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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #201  
Old 12-09-2017, 5:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by @miller View Post
No serial numbers yet - the form 1008 is to request the FMBUS serial number from DOJ so you can register the 80% home build.

FMBUS = firearms made by unlicensed subjects. "subjects" - King Louis the 14th had subjects - the DOJ works for us...we are not their subjects...just sayin

Yes you are a "subject"

You are also the enemy of California.
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  #202  
Old 12-09-2017, 8:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Crazed_SS View Post
I understand all that. I also understand that it's 2017.
You need an internet connection to register. You need a credit card to pay. It's not so crazy to own a device capable of taking digital pictures.


They arent even expensive. These 40 dollar cameras would be more than sufficient for this exercise.

https://www.amazon.com/GordVE-GVE001...digital+camera

https://www.amazon.com/Bonna-mega-pi...digital+camera


It's a good idea to have a digital camera "just in case" these days. Might get in a car accident, witness some police misconduct, whatever.. It's a item like a pocket knife, flashlight, etc that can come in handy just when you need it.
I have some customers that still have flip phones and don't use the internet. I don't know how they are going to comply.
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  #203  
Old 12-09-2017, 8:27 AM
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Default I Agree

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Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
I have some customers that still have flip phones and don't use the internet. I don't know how they are going to comply.
I consider myself to quite literate in computer science, a decent digital photographer, and adept at navigating regulations from bureaucratic alphabet agencies (part of my job) - and I have struggled with the registration flaming hoops. Folks that are not accustomed to this sort of thing will be in a bad way, I am afraid.

I know it has been stated repeatedly, but they (DOJ) have made it purposefully difficult by having forms with no instructions, cryptic rejection notices that give no idea of the basis for the rejection and arbitrary regulatory overreach that is called for nowhere in the law they are tasked to enforce. The CA DOJ has had a field day with this golden opportunity - shame on them.
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  #204  
Old 12-09-2017, 8:43 AM
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Default LIST OF DOJ AW REGISTRATION REJECTIONS

Quote:
Originally Posted by @miller View Post
I consider myself to quite literate in computer science, a decent digital photographer, and adept at navigating regulations from bureaucratic alphabet agencies (part of my job) - and I have struggled with the registration flaming hoops. Folks that are not accustomed to this sort of thing will be in a bad way, I am afraid.



I know it has been stated repeatedly, but they (DOJ) have made it purposefully difficult by having forms with no instructions, cryptic rejection notices that give no idea of the basis for the rejection and arbitrary regulatory overreach that is called for nowhere in the law they are tasked to enforce. The CA DOJ has had a field day with this golden opportunity - shame on them.


It is true the registration form is full of come and arrest me pitfalls also. ( I did like the choice of pink or blue hair.)A fellow Calgunner Cocked&Glocked put together an excellent tutorial on how to fill out the forms which has been up for awhile. I followed it, but still got a dozen DOJ “change this and change that” emails. The silliest one is the purchase dates don’t match their records, but they won’t tell you what the right date is. It time consuming and annoying, but doable.

The Gov spent a lot of to money help apply for “Covered California” Why isn’t their a “Registered California” outreach and help center?


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  #205  
Old 12-09-2017, 9:50 AM
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Default The Dates

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Originally Posted by Blade Gunner View Post
It is true the registration form is full of come and arrest me pitfalls also. ( I did like the choice of pink or blue hair.)A fellow Calgunner Cocked&Glocked put together an excellent tutorial on how to fill out the forms which has been up for awhile. I followed it, but still got a dozen DOJ “change this and change that” emails. The silliest one is the purchase dates don’t match their records, but they won’t tell you what the right date is. It time consuming and annoying, but doable.

The Gov spent a lot of to money help apply for “Covered California” Why isn’t their a “Registered California” outreach and help center?


