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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 04-08-2010, 10:02 PM
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Default ACR....why?

So don't get me wrong, I can understand the want for something "new" and different. I understand buying a rifle "just because".

Practically speaking though, whats the big deal about the ACR for us CA folk? It seems like every feature that makes it unique is a no go here. Examples: folding stock to make it compact (negated by the longer barrel needed to reach 30"), Ambi mag release (negated by the use of a bullet button) or if you go featureless you basically have an AR...

Yes you have the "quick barrel change" feature and the option to change calibers (at a later date) so what makes it so different than the AR? Is it just because it was Magpul's brainchild? I don't get it....granted I have no experience with the ACR but it seems like it would be much better suited in a free state than in our state....discuss.

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Old 04-08-2010, 10:05 PM
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I don't understand what your trying to get at?

It's something different and "new-ish" in design. Why would anyone need an AR? An AK? FAL? HK's? Any handgun beside a 1911?

It's a big deal for anyone that's a gun nut because it's something I DON'T HAVE!
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Old 04-08-2010, 10:13 PM
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Hahahahaha. I understand the "Do want" mentality.

Practically, however what is the draw from whats already out there?

I see so many people scrambling now that its released, I just don't understand why.
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Old 04-08-2010, 10:14 PM
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Honestly, I just think it's a handsome rifle. Even if it's made primarily out of plastic.
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Old 04-08-2010, 11:28 PM
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Hands down it just isn't a $2500 rifle IMHO. Sure I'd love to add one to the collection, but not at the current prices. I'd rather spend that kind of money on top tier optics. I'll consider one when they come down to around $1500, if they ever do. The new kid on the block always gets lots of attention.
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Old 04-08-2010, 11:34 PM
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It's fairly innovative in the design... even though you can find a lot of the features on the xcr. I'm just sad they couldn't cut down the weight on that thing and plus the price is a real hit. I don't really care for barrel changeable guns because you have to rezero irons and optics every time you do that.
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Old 04-09-2010, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by skkeeter View Post
Hands down it just isn't a $2500 rifle IMHO. Sure I'd love to add one to the collection, but not at the current prices. I'd rather spend that kind of money on top tier optics. I'll consider one when they come down to around $1500, if they ever do. The new kid on the block always gets lots of attention.
+1

Id rather have a SCAR anyways. Or an ACR with SCAR weight and the SCAR barrel. FN makes retardedly accurate chrome lined barrels. I say someone should steal their secret.

I also think its incredibly stupid that the ACR has a permanent pistol grip. Thats just BOGUS.
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Old 04-09-2010, 12:15 AM
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I really want the ACR but I'm going to hold off on it when I can SBR it when I move to Arizona. I got my KAC SR15 lower already stored away there...
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Old 04-09-2010, 6:15 AM
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I wouldn't pay more than $1,500 for that...
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Old 04-09-2010, 6:26 AM
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When something new comes out they are hyped and we are told of its new "advanced" features and components. People like to get "new" things in all categories and the ACR is no difference. In the end the M4 DI will always be around and the "new" rifle will be replaced with the even "newer" rifle.
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Old 04-09-2010, 6:35 AM
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I certainly think its a pretty gun, and I think most buyers are purchasing it just for the cool factor. Quite frankly, for the civilian, it's really no better than an AR but at near double the price of a quality make. Meh. Certainly wouldn't pay that much for it.
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Old 04-09-2010, 6:37 AM
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get a Robinson XCR and a sweet optic and you will have money left over for ammo, for the price of the over hyped ACR.....
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Old 04-09-2010, 9:02 AM
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Lots of people keep knocking the price of the ACR, but to build an equivalently-configured AR easily puts one in the same price range (gas piston upper, similar-quality components such as Bushmaster AR barrel, same controls, etc.)

Knowing that the prices are roughly the same, the ACR begins to be more attractive than an equivalently-configured AR because of its design: better ergonomics, lighter materials, swappable barrel, etc. Sure, we have to neuter it to make it Calif. legal, but there are things that are going to be unique about it (such as the placement of the charging handle and the ability to switch calibers and barrel lengths) that won't be affected by the neutering.

