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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here. |
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Rob Pincus Counter Ambush Training DVD & Home Study Course
I got an emailed newsletter from the Rob Pincus I.C.E. Training outfit regarding a new program of his for "Counter Ambush" Training:
Counter Ambush: 5-Disc DVD Box Set: $147. Counter Ambush: Certified Training Course: $247. Has anyone tried these?
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
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Not sure what to think of it yet. I appreciate Pincus' skill as a presenter and find myself in agreement with much of his training philosophy. I somewhat flinch (a pun if you think about it) at anything associated with USCCA or Tim Schmidt, though.
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| I don't pretend to be an "authority." I'm just a guy who trains a lot, shoots a lot and has a perspective. Check the ZombieTactics Channel on YouTube for all sorts of gun-related goodness CLICK HERE Last edited by ZombieTactics; 11-26-2012 at 2:41 PM.. |
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I just ordered the full Counter Ambush: Certified Training Course. Hopefully, there are some nuggets of good packaged knowledge therein.
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
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If you're asking me, not yet. I have a very open mind so I'll be taking the Advanced Pistol Handling course in L.A. on August 8-9, 2013 taught by Rob Pincus himself.
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
#6
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2 day courses from: Vickers/Pannone/Hackathorn/McPhee/McNamara $525 Defoor/Harrington/Howe $450 Proctor $475 Seems a bit overpriced compared to other instructors with more real world experience. Ram you're way more open minded than I'll ever be! |
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Hey guys... Thanks for the interest in the new book/DVD/Home Study Course.
It is a new program that I developed in conjunction with USCCA to give people a better understanding of HOW to train and why I think that a "counter ambush" approach is the best way for those interested in Personal Defense to approach the problem (as opposed to training in a way that presumes being "on balance" and "ready"). This is the first time that I am offering any type of distance learning course formally. I think this topic is important enough to justify it. I understand why people aren't as likely to take the time/effort/energy to attend a multi-day lecture series on the topic, but I think it is possible to take the lecture DVDs, the book and the home-study workbook and learn enough about the topic to pass the test we have prepared as a demonstration of successful completion. We'll see once people start taking the actual test, but I am expecting great feedback and results! As for the pricing, you might be comparing Apples & Oranges. My fundamental 2 day course is $500... the APH is an advanced course and we cover quite a lot more material in that time period. The 2 day Combat Focus Shooting is a pre-requisite, and there are still some places we offer it for less from time to time because of existing relationships with the hosts that keep costs down. -Rob Last edited by Rob Pincus; 11-26-2012 at 10:44 PM.. |
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For APH Course Eligibility it says: Quote:
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military Last edited by ramzar; 11-26-2012 at 10:57 PM.. |
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military Last edited by ramzar; 11-26-2012 at 11:12 PM.. |
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Surprised they are so low, honestly. What does Defoor/Vickers/Howe charge for their first level 2 day pistol courses? Also, what are the class sizes? I limit mine to 12 students. I've seen some of the newer guys in the industry run classes with over 20 students at a time... Quote:
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Craig's ECQC course compares with my ECQT Course... but the CAT Home Study course is conceptual. Honestly, it explains the need for either Craig's or my in-person Close Quarters classes.... -RJP Last edited by Rob Pincus; 12-04-2012 at 4:56 PM.. |
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Last edited by GM_77; 12-04-2012 at 6:30 PM.. |
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Limiting classes has become an issue mostly in highly student-populated areas especially like Southern California. There are no absolutes. The same 2-day Kyle Defoor Advanced Handgun class in SoCal with 20+ students had only 12 in Florida within a few weeks of each other both costing $450. Some who proclaim on limiting the number of students are in effect only capable of limited number of students period. The trend is in more top tier instructors limiting their student count to 15 or less. This is a good thing. Hope this will continue in large urban areas.
