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  #1  
Old 06-19-2017, 9:48 AM
MajorCaliber MajorCaliber is offline
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Default Does using a tool to adjust stock length = featureless?

After searching, I'm still unclear about what qualifies as a fixed vs adjustable stock for the purposes of a featureless build. I saw a stock at a retailer that looked similar to a standard M4 adjustable stock, but instead of the lever the releases the adjustment lock, uses a hex head cap screw to lock the stock into one of about 6-8 possible lengths. The dealer, and I know that is not always the best source of information, said that the DOJ considered this non-adjustable because a tool was required to change the length. I'm interested in this design because while I have no need for minute by minute adjustability, I'm new to AR's and I don't really know yet what length I want to settle on.

Does this explanation hold water? Does the requirement to use a tool for adjusting the length qualify this for a featureless build?
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:51 AM
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Good question, in this state.

I would say that requiring a tool to adjust the length of pull would make the stock NOT a 'collapsible or folding stock', since it cannot simply be collapsed or folded by manipulating a latch.

But we have seen where this line of thinking has gone with things such as magazine releases.
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Old 06-19-2017, 11:03 AM
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What stock is this?
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Old 06-19-2017, 11:23 AM
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When will we see the California Buttstock Locking Device...the Butt Button?

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Old 06-19-2017, 11:43 AM
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+1 for the Butt Button, LOL

I do not recall the manufacturer of the stock. It is available at Trident Gunsmithing in San Diego.
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:04 PM
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It's right on the edge. I personally would not do this.

I will point out in many of these kits you can unscrew the screw by hand telescope the stock and the twist the screw a turn or two and set it. Not ok.

Roll pin, recessed screw, set screw. Nothing the can protrude out and be set or unset with the fingers.
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:28 PM
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I don't know if this is the exact one I saw, but this model from AR Depot shows the same cap screw concept.
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorCaliber View Post
After searching, I'm still unclear about what qualifies as a fixed vs adjustable stock for the purposes of a featureless build. I saw a stock at a retailer that looked similar to a standard M4 adjustable stock, but instead of the lever the releases the adjustment lock, uses a hex head cap screw to lock the stock into one of about 6-8 possible lengths. The dealer, and I know that is not always the best source of information, said that the DOJ considered this non-adjustable because a tool was required to change the length. I'm interested in this design because while I have no need for minute by minute adjustability, I'm new to AR's and I don't really know yet what length I want to settle on.

Does this explanation hold water? Does the requirement to use a tool for adjusting the length qualify this for a featureless build?
Does it telescope or fold? Those words matter. Nothing else.
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorCaliber View Post
I don't know if this is the exact one I saw, but this model from AR Depot shows the same cap screw concept.
If that's how it works, you still have a telescope (imo) anytime you loosen the cap. Not worth the chance to me.
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:34 PM
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CA PC 30515 (a)(1)(C) A folding or telescoping stock.

It can be adjustable, it just can't "telescope"

So if your stock has the temporal cognitive effect of making it seem like the 2016 assault weapon ban was less recent than it was and the 1989 assault weapon ban seem more recent than it was then it's illegal.
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:45 PM
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Well it telescopes, but only if you remove the bolt, adjust the stock, and replace the bolt, in the same sense that a pinned stock telescopes of you drill out the pin and re-drill and re-pin. I guess it comes down to just what tools and procedures are required to make it telescope.

To address the issue of taking out the bolt with fingers, I could make sure the outside of the cap screws have any knurling ground off if present.
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:49 PM
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I'd pin it.
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Old 06-19-2017, 3:18 PM
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The AR Depot one appears to support telescoping. It's knurled so it can be manually adjusted by hand. Nothing in the rules make exception to the rules for use of a tool.
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Old 06-20-2017, 9:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therealnickb View Post
If that's how it works, you still have a telescope (imo) anytime you loosen the cap. Not worth the chance to me.
Not to be argumentative, and I appreciate EVERYBODY'S input, but that logic makes no sense to me. I know logic is generally incompatible with CA gun laws, but if the fact that some form of telescoping action occurs when it is not fully assembled, just can't be a prohibited characteristic because just about every stock made for an AR, including the standard military A2 stock, "telescopes" over the buffer tube in the process of assembly or disassembly. I can't imagine that anybody would call the A2 stock a prohibited telescoping stock.
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Old 06-20-2017, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorCaliber View Post
Not to be argumentative, and I appreciate EVERYBODY'S input, but that logic makes no sense to me. I know logic is generally incompatible with CA gun laws, but if the fact that some form of telescoping action occurs when it is not fully assembled, just can't be a prohibited characteristic because just about every stock made for an AR, including the standard military A2 stock, "telescopes" over the buffer tube in the process of assembly or disassembly. I can't imagine that anybody would call the A2 stock a prohibited telescoping stock.
Not having actually seen the stock, perhaps I misunderstand how it works.