Personally, I'm going to get one to appreciate firsthand the engineering that went into it, but I like to do that sort of thing. And then later, if and when I move out of the state, I'll remove the neutering devices, snap in a short barrel, and get my SBR tax stamp.

While in the state, I might even sell off all my ARs, just because I don't particularly like having entire rifles built around a single design concept (oh, this is my long-range AR, and this is my 6.5 G-l AR, and this is my HD AR--each one with upgrades on it = all that money adds up!). Look, I've had to buy three nearly-identical Daniel Defense quad rails, three Larue mounts, three optics, three Surefire lights--imagine having ONE rifle with ONE optic, ONE mount, ONE rail, ONE light that only takes about three five-round groups to zero after barrel changes. That's a helluva savings right there.

Last edited by dchang0; 04-09-2010 at 9:13 AM..
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Old 04-09-2010, 9:32 AM
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I like the features and the ergonomics of the ACR, although I don't really have any use for the quick change barrel. Heck, I even think its a good looking gun. I still don't like how its priced, but I can say that for a whole lot of other things as well. I don't WANT to pay MSRP for it so I'll sit here waiting to see what happens in the next few months. I'll be on the lookout for a good deal on a basic one for sure. Barring some launch issues, I expect it to be a solid platform. It certainly will not be as prolific as the AR platform but I expect it to have a pretty large following. It's weight isnt really an issue for me as I won't be "lugging it around all day" and the only other added weight on mine will be an aimpoint micro.
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Old 04-09-2010, 11:06 AM
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I agree with the OP, there really is no advantages to the ACR for us in CA, especially for the price (and weight!). The idea of quickly switching out barrels and calibers is definately cool, but only a novelty/selling point for me. I'd like to see how many people actually pick up the kits and use them. I'd rather just buy a second upper or entire gun.

It would be fun to have one SBRed though. A 11.5 or so barrel and folding stock would be pretty cool. I hope the price drops eventually, I plan to be out of the state in 2 years and if the price has been reduced I'll pick one up.
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Old 04-09-2010, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by dchang0 View Post
Lots of people keep knocking the price of the ACR, but to build an equivalently-configured AR easily puts one in the same price range (gas piston upper, similar-quality components such as Bushmaster AR barrel, same controls, etc.)
Not really. Maybe when things calm down a bit, but as previously mentioned there are AR options as well as rifles such as the Sig 556 and XCR which are both excellent weapon systems for less money.

If someone likes it that's fine, it's their money.
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Old 04-09-2010, 11:16 AM
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It would be fun to have one SBRed though. A 11.5 or so barrel and folding stock would be pretty cool. I hope the price drops eventually, I plan to be out of the state in 2 years and if the price has been reduced I'll pick one up.
I saw an SBR'd XCR last time I was in Arizona. That thing was SWEET.
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Old 04-09-2010, 11:27 AM
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Why buy a new flat screen when your old one still works? Why buy a new car when your old one still works? Why buy new shorts when your old ones still work? Why buy a new cell phone when your old one still works?

Having the latest and greatest is always in demand. The features and function are only part of the equation. Whether it's looks or fashion or function, we always look forward to progression. It's one of the simple pleasures of our capitalist system. He who dies with the best toys wins!

But until the price drops to $1,500 on the SCAR or ACR, I'm out. Now if they'd just make the XCR in 6.5 Grendel I'd buy one.

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Old 04-09-2010, 11:32 AM
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OVER HYPED!!
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Old 04-09-2010, 11:45 AM
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Why buy a new flat screen when you're old one still works? Why buy a new car when your old one still works? Why buy new shorts when your old ones still work? Why buy a new cell phone when your old one still works?

Having the latest and greatest is always in demand. The features and function are only part of the equation. Whether it's looks or fashion or function, we always look forward to progression. It's one of the simple pleasures of our capitalist system. He who dies with the best toys wins!