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
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All three of them are Tier 1 Special Operations veterans which means they have been vetted and received the finest training money can buy, proven world-class shooters, who have in fact been in combat. You were a LEO for a very short time, admin at the Valhalla Training Center, and then started your own company (Hiring a Ranger & SEAL to stand next to you for your original company instructor photos), then turned yourself into a Youtube star w/ videos you do yourself. Last I heard you don't even carry a gun in your classes and demo nothing. Back in the day you did demo's into the berm. Should you're name be mentioned in the same breath as a Vickers, Lamb, Defoor, McPhee, Howe, Pannone, McNamara, Harrington, etc? Quote:
Nice try salesman.....You are slick, I will give you that. IMO: Most of the time when an instructor states such a low student to instructor ratio as a sales pitch it's ONLY because that's all they could get to sign-up.. When they do it goes out the windown. Try again.
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Paul A. Hotaling Alias Training & Security Services, LLC Paul@aliastraining.com 757-985-9586 www.aliastraining.com |
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Still very different courses... still the same relationship between CAT and ECQC. I don't teach a MUC type course. There are some aspects of MUC that address concerns I talk about int he CAT Book/DVD Lectures in regard to the traditional way that "awareness" and "focus" are addressed in training. Craig's version of moving & turning offline when approached, for example.
For those of you not familiar with this work from Craig, he covered a lot of it in a DVD we did together last year as part of the Personal Defense Network series. CAT is about WHY you should train for being 'off balance' and HOW to go about doing that in a conceptual way. There really hasn't been anything like it offered before. It isn't like any physical course. It helps people learn about actual fights, how information gets processed, how learning is best done for the skills we need to develop and then some ideas on how to determine what gear and skills to collect. The home study course includes my new book, the CAT Lecture DVDs and workbook that helps you learn and apply the lessons and the some other material. After you've completed the work, you can take an online test (90% required for certificate of completion). -RJP Last edited by Rob Pincus; 12-04-2012 at 6:35 PM.. |
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Even though the material within the Pincus Counter Ambush Training (CAT) may only explain the need for such training, I'm looking forward to perusing, watching and digesting the conceptual material (apparently it should arrive within the week in partial shipments due to a fulfillment error). I keep a healthy open-minded, analytical albeit skeptical approach to such material as I do to most such "distinct methodology".
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
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We should all remain a student throughout our lives.
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
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The APH class registration page says a 1-day CFS course as a prerequisite but you said 2 days (see above links). So, which is it? When you say: AND Quote:
Are the CFS methods so exclusive as to need an initiation? Please help me understand in the overall tactical/defensive firearms training field...
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
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First back to the original topic, I posted a pretty thorough explanation of the CAT Home Study course and the package contents here: .
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If I say to a room full of people "Remember when you did the Wind Sprint Drill?" and one guy has never actually done a Wind Sprint Drill, then it takes away from the class time and I have re-teach something. If you show up and use an extended ready position instead of a compressed one, you can't do some of the exercises safely. So, students who go through CFS and use/learn a compressed ready position are prepped for the APH course material. If you show up using an extended one and ask (fairly) "Why should I use a compressed ready?" then I have to teach/explain that, which is redundant for people who have been through CFS.... again, it takes time from the course material. No point in showing up for algebra class if you haven't learned arithmetic. |
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This stuff is NOT rocket science and your verbiage dwells on the over-dramatic and treating your audience as simpletons. We KNOW compressed ready and a lot of your CFS stuff are quite familiar to many through the various CFS, ICE Training, PDN, etc. sources. Don't over-emphasize the uniqueness of your program since you start approaching the point of irrelevance. Remember also that some of your CFS "graduates" may have forgotten the uniqueness of your methods and may need a quick refresher at the start of the APH class.
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
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I am unaware of any special "rate card" for instructors based upon their past acts of derring-do or military qualifications. Did I not get the memo or something? Last time I checked, its was pretty much a free-market thing ... whatever the market will bear. If you can get the rate, get it. Or perhaps an alternate business plan calls for a different student-to-instructor ratio and charges accordingly. That's a business decision, not an indicator of anyone's "awesomeness".