Does the stock fall off the buffer without the screw in place?
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Old 06-20-2017, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorCaliber View Post
I don't know if this is the exact one I saw, but this model from AR Depot shows the same cap screw concept.
In your second picture, can you adjust the stock without completely removing the screw? And as above, does the stock fall off the tube when you loosen the screw?

Last edited by therealnickb; 06-20-2017 at 10:24 AM..
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  #17  
Old 06-20-2017, 12:24 PM
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If you use tools to asemble the rifle and stock, it shouldn't be illegal to use the same tools to adjust the parts. It's a loophole the Gav will have to fix later.
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Old 06-20-2017, 1:17 PM
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Most traditional fixed stocks like have only a single position.

The problem with a thumb screw is you can (depending on the modification) use it _exactly_ the same as the original lever. It's a twist pin instead of a lever pin. Stock will telescope in and out without falling off the buffer tube, fully adjustable.
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Old 06-20-2017, 8:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therealnickb View Post
In your second picture, can you adjust the stock without completely removing the screw? And as above, does the stock fall off the tube when you loosen the screw?
I don't know if it comes completely off or just slides completely to the rear if you completely remove the screw.
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Old 06-20-2017, 9:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorCaliber View Post
I don't know if it comes completely off or just slides completely to the rear if you completely remove the screw.
IMO, that's a key point.
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Old 06-21-2017, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trailtundra View Post
When will we see the California Buttstock Locking Device...the Butt Button?

That's an awesome idea. I wonder what the legality of it is, though.
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  #22  
Old 06-21-2017, 6:58 AM
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http://www.rangeroll.com/stocklok-info/

I have one of these- even if I leave the screw so loose so I can loosen it with my bare fingers /I don't do that, will be lost is seconds/, in order to change the length of pull, I would still need to disassemble the stock so I can move the nut to another position. I believe this is legal. Your opinions please!
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  #23  
Old 06-21-2017, 10:32 AM
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Great question, and I don't exactly know the answer. My opinion, though, is that if it requires a tool to adjust it, it's fine, with the caveat that you CAN'T ever loosen the adjustment screw (or whatever) while the firearm is assembled and functional. Otherwise, during the short period of time while you're adjusting it, you've got an Assault Weapon. So my recommendation is to separate the receivers before you make the adjustment, then re-attach them after you've locked the screw (or whatever) back into place.

But, I'm not a lawyer so don't listen to me But I would personally feel comfortable doing that with one of my own guns.
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I really hope the Office of Administrative Law isn't as stupid as DOJ thinks they are.
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Old 06-21-2017, 10:50 AM
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What they want is a one piece stock...
non adjustable (without a cut saw) length of pull

So everyone's rifle is sooooo long you can't conceal it...


BTW make it single shot and have an action that requires 30
minutes of effort and tools to load a second round into...

This way a 50 round box of ammo will last about 5 daylight sessions
And there will be no need for mass ammo storage or internet purchasing

There won't be a need for cease fires at the range
as everyone's weapon will be clear for 30 minutes
while your range buddy goes out to hang a clean "shoot n see" for ya

Just need to have everyone fire their single boolit within 1 minute
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Old 06-21-2017, 11:05 AM
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What about a Magpul PRS? Strict reading would indicate it is evil "telescoping". I found a way to internally pin the length of pull with the ability to reverse, but it's a PIA to do.


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Old 06-21-2017, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade Gunner View Post
What about a Magpul PRS? Strict reading would indicate it is evil "telescoping". I found a way to internally pin the length of pull with the ability to reverse, but it's a PIA to do.
I've seen arguments that go both ways on that.

My opinion (again, worth 2 cents and not a penny more) is that a PRS is a fixed stock with an adjustable buttpad, NOT a telescoping stock.

The stock itself is one piece, and cannot move or adjust. Only the buttpad is adjustable.

Otherwise, any squishy buttpad would make a stock "telescoping" because the LOP changes by some small amount when it squishes against your shoulder.

If a limbsaver buttpad is legal, so too should be a PRS buttpad, IMO.
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Color? Barrel length? Caliber? Change whatever you want, not needed for firearm identification.
Bullet button? Absolutely necessary for firearm identification!

I really hope the Office of Administrative Law isn't as stupid as DOJ thinks they are.
On 6/26, we shall see.


