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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #41  
Old 05-20-2018, 4:57 PM
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Originally Posted by tuna quesadilla View Post
CCW doesn't make you a cop. Client should have dialed 911 from the safety of his car and, if confronted by the homeless man, driven away rapidly.
I understand each and every opinion posted about what they would do under the circumstances or who they would protect. Each person has his or her own limitations, morals, standards, motivations, etc. I look to the story of the airliner landing in the Hudson -- when the FAA had their pilots run the simulation -- knowing what was about to happen, they had time to really consider their options and they were able to land on pavement. When the human factor was added in (time to consider the event, make a plan and implement), they crashed. While I was not at the Incident, I believe that the woman may have been badly injured but for the intervention.
I am one of those folks who would help almost anyone -- it is a personal choice. I never applied for a CCW because it is a decision and responsibility I was not willing to take. Martial Arts and other options have been my gold standard for years; however, I am reconsidering for several reasons. I am not sure if a pistol or taser or both would be things I would carry.
I would bet that a cop arriving on scene would have pulled his piece and, when confronted, probably would have put 17 down range. Revoking this man's CCW is well beyond reason.
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  #42  
Old 05-20-2018, 5:01 PM
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Originally Posted by hoghammer View Post
I understand each and every opinion posted about what they would do under the circumstances or who they would protect. Each person has his or her own limitations, morals, standards, motivations, etc. I look to the story of the airliner landing in the Hudson -- when the FAA had their pilots run the simulation -- knowing what was about to happen, they had time to really consider their options and they were able to land on pavement. When the human factor was added in (time to consider the event, make a plan and implement), they crashed. While I was not at the Incident, I believe that the woman may have been badly injured but for the intervention.
I am one of those folks who would help almost anyone -- it is a personal choice. I never applied for a CCW because it is a decision and responsibility I was not willing to take. Martial Arts and other options have been my gold standard for years; however, I am reconsidering for several reasons. I am not sure if a pistol or taser or both would be things I would carry.
I would bet that a cop arriving on scene would have pulled his piece and, when confronted, probably would have put 17 down range. Revoking this man's CCW is well beyond reason.
Please see my post.

Separate WHY he acted, and whether it was justified, with why he was revoked.

There is a specifc requirement in OC that incidents involving your ccw be reported within a time frame. He didnít do that. Thatís what happened. It isnít in any way connected to whether or not he acted properly.
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  #43  
Old 05-20-2018, 6:18 PM
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Originally Posted by hoghammer View Post
I would bet that a cop arriving on scene would have pulled his piece and, when confronted, probably would have put 17 down range. Revoking this man's CCW is well beyond reason.
And if he decided to not to report the incident to his superiors he would have been suspended then fired. If he wanted a chance at getting his job back he'd need a lawyer and a hearing...
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  #44  
Old 05-20-2018, 8:16 PM
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Originally Posted by kriller134 View Post
And Iím perfectly fine with my choices. Itís not my responsibility to play hero. My family depends on me and Iím not going to jeopardize my safety, freedom, or financial stability for someone I donít know.
Giving or not giving assistance is personal choice.

I was just pointing out that regardless of your decision, there are mental and emotional consequences you'll have to live with even if you do not assist. Assisting someone that is yelling for help while being assaulted isn't "playing hero.". In my opinion, It's just doing the right thing.
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  #45  
Old 05-21-2018, 4:45 PM
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Originally Posted by kriller134 View Post
Thatís why I have strict personal rules on when I would engage someone. My ccw is for me and my family. Iíll be a good witness in other situations unless itís children being harmed.
That's your CHOICE. Many people have similar views as your's but don't even make an exception for children or other helpless people. Personally, I will do anything in my power to stop a criminal who is raping a 4 year old girl, an 80 year old woman or even a 25 year old who is mentally or physically challenged. My morals and ethics would not let me just call 911 and sit there watching and being a good witness.
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  #46  
Old 05-26-2018, 10:14 AM
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You have to carefully follow all the conditions and guidelines of your IA including how you identify yourself to LE, and when/how you report an incident. This situation seems IMHO a wobbler in terms of legitimacy to intervene and brandish a firearm. When I was trained we went over situations where deadly force was justified and intervention was justified, such as a reasonably believed attacker using what could be reasonably understood as potentially deadly or grave injurious force against another did fall under a justifiable situation to intervene. I'd bet in the case here though the Sheriff doesn't like the idea of CCW holders getting in the middle of domestic disputes or fights to resolve them, and the failure to report the incident correctly was an easy way to revoke the permit.