The notion of a "Tier One" background being a singular qualifier for fitness to teach strikes me odd, especially if the subject is self-defense in non-military circumstances. Of course, it's alternately suggested that only champion competition shooters can lay claim to that mantle. Check some of the competition forums and see how they make fun of what they call "Tactical Timmies" ... apparently being a genuine war hero means nothing as long you can shoot paper targets like a pro? Seems like a lot of adolescent posturing to me, and neither position seems to hold much logical weight. I can't think of a single area of human endeavor - athletic or otherwise - where the very best performers usually make the very best teachers or coaches. Often the best teachers and coaches turn out to be so-so performers or have little in the way of awesome credentials ... aside from the fact that they can bring out the best in their students. Béla Károlyi was a hammer-thrower and a boxer, and failed miserably at meeting even minimal low-level, standards at gymnastics ... I guess he wasn't "Tier One" enough to coach Nadia Comăneci, Mary Lou Retton, Betty Okino, Teodora Ungureanu, Kim Zmeskal, Kristie Phillips, Dominique Moceanu, and Kerri Strug, huh? My kid's soccer trainer was a pro player of little renown ... pretty good trainer. Their coach is just an adult enthusiast ... and a much better teacher. I guess all those district cup wins are meaningless, not enough "Tier One" instruction. Bobby Jackson used to be a neighbor of mine. Awesome skills, helluva decent guy ... could not coach basketball to save his life, from what I've witnessed personally. Martina Navratilova's tennis coach never won anything of note as a player, from what I am told ... and that's far more common story in most sports than the opposite. What is so special and unique about firearms training that only awesome death dealers need apply? Why is it different than anything and everything else? There are heroes on every police force (my nephew gave his all, thanks) and great shooters on every range. My training checkbook gets opened for educational value, not the chance to "stand in the presence of awesome". I have no doubt that the likes of Vickers and others are excellent instructors, as they've gained reputations as instructors. Is there anything so unique about what they teach that their methods are completely unknown to anyone else ... or impossible to be taught except by those with Tier One experience? Believe or not, they have their detractors as well ... full of venom and spite, for reasons every bit as oblique and unfathomable. I can't say I place much faith in content-less, snarky attempts at character assassination ... regardless of source or target.
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| I don't pretend to be an "authority." I'm just a guy who trains a lot, shoots a lot and has a perspective. Check the ZombieTactics Channel on YouTube for all sorts of gun-related goodness CLICK HERE Last edited by ZombieTactics; 12-17-2012 at 5:24 PM.. |
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The 20 student thing is an obvious attempt. Paul merely returned accurate and effective fire. Quote:
http://www.vikingcombatives.com/Pers...alifornia.html --edit-- oh wow I guess it was a 2011 schedule, didn't see that. Nevermind! Last edited by GM_77; 12-18-2012 at 8:29 AM.. |
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They currently have no CFS Intro or Fundamentals classes scheduled for SoCal in 2013: http://combatfocusshooting.com/calen...n/3/California Also, that Jeff Varner guy is no longer an active CFS instructor: http://combatfocusshooting.com/instructors
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
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But it's an open question as to which of them are SMEs for the types of self-defense situations most likely to be encountered by civilians, lacking team support or combat load-outs. Certainly that's not a pejorative question or observation, or is it? It's kind of drag-racing vs. F1 vs. NASCAR, isn't it? It doesn't make sense to say that someone who is a respected NASCAR figure can't teach NASCAR, because they never won a drag race. Like it or not, Pincus does indeed have the respect of many important and established authorities in the self-defense training field. If you consider the opinions of people like Mike Seeklander, Mas Ayoob, Claude Werner, etc. to be "worthless", then I leave you to your rarefied sensibilities. What it means in any specific case is open to interpretation. I don't consider myself to be a "defender" of Rob Pincus.I absolutely disagree with some of what he teaches. That's a subject for conversation, research and further study. Rational people don't start feuds over such things. In that respect, you have to admire the professional bearing of someone like LAV concerning these kinds of questions. Nobody is the "all seeing, all knowing" guru on these matters ... not even guys with Tier One military experience. I take issue with baseless bashing and unnecessary drama, however. Maybe a little more mutual (even if grudging) respect and "staying in your own damned lane" is called for.