Last edited by cockedandglocked; 06-21-2017 at 11:16 AM..
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Old 06-21-2017, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade Gunner View Post
What about a Magpul PRS? Strict reading would indicate it is evil "telescoping". I found a way to internally pin the length of pull with the ability to reverse, but it's a PIA to do.


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I have Luth stock /link bellow/. I replaced the length of pull adjustment knob with bolt and nylon lock nut. No way to loosen it with bare hands. And, just to be extra safe, will pin it somehow. I hate grey area, but this is all we get in CA...

https://www.luth-ar.com/product/mba-1/
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Old 06-21-2017, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NIKSD View Post
I have Luth stock /link bellow/. I replaced the length of pull adjustment knob with bolt and nylon lock nut. No way to loosen it with bare hands. And, just to be extra safe, will pin it somehow. I hate grey area, but this is all we get in CA...



https://www.luth-ar.com/product/mba-1/


I'm with you. The length of pull issue bothers me because a shoot both bench a prone requiring different adjustment of about an inch. For this grey area, I don't feel like being a potential felon.


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Old 06-21-2017, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NIKSD View Post
I have Luth stock /link bellow/. I replaced the length of pull adjustment knob with bolt and nylon lock nut. No way to loosen it with bare hands. And, just to be extra safe, will pin it somehow. I hate grey area, but this is all we get in CA...

https://www.luth-ar.com/product/mba-1/
Perhaps better safe than sorry, but for what it's worth this is in the product description for that stock:
  • Fully Adjustable Buttstock assembly to mount to a rifle (A2 Round Standard Tube) – This is our fixed stock
  • Additional 1″ height on cheek rest
  • Additional 1 1/16″ length of pull with extended length buttplate
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Color? Barrel length? Caliber? Change whatever you want, not needed for firearm identification.
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Old 06-21-2017, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
Perhaps better safe than sorry, but for what it's worth this is in the product description for that stock:
  • Fully Adjustable Buttstock assembly to mount to a rifle (A2 Round Standard Tube) This is our fixed stock
  • Additional 1″ height on cheek rest
  • Additional 1 1/16″ length of pull with extended length buttplate
Yes, and somebody may argue "Fully Adjustable Buttstock assembly" may mean you can readily adjust length of pull= adjustable fixed stock. Hey, this is CA, everything is possible.
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Old 06-21-2017, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by NIKSD View Post
Hey, this is CA, everything is possible.
Indeed it is, and nobody here would ever claim that our laws make any sense.

What's funny is that the intent of the law is clearly to try to prevent people from making their rifles more concealable - and yet, it's perfectly legal to fix a telescoping stock to the shortest position. Further evidence that these laws are nothing more than feel-good legislation to burden only law-abiding people.
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Color? Barrel length? Caliber? Change whatever you want, not needed for firearm identification.
Bullet button? Absolutely necessary for firearm identification!

I really hope the Office of Administrative Law isn't as stupid as DOJ thinks they are.
On 6/26, we shall see.


Last edited by cockedandglocked; 06-21-2017 at 11:48 AM..
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  #32  
Old 06-21-2017, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
Indeed it is, and nobody here would ever claim that our laws make any sense.

What's funny is that the intent of the law is clearly to try to prevent people from making their rifles more concealable - and yet, it's perfectly legal to fix a telescoping stock to the shortest position
We already have LOA requirements, the adjustable stocks are here to ban AR type rifles. My Luth stock is on 20" barreled rifle. Even fully IN, concealment will be interesting ordeal.
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Old 06-21-2017, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
I've seen arguments that go both ways on that.

My opinion (again, worth 2 cents and not a penny more) is that a PRS is a fixed stock with an adjustable buttpad, NOT a telescoping stock.

The stock itself is one piece, and cannot move or adjust. Only the buttpad is adjustable.

Otherwise, any squishy buttpad would make a stock "telescoping" because the LOP changes by some small amount when it squishes against your shoulder.

If a limbsaver buttpad is legal, so too should be a PRS buttpad, IMO.
To go further, Magpul makes an extended rubber buttpad for the PRS, add that and you "extend" the stock. I did that to my fixed carbine stocks as it also fits those.
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Old 06-21-2017, 12:46 PM
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Watch for a telescoping buttpad ban in 2018.

It's for the children
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Color? Barrel length? Caliber? Change whatever you want, not needed for firearm identification.
Bullet button? Absolutely necessary for firearm identification!

I really hope the Office of Administrative Law isn't as stupid as DOJ thinks they are.
On 6/26, we shall see.

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