HERE IS MY OPINION/TRAINING ON USING MY WEAPON AND INTERVENTION THIS IS MOSTLY UNRELATED TO THE OPs POST

Like others have said and this is so important, I was taught to never ever think of myself as or behave like I am the police, or to believe I have a duty to intervene. We are civilians who have weapons we can use as a last resort, at least it seems like that's how the state sees it.

All that said, there are steps to take before showing your weapon if you are going to get into the middle of something like that, the first of which is determining if it is most reasonable to try de-escalation techniques, or if it's actually necessary to keep your distance and call 911 to observe and report. I think all interventions should be minimal, the least necessary "force" or "intimidation" to make the situation safe when police are not yet present. De-escalation techniques should be employed when encountering someone rather than being aggressive, at least that's a way to usually get someone to chill out. De escalation techniques like using a calm voice and approaching with your hands showing, asking if everything is ok, and just using common sense language and non threatening body language to try and chill out a situation. "hey come on please stop, please lets calm this down before the cops show up, I know you're pissed I get it, it's ok lets just please stop and walk away" etc. This isn't always possible but it's a good first move before 911 in my opinion if a situation isn't too ugly yet and you're stuck in the middle of it.

It's always good to call 911 though and follow their directions if possible if a situation is violent and escalating. The last thing I would want is to be in a situation like that with no police coming, so that's why you might as well get a holster for your phone and keep it charged, I'm joking about the holster but it's gotta be a step we take ASAP. I'd much rather try and yell at a person and tell them the police are coming and to stop, or to even step it up if necessary and tell them I'm armed and they need to stop, than to actually take my weapon out of my holster or to point my weapon at a person. This is California, not Texas, I'm not so sure things will always pan out so well legally. I don't know about you guys but I have a career, a reputation, a life, and I don't want to make an unjustified mistake that would ruin that.

I'm not sure if others agree with me on this or not, but I believe it's very important to try ALL OTHER MEANS to stop a bad situation that would be seen as inappropriate to flee or ignore, before taking out your weapon. Now if the attacker is armed with a firearm, I'm switching up some steps and going to have my weapon out of my holster and aimed, but I'll be on the phone with 911, and then I'm going to give commands to drop the weapon, and if the person makes a threatening move toward me or an innocent person, or is actively shooting, I'm going to shoot to stop.

My personal rule is that my weapon stays in my holster until there is someone else using force or threatening to use force by a means that is well established as being potentially deadly. Threatening my life or someone elses's life with a knife or blade weapon and or making jabbing, swinging, or stabbing motions with it, or attacking people with it. With a firearm, a person threatening my life or someone else's life, aiming a firearm at me or others, shooting a firearm at me or others.

If it's an active shooter in a totally unexpected and sudden situation like we hear about in the news, who is actively shooting people, I might give them a chance to drop the gun but it depends on the context, and odds are I'm probably just going to shoot that murderer as soon as I can and not stop till they are either giving up, unarmed, or are no longer a threat.

The other thing is context, you want to be sure you aren't seeing another CCW or off duty police who are actually taking down the "bad guy," so if you hear gunfire and don't see the shooting but then decide to try and help and see a person down and another holding a gun, that doesn't mean that person holding a gun is for sure a "bad guy" so context is important. We were also trained to be sure to yell to people to call 911, to be sure to yell that you are a good guy, that the bad guy is located in x position or is down, and that after a shooting when it's safe you should holster your weapon.