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| I don't pretend to be an "authority." I'm just a guy who trains a lot, shoots a lot and has a perspective. Check the ZombieTactics Channel on YouTube for all sorts of gun-related goodness CLICK HERE Last edited by ZombieTactics; 12-18-2012 at 11:06 AM.. |
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You don’t have to be the sharpest tool in the shed to realize these skills correlate directly to civilian training classes; covert/concealed carry = civilian concealed carry, diplomatic security = personal defense/defense of family, Low Vis Operations = civilian concealed carry, CQB = Home Defense, etc, etc. Not to forget their adherence to very high accuracy standards in classes verses “Fighting” = “Good Enough” accuracy. If you are forced to defend your home with your family in the next room or forced to defend yourself in a crowded mall do you want to have been trained by one of the world’s finest handgun shooters or a guy who shoots into a berm to avoid showing you he has boringly average weapon skills? Hint #1: The topic of this thread isn’t about a standard how to shoot Handgun or Carbine class. It’s about “Counter-Ambush”. A rather specialized topic if you ask me. Hint #2: I only got involved because I noticed the names being thrown around are friends & business associates of mine. Rest assured they will not be used to sell somebody else’s classes. Hint #3: My statements were spot on. Trust me. I am done with this conversation.
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Paul A. Hotaling Alias Training & Security Services, LLC Paul@aliastraining.com 757-985-9586 www.aliastraining.com Last edited by va_dinger; 12-19-2012 at 11:43 AM.. |
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You are welcome to your opinion, and it will be considered as such. When you back it up with something aside from insults, character assassination and unsupported-assertions-presented-as-fact. they will be considered as such in that case also. Perhaps in your role as a promoter it might do you well to first note the difference. Paul, as far as I know you are a good guy running a successful business. I have no idea why you've chosen to insert yourself into a side issue having almost nothing to to do with the nature of your business, or the very excellent people you represent. The vitriol and nastiness is unnecessary and unprovoked. It's enough that you do good work, nothing else is necessary.
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| I don't pretend to be an "authority." I'm just a guy who trains a lot, shoots a lot and has a perspective. Check the ZombieTactics Channel on YouTube for all sorts of gun-related goodness CLICK HERE Last edited by ZombieTactics; 12-18-2012 at 6:10 PM.. |
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I believe its a question of credibility. Can an firearm instructor teach without ever seeing combat? Sure of course he can. Could be a good one too. But if that instructor invents or adopts out of the norm techniques or tactics or creates a program that is beyond his knowledge base than anyone has a right to question it. That is fair. I'd rather learn about business from Warren Buffet than the local community college business professor who's never run a business.