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I did the notarized AF private citizen request to get DOJ list of what they have on record as me owning so I could make sure my submissions don't conflict with DOJ records (recommended thing to do here). I have two currently rejected for "Please Confirm Date" and the date is what the DOJ records show as the date of transfer. WTF? Now isn't that rich?
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  #206  
Old 12-09-2017, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by @miller View Post
I did the notarized AF private citizen request to get DOJ list of what they have on record as me owning so I could make sure my submissions don't conflict with DOJ records (recommended thing to do here). I have two currently rejected for "Please Confirm Date" and the date is what the DOJ records show as the date of transfer. WTF? Now isn't that rich?


That’s a new one. You could submit a scan of the DOJ list of firearms owned with your response in the pictures section. That might clear it up.


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  #207  
Old 12-09-2017, 10:56 AM
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Default I checked

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Originally Posted by Blade Gunner View Post
That’s a new one. You could submit a scan of the DOJ list of firearms owned with your response in the pictures section. That might clear it up.


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I thought about that - but they only give you 1ea "Optional extra images" and that was used up for the barrel stamp on both of them (another evil scheme? Images = 1 singular?)

I plainly said "Yup, date is correct" and resubmitted both with same date - one of them came back as complete yesterday afternoon. We will see about the other.
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  #208  
Old 12-09-2017, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by @miller View Post
I thought about that - but they only give you 1ea "Optional extra images" and that was used up for the barrel stamp on both of them (another evil scheme? Images = 1 singular?)



I plainly said "Yup, date is correct" and resubmitted both with same date - one of them came back as complete yesterday afternoon. We will see about the other.


Looks like someone at DOJ finally learned how to read.


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  #209  
Old 12-09-2017, 5:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by @miller View Post
I thought about that - but they only give you 1ea "Optional extra images" and that was used up for the barrel stamp on both of them (another evil scheme? Images = 1 singular?)

I plainly said "Yup, date is correct" and resubmitted both with same date - one of them came back as complete yesterday afternoon. We will see about the other.
If you still have problems something you may want to consider is using hunting license or whatever one is left that doesn't have an image uploaded to it and put a new comment under comments that under Hunting License you included a list of.....

I saw another rejection earlier where CA DOJ said upload another image and put it under Hunting License (the image they requested had nothing to do with a Hunting License) since that person had already used his optional image.

They should have included the option for up to three optional images as anal as they've been about pissant stuff.
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  #210  
Old 12-10-2017, 10:23 AM
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This level of BS is good news with respect to a legal challenge. DOJ has lost in the past due to far less ambiguity in their regulations and enforcement of the law. Also, that was pre-Heller.

It's totally unreasonable and unconstitutionally vague to require photos that meet specific, undocumented requirements with certain "lighting" and "flash" and resolution. Plus, the rejections due to differences in opinion of make/model. These idiots are setting themselves up for a complete repudiation of this entire process.

As a bonus, the "criminals" they are making are outstanding plaintiffs, since they are all by definition squeaky clean. We won't need any 12-time felon drug dealers challenging this law in a jury trial.

Last edited by feedme; 12-10-2017 at 10:25 AM..
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  #211  
Old 12-12-2017, 8:53 AM
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got 8 more rejections between yesterday and today for my self built serial numbered guns with doj serial numbers... silly stuff, like wanting me to check second handgrip box for pistol that have no fore grip at all and more measuring tape photos.. they are really trying to catch me in a screw up.
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  #212  
Old 12-12-2017, 9:08 AM
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Originally Posted by caliguy93 View Post
got 8 more rejections between yesterday and today for my self built serial numbered guns with doj serial numbers... silly stuff, like wanting me to check second handgrip box for pistol that have no fore grip at all and more measuring tape photos.. they are really trying to catch me in a screw up.


Just to clarify; are these 80% self built with DOJ FMBUSXXXX serial #s or “self built” guns with commercial lowers?
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  #213  
Old 12-12-2017, 9:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Jedediah Munroe View Post
Just to clarify; are these 80% self built with DOJ FMBUSXXXX serial #s or “self built” guns with commercial lowers?
these are 80% self built with DOJ FMBUSXXXX serial #'s

I made their corrections and have received confirmation of submission emails for 5 of 6 of these self built firearms.
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  #214  
Old 12-12-2017, 2:07 PM
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Asked this in a couple places with zero response. I got a Spikes lower with "auto" marking for the selector (along with "safe" and "semi" of course).

