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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 06-15-2018, 9:47 AM
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Default Bad guy down

I am curious as to others thoughts on this one. Unless the shooter feared for his life or others, he should be held accountable for his actions as any of us would be.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...523-story.html
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:07 AM
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These scenarios and how they are presented by the media are extremely difficult to determine guilt or innocence.

What’s annoying to me is how those responding to the unlawful acts of others are scrutinized by the media and others. Shouldn’t people committing crimes be the ones that are scrutinized and blamed for their actions?
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  #3  
Old 06-15-2018, 10:08 AM
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If they are not or no longer a threat to your life or someone else, you can not shoot em.

You are going to shoot a guy driving away in your car? Lets say you hit him, other then you feeling like you did the world a favor and feel better what have you accomplished, you have to live with killing another person, scumbag or not, you have the chance to end up in prison for many years, losing your job and home, ruining the car you are trying to stop from being driven off with broken glass, holes and blood contamination etc. and hell, maybe you have a stray bullet go acoss the street, through a wall and into a kid. And all with no threat to your life.
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:28 AM
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Illinois has protection of property against forcible felony law

Quote:
(720 ILCS 5/7-3) (from Ch. 38, par. 7-3)
Sec. 7-3. Use of force in defense of other property.
(a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate such other's trespass on or other tortious or criminal interference with either real property (other than a dwelling) or personal property, lawfully in his possession or in the possession of another who is a member of his immediate family or household or of a person whose property he has a legal duty to protect. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(b) In no case shall any act involving the use of force justified under this Section give rise to any claim or liability brought by or on behalf of any person acting within the definition of "aggressor" set forth in Section 7-4 of this Article, or the estate, spouse, or other family member of such a person, against the person or estate of the person using such justified force, unless the use of force involves willful or wanton misconduct.
(Source: P.A. 93-832, eff. 7-28-04.)
Quote:
(720 ILCS 5/2-8) (from Ch. 38, par. 2-8)
Sec. 2-8. "Forcible felony". "Forcible felony" means treason, first degree murder, second degree murder, predatory criminal sexual assault of a child, aggravated criminal sexual assault, criminal sexual assault, robbery, burglary, residential burglary, aggravated arson, arson, aggravated kidnaping, kidnaping, aggravated battery resulting in great bodily harm or permanent disability or disfigurement and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.
(Source: P.A. 88-277; 89-428, eff. 12-13-95; 89-462, eff. 5-29-96.)

Quote:
(720 ILCS 5/18-3)
Sec. 18-3. Vehicular hijacking.
(a) A person commits vehicular hijacking when he or she knowingly takes a motor vehicle from the person or the immediate presence of another by the use of force or by threatening the imminent use of force.
(b) Sentence. Vehicular hijacking is a Class 1 felony.
So if the kid made threats or if he drove towards the vehicle owner before going around him....

Not saying the guy was morally right for shooting a guy driving away and posing no more threat to him, but legally he may be justified.
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  #5  
Old 06-15-2018, 4:52 PM
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Interesting article, OP. I wholeheartedly agree with your statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ltzgolf View Post
Unless the shooter feared for his life or others, he should be held accountable for his actions as any of us would be.
According to the article, the shooter fired his weapon at a man in the act of unlawfully commandeering his vehicle, who was then shot while pulling away from the shooter. Car thief was unarmed and offered no mortal threat to the shooter, again, per the article. Every story sounds good until you hear the other side, but if true, this shooting was morally indefensible. I am shocked that this shooter isn't standing trial for murder. He ought to be.
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Old 06-15-2018, 4:55 PM
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meh, they used to hang horse thieves. Maybe we should get back to bad guys having fear of death.
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  #7  
Old 06-15-2018, 5:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ltzgolf View Post
I am curious as to others thoughts on this one. Unless the shooter feared for his life or others, he should be held accountable for his actions as any of us would be.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...523-story.html
From the article:
Quote:
According to a police report, the Jeep was parked on the right side of the street and the teen was turning left to pull away from the curb when he was shot. "Vehicle starts to move forward. (The firefighter) moves to the left and draws his concealed firearm and fires one shot through the driver’s window.”
So, if I am on the left side of the vehicle and he starts turning left towards me then a case could be made that I feared for my life. Not to mention as stated above IL does have a forcible felony law that justifies a shooting.