As for ZT's coach analogy, I can say Freddy Roach was a lousy boxer and he has trained many a champion, David Ledbetter (to my knowledge) never amounted to much as a golfer but he (at least when I was following golf over a decade ago) was one of the most sought after coaches in golf. All the top players including Tiger (when he was unstoppable) seeked him out. The difference between sport coaches and firearm instructors is night and day. If Tiger or Pac-Man receive poor training or some new invented technique what happens? They lose a large purse, metal, belt, ranking and so on. Ultimately its not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. If one receives poor instructor of some unproven technique in firefight, that is something entirely different. That can cost you or someone around you their life. At minimum it could cost you your financial livelihood or freedom. Therein lies the difference so I don't think the analogy is a good one. Again its credibility, those listed on the this post (Lamb/ defoor/ LAV etc) have it. They have it because of the teams they were on and the combat experience the have under their belt. Does being on a team make a good instructor? Of course not. But link me one bad AAR to this thread on any of those instructors mentioned. I doubt there are many. Also many of those listed have teaching experience whether it was because the wore a green beret (which is one of their main duties teaching guerilla armies) or were a senior instructor on their team or because Tigerswan or Blackwater hired them. I could be wrong but Hackathorn has no combat experience, but I'd train with him. Why? Because he has credibility and as such is endorsed by the likes of LAV and Howe among others. As for pricing, Pincus can demand anything he wants. My comment earlier was mentioned because its out of whack with the marketplace. Imagine if someone was looking to buy a high end car in the $100K range. What would people look at? Benz S class, BMW 7 series, Audi, Lexus, and so on. What if while looking at those cars some one mentioned that KIA had a new luxury car that was $120K. You'd do a double take and say WTF? As for the question whether military combat equates to self defense instruction. that's a legit question. I say yes. Those with military combat experience can teach us civies a thing or two. Obviously, most if not all of us will never take on a guy with a RPG, or have to take cover from a mortar attack. But one thing these guys can tell us is mindset (its the same whether taking on a bunch of drugged out somalies or a whacko breaking into your house). They can tell you what its like to fight through the fear and overcome it. They can tell you about how you'll get tunnel vision and your eyes will poop out of your socket when you get shot at or someone is pointing a gun at you. It goes on. I'm not sure why this question is even asked. Does one actually believe one is getting the "Delta" or "SEAL" or "SF" way when taking a course from these guys? Of course not. The tactics even in an advance course is really not much. Its basic stuff still- how to approach a corner, which knee to take, how to enter a room, etc. Pretty basic stuff for an assaulter. You don't learn about stacking up or flank an enemy's position etc. At least I haven't seen it. When I took a class with Howe he made mention in one instance this is a military scenario, now you can't do that if you're LEO or civie so this is what you have to do if you're those.... Everyone is different and is free to use their money as they see fit but for me I only have so much time and money I can spend on training. I want vetted, combat tested techniques so in the unlikely event I need to use them I will at least be confident I have a good chance of surviving. I do not need any theoretical untested fluff invented by someone who never even tried it in a competition let alone a fight. I don't have Ram's training budget nor he's incredibly impressive ammo budget to just go see for myself. I'll have to rely on reputation and the various AAR throughout the web to see who gets my money. Back to credibility, I'll let these videos speak for themselves: |
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ZT, you are more gracious than I.... and appreciate you taking the time to entertain Paul's hating.
I know a lot of guys with "cool t-shirt" backgrounds that suck as instructors. You'll note that most don't enter the instructor field, despite the tons of people eager to say they trained with someone with Tier 1 Experience. I also know a lot of guys with no background who are great instructors. *** Paul, you are very confused about a lot of things. Your hate has made you drift a bit.... your post is inaccurate and baiting and I don't have time for either this evening. If you have anything to ask about the home study course, feel free to ask. **** Ram, You've got my answers. CFS class is a pre-requisite. It is so for both safety and efficiency. -RJP |
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Unfortunately, the Fundamentals of Combat Focus Shooting course is not offered in SoCal in 2013 prior to the APH in Los Angeles in August 2013. I don't see Jeff Varner or much of anything from 10X Defense any more.
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
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Rob Pincus should be allowed to market his wares just like anyone else no matter if you agree with him or not. Larry Vickers said it best on M4C:
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
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Still looking forward to your complete review, Ramin. It will form a big part of my yes/no purchase decision.
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| I don't pretend to be an "authority." I'm just a guy who trains a lot, shoots a lot and has a perspective. Check the ZombieTactics Channel on YouTube for all sorts of gun-related goodness CLICK HERE |
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Paul Hotaling, are you always so obnoxious? What are YOUR qualifications, to be so judgmental about instructors? What military experience or law enforcement experience do you have? From what I can find, you don't have any. You are just a middle man for actual instructors who do have such experience. So please don't attempt to evaluate the abilities of instructors.
I'm sorry, I just couldn't read any more of Paul's rants without dropping the hammer on him. |
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