Semi FCG installed, can't rotate the selector to "auto".

Has anyone with similar FCG selector markings attempted to register and had any issues or success?

Thanks
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  #215  
Old 12-12-2017, 2:09 PM
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Originally Posted by tofuti View Post
Asked this in a couple places with zero response. I got a Spikes lower with "auto" marking for the selector (along with "safe" and "semi" of course).

Semi FCG installed, can't rotate the selector to "auto".

Has anyone with similar FCG selector markings attempted to register and had any issues or success?

Thanks


Yes I registered an AR with a Spikes Calico Jack lower with these color filled markings (hard to miss in a picture) and they approved the application without questions.


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  #216  
Old 12-12-2017, 2:40 PM
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Originally Posted by C.W.M.V. View Post
Jesus I’m glad my rifles are featureless.
Yep.. this whole "jump through whatever crazy hoop we tell you to" is criminal.. so now you need to a photographer to exercise a right?
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  #217  
Old 12-12-2017, 6:05 PM
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Yep.. this whole "jump through whatever crazy hoop we tell you to" is criminal.. so now you need to a photographer to exercise a right?


DNA swabs are next.


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  #218  
Old 12-12-2017, 6:26 PM
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Anyone else think they may update the dros system to be similar. Supposedly every dros would require a few photos
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  #219  
Old 12-12-2017, 7:26 PM
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Originally Posted by mshill View Post
This is total bull****. Nowhere in 5474(c) does it mention caliber.
and since when did DOJ need an actual law on the books to make up their own rules?
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  #220  
Old 12-13-2017, 2:55 AM
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Got a rejection of make and model is not clearly visible when I tried to co-register for my wife. The funny part is they accepted my photos (exactly the same ones used) as primary registration but rejected hers. What gives?
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  #221  
Old 12-13-2017, 7:16 AM
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Originally Posted by LoadedM333 View Post
Got a rejection of make and model is not clearly visible when I tried to co-register for my wife. The funny part is they accepted my photos (exactly the same ones used) as primary registration but rejected hers. What gives?


Somebody at DOJ wasn’t wearing their reading glasses when they reviewed your wife’s application.
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  #222  
Old 12-13-2017, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by caliguy93 View Post
2X : *THIS WAS REFERRING TO HOMEBUILT 80% FIREARMS (BOTH VOLREG'D AND NOT- OTHERS ONLY ATF SPEC ENGRAVING) - AFTER THE FORM WAS RELEASED*

Quote:
Thank you for submitting your application. Your firearm requires a DOJ issued serial number. The New Serial Number Application form (BOF 1008) can be found at https://oag.ca.gov/firearms under Forms and Publications. Please refer to California Code of Regulations, title 11, section 5474.2 regarding serial number application requirements: https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a...let-button.pdf. For questions, email DOJSerialNumber@doj.ca.gov.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightstrider View Post
So for the whole 80% ordeal, it doesn't matter if you self engrave to ATF spec before homebuilds require serials first?

ALL unserialized homebuilds require a new DOJ assigned serial number by 2019 or something like that?
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Originally Posted by caliguy93 View Post
correct doesn't matter.. also doesn't matter even if you vol reg'd it
I don't get this. If you already VolReged a firearm, it already has a serial number in the AFS. How can they require you to get a second serial number? Is this even legal? What do they do? Do you end up with 2 firearm entries in the AFS for a single firearm or do they delete the old entry? Do you etch the second serial numbers on the gun? Do you run afoul of ATF regs for having 2 serial numbers etched on a gun? Confused...
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  #223  
Old 12-13-2017, 2:02 PM
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Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
I don't get this. If you already VolReged a firearm, it already has a serial number in the AFS. How can they require you to get a second serial number? Is this even legal? What do they do? Do you end up with 2 firearm entries in the AFS for a single firearm or do they delete the old entry? Do you etch the second serial numbers on the gun? Do you run afoul of ATF regs for having 2 serial numbers etched on a gun? Confused...