Then you report immediately that an incident occurred, and you contact your lawyer before you talk more about things with investigators while being clear with them you are going to fully cooperate with the investigation after contacting your attorney.
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  #47  
Old 06-04-2018, 12:16 PM
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Thanks, Greg,
that was a wonderful and very helpful post to hopefully many of us.
I too feel that drawing my weapon is only justified (1) the moment I feel that my life or the life of the person next to me is potentially threatened, or (2) there is an active shooter situation. It's important to keep one's cool in a situation where the heartbeat is going on overdrive.
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  #48  
Old 06-09-2018, 3:06 PM
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Pardon me for my stupidity, please, but the police were there, right? They interviewed the client, and completed a report. Is that not enough notification? One has to report the incident to a third party? I'm seriously just trying to figure this out.

Safe shooting and tight groups,

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  #49  
Old 06-09-2018, 3:32 PM
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Originally Posted by SlowDrifter View Post
Pardon me for my stupidity, please, but the police were there, right? They interviewed the client, and completed a report. Is that not enough notification? One has to report the incident to a third party? I'm seriously just trying to figure this out.

Safe shooting and tight groups,

SD
The terms of most LTCs require the carrier to notify his issuing authority whenever the person has to draw the weapon or has any official contact with an LEO. The cops that the licensee was interfacing with during the incident may not be from the same department as his issuing authority.

The other thing to take from this is to not pull your weapon unless you absolutely have to shoot to save your life or someone else's life. Your carry gun is not for threatening bad people.
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  #50  
Old 06-09-2018, 4:06 PM
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Originally Posted by SlowDrifter View Post
Pardon me for my stupidity, please, but the police were there, right? They interviewed the client, and completed a report. Is that not enough notification? One has to report the incident to a third party? I'm seriously just trying to figure this out.

Safe shooting and tight groups,

SD
Most IAs want you to report the incident directly to the CCW unit. (Usually the investigator whom you dealt with while applying)

In response to OP and his client. Iíd be willing to bet, if he had notified his IA in the correct time frame, heíd still have his CCW. I donít think he did anything wrong in the confrontation. If some guy were beating on my wife while in a parking lot and I was not present, Iíd sure hope one of you guys would intervene in some fashion.
Calling 911 should have been first step if you are not in immediate danger.
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  #51  
Old 06-09-2018, 4:48 PM
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Ooh! I think I understand. The responding police may not be your issuing agency, so you have to report it to your IA, even though they have your card in their hand and are filling out a report. Hmmmm...Welcome to the 90's? That's friggin' rediculous to have to report a police contact after a police contact. Sorry, I get this, it just sounds like a trap to me.

Safe shooting and tight groups,

SD
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  #52  
Old 06-09-2018, 8:03 PM
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The problem with attempting to intervene in a situation that one comes upon is you do not know exactly what is happening. In the situation of the OP, this was a DV case and most LEOs will tell you these tend to be the most dangerous calls to respond to. Mix in drugs and they become more volatile. It is hard to watch someone get beaten or murdered especially when those of us who want to do the right thing know we can step in and make a difference.

The problem is the legal system will put your actions under a microscope and make a decision based on what should have been done in a perfect world. Under stress, nobody can perform flawlessly and nobody will know for sure what might have been the outcome if different course of action had been taken.

This is why the majority of CCW classes emphasize the most conservative course of action that will provide you with the greatest legal protection. First, do your best to stay away from any situation that would require you to use a gun for SD. Second, only use your gun in the defense of your life or the lives of your loved ones. Using it to save the lives of strangers can create all sorts of problems. In the worst case you can be held legally liable both civilly and criminally and end up in prison and owing millions of dollars in legal fees and penalties.

In defending the life of a stranger you end up loosing the ability to provide for and protect your family. The instructor that taught my class was a retired FBI agent and attorney and his question was can you live with yourself watching a stranger die without intervening to stop it and just being a good witness knowing that you will still be around to provide for and protect your family? If you can accept that, you can handle the responsibility of a CCW. If you are willing to sacrifice your family for the stranger, you need to leave now because you cannot handle the responsibility of a CCW. That is just the reality of life in our country today. BGs have more rights than the people who are defending themselves from the BGs.

I learned this lesson last fall. I had a student who was easily twice the size of another student jump the other student in class and start beating her. He had a prior history of doing this and had beaten a few students the previous year so badly they ended up in the hospital with serious injuries for weeks or months. One was in a coma for over 3 months. This student was 5'10" and over 200 pounds. He lifted weights regularly.