But until the price drops to $1,500 on the SCAR or ACR, I'm out. Now if they'd just make the XCR in 6.5 Grendel I'd buy one.
I don't see it dropping to $1500 anytime soon. I'd say $1800 is a more realistic expectation once production really ramps up. No way in hell I'm willing to pay over 2k for it. Not with how comes from the factory at the moment. *MAYBE* 2k if it came with a nice hammer forged chrome lined barrel similar to what were accustomed to seeing on top shelf (that don't use SS barrels) ARs nowadays.
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Old 04-09-2010, 11:58 AM
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I saw an SBR'd XCR last time I was in Arizona. That thing was SWEET.
+1... I already have plans of turning an XCR in 6.8 into a KAC PDW clone when I move to AZ.
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Old 04-09-2010, 12:13 PM
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A brand new ACR for $1295 ?!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=164412399

I wonder if that's a typo!


Edit: Someone just bought it! Damnit maybe I should have jumped on it.

Last edited by Sarkoon; 04-09-2010 at 12:16 PM.. Reason: it sold fast
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Old 04-09-2010, 12:26 PM
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A brand new ACR for $1295 ?!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=164412399

I wonder if that's a typo!


Edit: Someone just bought it! Damnit maybe I should have jumped on it.
That was a great deal
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Old 04-09-2010, 1:04 PM
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At that price I would have jumped on it!
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Old 04-09-2010, 1:14 PM
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I have a feeling the seller meant for the buy it now price to be $2195 LoL
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Old 04-09-2010, 1:45 PM
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Well I canít and wonít speak for others here, but I bought an ACR for the following (7) reasons:

1. (Itís not that much $$) I had the $$$ (after I sold my .50) and I wanted it so I got it (yes it is that simple), different people are at different places in their lives, some look at $3000.00 as no big deal, some look at it as a OMG! That a ton a $$$.. ME Iím set in my career and make dam good coin so Iím going to spend it as I feel fit.. All of bills are paid, the kids are (good to go), I don't gamble, I don't do dugs, I don't really have any other hobbies that I really enjoy or spend $$ on (well other than airbrushing and reloading) so why not treat myself to a new toy. I deserve it!.. Hell my boss has several $3000 + suites and a $10,000 + watch he wears all the time so to each it own..


2. (Peace of mind) I don't (didnít) have an AR that I can truly trust my / my kids life to and I wanted to get something that I know will work. Sure I have other ARís but I don't really trust them,(hard to explain this one, itís just a feeling that I have) if and or when the SHTF Iíll be more than confident in my rifle ability to defend whatever I haft to..

Sure I looked at the LWRC but by the time I get done piecing one together itís not that much (if any) of a savings (1,800 for an upper + tax = $2000, now add another 500 for a good lower and parts plus tax, and now add the cost for a rear stock ($250) and Iím up to the cost of the basic rifle .. So it was either I custom build a bad *** one that would be limited to 223, or I buy one that was designed from the ground up as a short store piston to work in mutable calibers.. (win win or me).


3. (Cool / wow factor) I sold my .50 and wanted something to replace the coolness / WOW factor.. hahahaha.. I like shooting cool / different guns. Plus Iíll probably be the first one here on CG to give an in depth review of it. That is if someone doesnít beet me to it.. hhahahhaaa..

4. (Next long gun legislation) Who can say that Iíll still be allowed to get this rifle next year?? I would rather buy it now and not worry about it latter.

5. Itís upgradable.. Iím looking forward to getting all of the goodies I can for it, I love the fact that I can take one rifle to the range but shoot multiple calibers out of it.

6. When I take it out of state, Iíll simple convert it back to its original format, every mod that is required to make it Cali legal is reversible

7. Investment. Hey this puppy might be worth something in a few years (who knows) but itís worth a shot and I feel itís better odds than buying stokes or bonds.
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Old 04-09-2010, 4:23 PM
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Well I canít and wonít speak for others here, but I bought an ACR for the following (7) reasons:

1. (Itís not that much $$) I had the $$$ (after I sold my .50) and I wanted it so I got it (yes it is that simple), different people are at different places in their lives, some look at $3000.00 as no big deal, some look at it as a OMG! That a ton a $$$.. ME Iím set in my career and make dam good coin so Iím going to spend it as I feel fit.. All of bills are paid, the kids are (good to go), I don't gamble, I don't do dugs, I don't really have any other hobbies that I really enjoy or spend $$ on (well other than airbrushing and reloading) so why not treat myself to a new toy. I deserve it!.. Hell my boss has several $3000 + suites and a $10,000 + watch he wears all the time so to each it own..