The DOJ has been so opposed to 80% lowers, this treatment seems to be intentional.


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  #224  
Old 12-13-2017, 2:38 PM
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Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
I don't get this. If you already VolReged a firearm, it already has a serial number in the AFS. How can they require you to get a second serial number? Is this even legal? What do they do? Do you end up with 2 firearm entries in the AFS for a single firearm or do they delete the old entry? Do you etch the second serial numbers on the gun? Do you run afoul of ATF regs for having 2 serial numbers etched on a gun? Confused...
here is the letter I received with my dog supplied serial numbers...

Quote:
This email acknowledges that the California Department of Justice (the Department), Bureau of Firearms (the Bureau) has approved your New Serial Number Application. A unique serial number for each firearm listed on your application is noted below:

Unfortunately, pursuant to California Code of Regulations, title 11, section 5474.2, we are unable to use a customized serial number that may have been engraved on your firearm. The serial number must be one that is assigned by the Department of Justice. It is not required to remove the customized serial number that you have engraved on your firearm nor is it required to label each engraved serial number.


Upon receipt of this serial number(s), you may contact a Federal Firearms Licensed Manufacturer (type 07) to have your Department issued serial number applied in a manner consistent with the requirements outlined in the California Code of Regulations, title 11, section 5474.2.

A Federal Firearms Licensee is under no obligation to perform this work. A person that has manufactured their own firearm may also use non licensed parties to apply the serial number and other required markings, however, the owner of the weapon must not leave the firearm unattended with an unlicensed party because of firearm transfer and/or lending laws.

For assault weapons registration pursuant to Penal Code section 30900(b), proof of the serial number being applied to the firearm shall be provided to the Department in the form of digital photographs of the newly serialized firearms. Photos are to be submitted online using the Department’s California Firearms Application Reporting System (“CFARS”) at the time of registration, pursuant to California Penal Code section 30900(b)(1) and California Code of Regulations, title 11, section 5474(c).

Please note that receiving and applying a serial number(s) does NOT register your firearms as an assault weapon and you will still need to complete that process through the Department’s California Firearms Application Reporting System (CFARS). In accordance with Penal Code section 30900(b)(1), if you plan to register an assault weapon that does not have a fixed magazine (bullet button), you must do so by Saturday, June 30th 2018.

When registering your self-built firearm, enter the DOJ assigned serial number in the “serial number” field. If you have a self-created and/or previously assigned serial number, enter it in the “other number field.” For “Make,” select “U S” from the dropdown menu; then, in the comments section, enter the “Make” approved in this application (i.e. your FIRST & LAST NAME).

If you have any questions, contact the Bureau of Firearms at dojserialnumber@doj.ca.gov.
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  #225  
Old 12-13-2017, 3:04 PM
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Its not uncommon to have two serial numbers on a gun. Most of the CZ 82s that were imported have a second serial added by the importer (I think because the original serial number is on the barrel mount which while welded to the frame technically isn't part of the receiver).
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  #226  
Old 12-13-2017, 3:54 PM
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I know this isn't a "register vs. Featureless" thread but this is thread is affirming my decision to go 100% featureless.
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  #227  
Old 12-13-2017, 9:26 PM
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The one group of the DOJ is taking so long to reply to my open issue that another group felt the need to remind me by email that my application is incomplete and that it will expire on Dec. 25 if I don't complete it. Interesting situation as I believe my appication is fully complete and should be approved. Not too surprising the open issues has to do with a DOJ response that my LMT 308 MWS does not qualify for multi caliber because the receiver is not marked specifically "multi". I guess they get another call tomorrow.

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  #228  
Old 12-14-2017, 7:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Blade Gunner View Post
DNA swabs are next.