I pulled him off of the female student and shoved him out the door. I did not hurt him. He went crazy and eventually it took 4 security people to contain him and take him to the office. During his fit, he broke several windows with his fists, attacked several staff people, injured a few of them, injured several students that were out of class, and caused other damage.

The student was never suspended or disciplined in any way. I was the one that the district took action against because I physically touched the student. The education code is clear, as a teacher, I am allowed to physically contact students to protect myself or other students from harm. I used the minimal amount of force. I picked the student up in a bear hug from behind, took him to the door and deposited him outside. The outside cameras caught this. Students filmed this from the inside and caught him kicking the female student in the head when she was on the ground and then me bear hugging from behind and moving him to the outside and closing the door behind him.

The district attempted to have me fired for cause and got the kid's parent's to file criminal assault charges. It took 3 months and 2 attorneys to clear everything up. The DA decided there were no criminal charges to be filed and since I had an attorney and I was not talking, and the videos that had gone viral contradicted the parent's and student's statements this was just a waste of time.

My district decided it was costing them too much in attorney's fees to deal with a situation caused by a principal with a grudge and they did not want to pay out more in another settlement to another teacher wrongfully accused by a principal so they told the principal to settle and drop it.

I did get it settled but had to sign paperwork stating that I would never again physically intervene to break up a student fight again. I have not and the number of fights in my room have greatly increased because students know I can only call the office and it takes about 10 minutes for someone to get there.

The only good side of my union was paying the 150 hours of attorney time I needed. During those stressful few months I lost 15 pounds and had to take 20 days off of work to deal with the legal issues. Life sucked.

Now, imagine if I had used a gun to defend the life of a complete stranger and it blew up in my face? It would not be over in months but it would take years. Sorry, I am not going to put my wife and son through that. I already have a few chronic health issues.

I will call 911. I will do what I can to intervene while staying safe myself. I have heard and read too many stories of other intervening and things going sideways because the person intervening did not have the full story and ended up helping the BG or got blind sided. Sometimes it is better to wait and observe than to react immediately and get caught in a trap.
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  #53  
Old 06-09-2018, 8:07 PM
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[QUOTE=SlowDrifter;21744009]Ooh! I think I understand. The responding police may not be your issuing agency, so you have to report it to your IA, even though they have your card in their hand and are filling out a report. Hmmmm...Welcome to the 90's? That's friggin' rediculous to have to report a police contact after a police contact. Sorry, I get this, it just sounds like a trap to me.

Safe shooting and tight groups,

SD[/QUOTE

Really doesnít matter what you think of the rules.

The permit holder read, and agreed to the stipulations of the permit.

How is this a ďtrapĒ?
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  #54  
Old 06-14-2018, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by BONECUTTER View Post
...best to just call 911.
This^^^

Plus....I do not help anyone that dont own a gun. People with guns should not help people without guns. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQOHBSuY7TM

Also, Did you know cutting your penis off also makes you a Hero?

Dont be a hero BIG GUY....

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  #55  
Old 06-23-2018, 8:42 AM
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I wrote about it here once, but the one time I drew my gun in public was to defend myself. It actually started as a fight (and a righteous assault with a deadly weapon/knife) between two transients when the primary aggressor noticed that I was watching and turned his attention on me. Up to that point I had just planned to sit back and be a good witness, just as many of you here indicated. Ain't worth being a hero.
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Old 06-23-2018, 9:28 AM
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I wrote about it here once, but the one time I drew my gun in public was to defend myself. It actually started as a fight (and a righteous assault with a deadly weapon/knife) between two transients when the primary aggressor noticed that I was watching and turned his attention on me. Up to that point I had just planned to sit back and be a good witness, just as many of you here indicated. Ain't worth being a hero.


What was the outcome if your able to share? Or can you provide link to that thread?


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Old 06-23-2018, 10:37 AM
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What was the outcome if your able to share? Or can you provide link to that thread?


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http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1241023

The guy got 50 days in jail. I didn't have to testify. Interestingly enough, this is the same guy:

http://www.bakersfield.com/archives/...4e38123e4.htmlv3

I guess he didn't learn his lesson. My encounter was exactly 4 blocks north of where he was shot the last time 6 years prior.
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