2. (Peace of mind) I don't (didnít) have an AR that I can truly trust my / my kids life to and I wanted to get something that I know will work. Sure I have other ARís but I don't really trust them,(hard to explain this one, itís just a feeling that I have) if and or when the SHTF Iíll be more than confident in my rifle ability to defend whatever I haft to..

Sure I looked at the LWRC but by the time I get done piecing one together itís not that much (if any) of a savings (1,800 for an upper + tax = $2000, now add another 500 for a good lower and parts plus tax, and now add the cost for a rear stock ($250) and Iím up to the cost of the basic rifle .. So it was either I custom build a bad *** one that would be limited to 223, or I buy one that was designed from the ground up as a short store piston to work in mutable calibers.. (win win or me).


3. (Cool / wow factor) I sold my .50 and wanted something to replace the coolness / WOW factor.. hahahaha.. I like shooting cool / different guns. Plus Iíll probably be the first one here on CG to give an in depth review of it. That is if someone doesnít beet me to it.. hhahahhaaa..

4. (Next long gun legislation) Who can say that Iíll still be allowed to get this rifle next year?? I would rather buy it now and not worry about it latter.

5. Itís upgradable.. Iím looking forward to getting all of the goodies I can for it, I love the fact that I can take one rifle to the range but shoot multiple calibers out of it.

6. When I take it out of state, Iíll simple convert it back to its original format, every mod that is required to make it Cali legal is reversible

7. Investment. Hey this puppy might be worth something in a few years (who knows) but itís worth a shot and I feel itís better odds than buying stokes or bonds.
Awesome post. Gata do what you gata do, and what you want to do, especially when its YOUR money. Looking forward to the range report. What optics do you plan on running through it?
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Old 04-09-2010, 4:40 PM
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Sure I looked at the LWRC but by the time I get done piecing one together itís not that much (if any) of a savings (1,800 for an upper + tax = $2000, now add another 500 for a good lower and parts plus tax, and now add the cost for a rear stock ($250) and Iím up to the cost of the basic rifle ..
EXACTLY. That's what I meant about people thinking it's too expensive. If you build an equivalent AR (and I mean TRULY equivalent, with the same quality of components and same features as close as one can get--your $600 KISS build isn't equivalent in this context), it will cost roughly the same as the ACR.
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Old 04-09-2010, 4:44 PM
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Linkpimp,

all good points except the multiple caliber points. You obviosly haven't been reading reviews by people who already have it. The barrel change out system is BS. There is no way to keep zero between barrels.

AR's still have the lead on that. Different uppers with optics mounted FTW.

Also there is nothig wrong with ARs dependability. They've been working since Vietnam.
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Old 04-09-2010, 4:57 PM
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Thats a steal on that ACR on GB. Love to have one at that price.

But the going price is about $2500 for a basic and $2800 for the enhanced. Lower than the MSRP but still expensive. However, like someone else said, if you look at the features, and try building an AR like it, you'd be in about the same price range.

The not so cool part is that the ACR has to be "neutered' for CA.

I think if you want it featureless, get the basic, slap a MMG/HH grip, or SolTac wrap on it, and replace the flash hider with a muzzle brake. You get detachable mags and ambi everything.

Or get the enhanced, lock the mag with a BB, remove the ambi mag release, and fix the folding stock mechanism. You get to have a pistol grip, collapsible stock, and AAC flash hider.

If it drops down in price (come on $1500), I think I see myself getting one. Wouldn't mind a 6.5 Grendel barrel for it either. The weight everybody complains about should help with the recoil and whatnot
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Old 04-09-2010, 5:34 PM
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Linkpimp,

all good points except the multiple caliber points. You obviosly haven't been reading reviews by people who already have it. The barrel change out system is BS. There is no way to keep zero between barrels.
Linkpimp made no mention of not having to re-zero between barrel changes. Re-zeroing is a given with any barrel change, even on an AR system, so yes, ARs do have the upper hand on just switching out the uppers with premounted, prezeroed optics.