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And many here would happily swab away.. lol
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  #229  
Old 12-14-2017, 7:43 AM
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Keep documenting all this insanity. Maybe it will help with a case against this idiotic and untenable legislation.
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  #230  
Old 12-14-2017, 7:56 AM
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Originally Posted by caliguy93 View Post
here is the letter I received with my dog supplied serial numbers...
Yeah. OK. But my serial number isn't just a "customized serial number" (their language), but also the serial number in the AFS system. How are they going to reconcile that with the new number? Will they delete the old entry? Will it show that I own 2 firearms for this 1 firearm that has 2 serial numbers?
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  #231  
Old 12-14-2017, 8:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Blade Gunner View Post
Yes I registered an AR with a Spikes Calico Jack lower with these color filled markings (hard to miss in a picture) and they approved the application without questions.


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THANK YOU! Looks like I can take "figure out a way to fill in '<<<' marking on my lower with JBWeld" off my XMas vacation to-do list.

Although I might try to do it just for the sake of tinkering.
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  #232  
Old 12-14-2017, 8:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
Yeah. OK. But my serial number isn't just a "customized serial number" (their language), but also the serial number in the AFS system. How are they going to reconcile that with the new number? Will they delete the old entry? Will it show that I own 2 firearms for this 1 firearm that has 2 serial numbers?
So were 2 of 6 of mine..

Going backwards, here is the email I submitted to them to garnish their response I posted earlier...

Quote:
Hello,



The CRIS AW registration form has instructed me to contact you via email to obtain a serial number for my "Self Built" firearms. I have mailed out the BOF-1008 form earlier today and am just making sure I am covering my basis. Please let me know if there is anything else I can do. Thanks



Attached are copies of the submitted BOF form 1008 and their corresponding photos.



2 OF THE 6 Firearms have been submitted using BOF-4542A "Firearm ownership Record" application and has been subsequently approved in 2016.



The remaining 4 of 6 firearms have been engraved consistent with ATF specifications.



If possible, I'd like to request the engraved unique markings (aka serial numbers) be used as the DOJ supplied serial number for these firearms to avoid multiple unique identifying marks and further engraving. Thank You.

And here’s their response as posted earlier just to have them in one place..

Quote:
This email acknowledges that the California Department of Justice (the Department), Bureau of Firearms (the Bureau) has approved your New Serial Number Application. A unique serial number for each firearm listed on your application is noted below:

Unfortunately, pursuant to California Code of Regulations, title 11, section 5474.2, we are unable to use a customized serial number that may have been engraved on your firearm. The serial number must be one that is assigned by the Department of Justice. It is not required to remove the customized serial number that you have engraved on your firearm nor is it required to label each engraved serial number.


Upon receipt of this serial number(s), you may contact a Federal Firearms Licensed Manufacturer (type 07) to have your Department issued serial number applied in a manner consistent with the requirements outlined in the California Code of Regulations, title 11, section 5474.2.

A Federal Firearms Licensee is under no obligation to perform this work. A person that has manufactured their own firearm may also use non licensed parties to apply the serial number and other required markings, however, the owner of the weapon must not leave the firearm unattended with an unlicensed party because of firearm transfer and/or lending laws.

For assault weapons registration pursuant to Penal Code section 30900(b), proof of the serial number being applied to the firearm shall be provided to the Department in the form of digital photographs of the newly serialized firearms. Photos are to be submitted online using the Department’s California Firearms Application Reporting System (“CFARS”) at the time of registration, pursuant to California Penal Code section 30900(b)(1) and California Code of Regulations, title 11, section 5474(c).

Please note that receiving and applying a serial number(s) does NOT register your firearms as an assault weapon and you will still need to complete that process through the Department’s California Firearms Application Reporting System (CFARS). In accordance with Penal Code section 30900(b)(1), if you plan to register an assault weapon that does not have a fixed magazine (bullet button), you must do so by Saturday, June 30th 2018.

When registering your self-built firearm, enter the DOJ assigned serial number in the “serial number” field. If you have a self-created and/or previously assigned serial number, enter it in the “other number field.” For “Make,” select “U S” from the dropdown menu; then, in the comments section, enter the “Make” approved in this application (i.e. your FIRST & LAST NAME).

