 12+1 and if you use the 1 1/2 you can get 2 more.Now is that stock shotgun illegal?That is what happened with the lever guns you can get 10 rds of 357 but a couple more of 38.Does the same logic apply???[yea I know we live in California]
No, that is not illegal. The mag tube was measured with longer shells. So the legal capacity is based off of those longer shells. The shorter shells mean Absolutely nothing

Lever guns with tubes are exempt from mag limits meaning, unlike shotguns, if the magazine is measured for 357, you can legally make/import a 15 round mag for that gun (measured with 357). Shotguns with tubes need to stay 10 rounds or under for what the tube was measured for
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Originally Posted by Lugiahua View Post
I have a question
what is the standard length to measure the round count?

A 8 2.75in rounds M590A1 can easily loaded up to 13+ round with 2in or 1.5in
The "standard" is whatever the manufacturer measured the tube for. Meaning if they used the "mini shells" as the standard, you better be able to fit NO MORE than 10 minishells in that tube. most mag tubes use 2.75 or 3" though. But again, if you put shorter shells in your mag tube (shorter shells than the tube was measured with) it means nothing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lugiahua View Post
ok, but can cops put 10+ 1.5in shell in your new 2.75ni shell shotgun and accuse you for import/manufacture a high cap weapon?
Could they arrest you for it? Sure. You can be arrested for ANYTHING. Will the charges stick? Not if you call Calguns Foundation before you open your mouth

Meaning, go ahead and use the shorter shells, using them does nothing to your magazine capacity (legally speaking)
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Last edited by repubconserv; 05-19-2012 at 1:57 PM..
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