But that's an awful lot of money sunk into multiple optics. If you're an ACOG shooter like me, to shoot 3 different calibers (or 3 different barrels/uppers), we're talking 3 x $1000 = $3000 in glass (or mounting and remounting the same scope on different uppers, which will destroy the screws/threads/QD latches over time).

With the ACR, I can keep one ACOG and rezero between barrel changes, saving me roughly the price of the ACR!
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Old 04-09-2010, 5:52 PM
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I agree with the OP, there really is no advantages to the ACR for us in CA, especially for the price (and weight!). The idea of quickly switching out barrels and calibers is definately cool, but only a novelty/selling point for me. I'd like to see how many people actually pick up the kits and use them. I'd rather just buy a second upper or entire gun.

It would be fun to have one SBRed though. A 11.5 or so barrel and folding stock would be pretty cool. I hope the price drops eventually, I plan to be out of the state in 2 years and if the price has been reduced I'll pick one up.
+1

Way to heavy for a plastic Gun, that was a big turn off, would be excellent platform if was 6 lbs w/o ammo....

Makes my LMT MRP's lightweight compared to the ACR...

As price is concern and if it will do Californians any good???.... well.... on the price...No comment . For the Californians that do get it...well at least it comes with a fixed stock, all you got to do is put a comp and solar tactical your grip and your golden....just like BuSHMAster.





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Old 04-09-2010, 7:35 PM
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I got mine because it's simple, it's just caveman. It's caveman simple.
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Old 04-09-2010, 11:20 PM
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*doesn't have to re-zero between barrel changes*

Honestly the only things I really like about it are the ambi-release and the charging handle...mostly the charging handle (it looks absolutely spot on), but neither of those features are in and of themselves are worth that much extra cabbage IMO.

Maybe I just wish I had that much money to drop on one of those.
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  #35  
Old 04-10-2010, 12:47 AM
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What's always interesting to me is the history behind rifle designs. Just look at how things have developed over the last 30 years since the Military has been looking for a replacement for the Stoner AR designs.

There's no coincidence that Remington / Bushmaster adopted the "ACR" as the name of the rifle. The Advanced Combat Rifle program started in the early 80's by the military was looking for the "next step" in rifle design. The first weapons developed by an array of manufacturers (including Colt, HK, FN, etc) all focused on case-less flechette ammo. The idea was to get a smaller, lighter, and more accurate assault weapon with higher penetration.

Verdict by Military: needs more development. Problems with the ammo and rifles like the HK G11's reliability concluded the whole ACR experiment was just too incremental a change to be worth considering replacing the AR.

Then came really Sci-Fi stuff in the 90's. The ACR program morphed into the OICW (Objective Individual Combat Weapon) program. This time developers focused on these 20mm and 40mm programable grenades coupled with a 5.56 fairly basic assault rifle.

Again the verdict was similar: inconclusive in any recommendation to adopt these weapons over the AR. Even though the programable grenades could shoot through walls and blow up all kinds of funky stuff the military just could not justify it for cost, weight, functionality, reliability, etc.

In the last decade it seems all manufacturers have taken a few steps back from the high tech approach of Flechettes and electronic rifles and basically ALL PRODUCED THE SAME NEW RIFLE: a rounded out slightly better version of an AR. The AR does have some questionable design features and these next gen rifles address the problems.

My personal verdict: BORING!!!! What is the difference between a SCAR, ACR, XCR, etc? They all seem to be the same rifle going after the same market: make a slightly better AR. Round off the edges. Add a few gimick features.