If you have any questions, contact the Bureau of Firearms at dojserialnumber@doj.ca.gov.
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Old 12-14-2017, 8:43 AM
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THANK YOU! Looks like I can take "figure out a way to fill in '<<<' marking on my lower with JBWeld" off my XMas vacation to-do list.

Although I might try to do it just for the sake of tinkering.

When I said color filled it’s in white (safety) and red (semi auto and full auto). It makes the markings more obviously not less obvious.




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Old 12-14-2017, 8:47 AM
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When I said color filled it’s in white (safety) and red (semi auto and full auto). It makes the markings more obviously not less obvious.




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Interesting, my brother had a similar lower where the manufacture name is located where yours is and they made him remove his phase 5 bolt catch stating that a piece of equipment is blocking necessary information.
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Old 12-14-2017, 9:05 AM
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Default LIST OF DOJ AW REGISTRATION REJECTIONS

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Originally Posted by caliguy93 View Post
Interesting, my brother had a similar lower where the manufacture name is located where yours is and they made him remove his phase 5 bolt catch stating that a piece of equipment is blocking necessary information.


I was expecting to get some static from DOJ on the Phase 5 EBR, but they accepted it. It does block the manufactures name, but that’s on the application and on your DROS info if it’s 2014 or later. Maybe that why they let it slide. Of course DOJ does go out of its way to hire the handicapped. Maybe Mr. Magoo reviewed my pics.


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Last edited by Blade Gunner; 12-14-2017 at 9:09 AM..
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  #236  
Old 12-14-2017, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Blade Gunner View Post
When I said color filled it’s in white (safety) and red (semi auto and full auto). It makes the markings more obviously not less obvious.




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Right what I was talking about was actually "physically" filling in the auto marking with JBWeld and painting over. Seems like no need to do that. I HAVE filled it in with flat black carb paint (as well as the garish red spikes logo) at least for the purpose of the pics so the red is not jumping out.
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  #237  
Old 12-14-2017, 12:18 PM
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Anyone else experience the DOJ site not loading the "additional characteristics" check box?
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  #238  
Old 12-14-2017, 12:21 PM
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The one group of the DOJ is taking so long to reply to my open issue that another group felt the need to remind me by email that my application is incomplete and that it will expire on Dec. 25 if I don't complete it. Interesting situation as I believe my appication is fully complete and should be approved. Not too surprising the open issues has to do with a DOJ response that my LMT 308 MWS does not qualify for multi caliber because the receiver is not marked specifically "multi". I guess they get another call tomorrow.

Rasyad


I had the same problem with a Tavor. Since there is no restrictions on caliber changed even after you register as a AW, I took the path of least resistance and just change my caliber to .223 per markings on the receiver, even though the barrel is marked 5.56. There really is no sense in arguing with them. Just respond in your resubmission “ At your direction, I have changed the caliber from multi to 308.”


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Old 12-14-2017, 12:55 PM
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Yeah. OK. But my serial number isn't just a "customized serial number" (their language), but also the serial number in the AFS system. How are they going to reconcile that with the new number? Will they delete the old entry? Will it show that I own 2 firearms for this 1 firearm that has 2 serial numbers?
It will further increase the uselessness of that database as it will now be filled with junk numbers that have no associated gun.
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Old 12-14-2017, 4:44 PM
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Originally Posted by caliguy93 View Post
So were 2 of 6 of mine..

Going backwards, here is the email I submitted to them to garnish their response I posted earlier...


And here’s their response as posted earlier just to have them in one place..
Yeah I see what they are saying to you, but they don't answer my question about what happens to the old entry in the AFS for my current serial number. And further, the AW law does not require the "ghost gun" law DOJ serial number. That's just the way they are choosing to see things. And my firearm is currently exempt from the "ghost gun" law:

29181. Section 29180 does not apply to or affect any of the following:

(c) A firearm which was entered into the centralized registry set forth in Section 11106 prior to July 1, 2018, as being owned by a specific individual or entity if that firearm has assigned to it a distinguishing number or mark of identification to that firearm by virtue of the department accepting entry of that firearm into the centralized registry.

So they are just making this **** up. When they reject mine, I will ask them my questions directly...
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