I'd say they made the right call in not charging the shooter.
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Old 06-15-2018, 5:16 PM
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Not the "cleanest" of shoots, but "all's well that ends well."

LOTS of BGs, whether CCW holders or not, get away with "crimes."

Charles Macklin learned a final lesson in life: "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes...."

Too bad it sounds like his survivors/family hasn't learned that lesson. I doubt whether his "community" has either....

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Originally Posted by superdave50 View Post
meh, they used to hang horse thieves. Maybe we should get back to bad guys having fear of death.
Bingo!
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Old 06-16-2018, 9:20 AM
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He should be charged. So far there is no evidence that the shooter feared for his life.
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Old 06-16-2018, 9:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
Charles Macklin learned a final lesson in life: "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes...." :
My thoughts exactly! The only person responsible for Charles Maclin's death was Charles Maclin.

Would I have shot him? Probably not, but I find no fault in the guy that did. Had Mr. Maclin, not been steeling a car, he would still be alive.
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  #11  
Old 06-16-2018, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewy65 View Post
He should be charged. So far there is no evidence that the shooter feared for his life.
Your opinion has no bearing. IL state law does. In this case, it was considered a justified use of force.
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  #12  
Old 06-16-2018, 10:52 AM
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Don’t want to get shot? Well, we know the answer in this case....
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Old 06-16-2018, 1:28 PM
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Criminal liability is probably not what he should be concerned with. He'll probably avoid charges, but I'd be willing to bet the wrongful death lawsuit against him will be successful.
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Old 06-16-2018, 2:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomk556 View Post
Criminal liability is probably not what he should be concerned with. He'll probably avoid charges, but I'd be willing to bet the wrongful death lawsuit against him will be successful.
Nope, IL is pretty good here too, no liability. See the last sentence of the first quote I posted above.
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Old 06-16-2018, 2:55 PM
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Don't confuse the decision not to charge, which to often is political, with the law. For instance, Comey found no reason to charge Hillary.
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Old 06-16-2018, 4:13 PM
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That kid got what he deserved. Making an example of thieves is a good thing and I’m glad the local law sided with the shooter. Excessive force is the way to stop crime, when dumb kids and crooks can’t use or don’t have common sense. They’re a disease in society and they deserve to be harshly eradicated.
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Old 06-16-2018, 4:35 PM
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“When has it ever become legal to shoot someone because they’re pulling off in your car?” [the BG’s older sister] asked. “Even if (Macklin) did that, if he did steal the car. You’ve got insurance — let him go to jail. I would’ve rather had to get a call to go bail him out of jail than to get a phone call that he’s dead.”

She wonders why her brother is dead.
She, and possibly her parents, failed in raising her brother into an upstanding citizen.
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  #18  
Old 06-16-2018, 9:41 PM
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Moral of the story is, Don't steal cars. But I would not advocate lethal force to defend property.
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Old 06-18-2018, 7:21 AM
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I will never be in that situation (the bad guy). He put himself in harm's way and paid the price. His family should be grieving but not blaming someone else for the bad guy's demise. Whether the car is insured or not is not the issue here.
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Old 06-18-2018, 7:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Springfield45 View Post
Moral of the story is, Don't steal cars. But I would not advocate lethal force to defend property.
If it is legal to do so I have no problems with it. It acts as a deterrent to others. For those that are saying it is a bad shoot and the shooter be charged, per IL law it was a good shoot. Not every State is like CA where criminals have more rights than the victims.
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Old 06-18-2018, 8:04 AM
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I don’t know about Illinois law, but when I was taking my CCW class in Florida, the instructor listed the following scenarios where Florida law authorizes deadly force (in addition to the usual fear of death or grievous bodily harm, etc.).

-carjacking
-attempted arson

However, when I think “carjacking,” I think of a vehicle being stolen with the driver (or other occuoants) inside. Maybe Illinois law is different.

Having said that—if he hadn’t stolen the car, he wouldn’t have been shot. A good rule of thumb is, “If it’s not yours, leave it alone.”
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Old 06-18-2018, 8:06 AM
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“Shouldn’t people committing crimes be the ones that are scrutinized and blamed for their actions?”

We live in a post-modern world.
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