That makes me ask the real question: if in the 80's and 90's we where more advanced technologically in our thinking than we are in the 2000's when it comes to rifle design, what the hell are we doing? Where are the Eugene Stoner's and Kalashnikov's of our generation? I just can't stand it when a rifle like the ACR comes out and it's hailed as the "next quantum leap" in rifle design when it's just a slightly better version of an AR. So slight it makes the price tag look so big compared to any real innovation gained.
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  #36  
Old 04-10-2010, 1:13 AM
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I think there are only so many ways you can shoot bullets out of a shoulder fired weapon so until they figure out a way to make compact energy weapons and produce it cheaply, I don't think anything will change except for ergonomics and a few features here and there. Same thing can be said about say, cars.
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Old 04-10-2010, 1:45 PM
The DRis The DRis is offline
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Dchang,

that may be the case. But speaking in SHTF terms, every time you change the caliber you will have to re-zero, using up precious ammo supplies and possibly giving away your position, or attracting unwanted attention.
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Old 04-10-2010, 2:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The DRis View Post
Dchang,

that may be the case. But speaking in SHTF terms, every time you change the caliber you will have to re-zero, using up precious ammo supplies and possibly giving away your position, or attracting unwanted attention.
True dat, but I'd probably leave my ACR (if I get one) in 6.5 Grendel most of the time, only switching calibers when at the range for some fun time. That way, I'd likely have the best compromise round (best compromise between long and short range lethality) already installed and zeroed if and when the S hits the F. And I could shoot the much-cheaper 5.56 at the range, all while getting to practice on the exact same rifle I'd use all the other times.

Certainly, if in an actual SHTF situation, I would probably not change the barrels out except in the rare instance when I would have the luxury of doing so (such as if I'm holed up with a bunch of neighbors who also have guns and ammo, defending our neighborhood Hurricane Katrina style--drawing unwanted attention could be okay in that situation).

Best of all for SHTF, I wouldn't have to lug around more than one rifle for different purposes. Imagine you or I had to bug out and leave our homes behind. Carrying one ACR with one optic plus three barrels will certainly be easier than carrying one AR lower plus three uppers + three optics (assuming we are carrying equal amounts of magazines and ammo for the different calibers). Even if we're bugging out in vehicles, the space taken up by three uppers with optics is much more than three skinny barrels, and that space could be used for extra ammo (for zeroing or zombie-killing).

And of course, that money saved could buy lots of extra ammo for zeroing.

I think the most valuable part of sticking with one ACR is training muscle memory. Having one rifle with all the same stuff in all the same places is a huge boon for those of us who practice a lot. My AR uppers are all slightly different from one another (because they were built at different times and with different purposes and budgets), so I sometimes get confused switching between them because the handling is different. For example, I recently trained (hard-core for 14 months straight) on a carbine-length handguard. Afterward, I upgraded my main rifle's upper to a rifle-length handguard to get a little more room under the barrel for shooting from prone with a sling. But under stress, I'll unconsciously fall back to a carbine-type grip/stance, rather than taking advantage of the extra length on my rails. Old habits really die hard...

It's like that saying, "Beware the man with only one gun, because he will know how to use it." If I get an ACR, I can expect to get really, really damned good at handling it--much better than I would with three slightly-different ARs.

Last edited by dchang0; 04-10-2010 at 2:56 PM..
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  #39  
Old 04-10-2010, 4:06 PM
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i appreciate the model of this rifle......think it is unique and has its advantages just like scar for instance....and a plus too is having variety even though I am a huge and loyal ar colt lover.
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  #40  
Old 04-10-2010, 11:51 PM
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WTF are you doing with three barrels? Ignoring the fact that I have .308s for hunting. Let's say I pick 6.8 or 6.5 for hunting. Now I how two uppers. One in 5.56 for fighting. And one for hunting. Two pins and I'm changed and zeroed. No wasted ammo. Nada. And really, they don't take up that much room so that's a null arguement. I've got a F150 so space isn't an issue. So I don't see a whole lot of good in the ACR. Yeah the controls may be on the same spot. But an upper with a bipod for hunting isn't used like an upper built for combat. So muscle memory isn't needed there. CH is in the back, mag release same spot, trigger feels the same. I don't see any advantages the ACR has over an AR.

Don't get me wrong. Of someone wants one get one. Hell, I want one in a couple years when they fix QC a bit and the advanced comes out. No need to justify a purchase. But some things actually aren't better than an AR platform.

And I say again. Have you read the reviews on it from arfcom? The barrel change out is BS. He used a 4lb sledge and a vice to get the barrel tight enough to compete with AR accuracy. You gonna have those tools on the move if SHTF?
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